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lucid
Reply with quote  #1 
In my opinion the most important talk that Sam has ever given

I urge the curious individuals on this forum to find the time to watch and experience the full hour of this video, perhaps over nice glass of wine, and offer your feelings. I would be most interested. 




hasbeen
Reply with quote  #2 
Very good thanks for the link.
Lawlessone777
Reply with quote  #3 
I actually watched the video and it's pretty much your standard New Atheist preaching.....gratz? I mean the whole thing can be summarized with, "When you die nothing happens." *dramatic pause* "Religion is bad and wrong." *dramatic pause* "Atheism is making the world better." *dramatic pause". The whole video was pretty much that repeated for an hour.

I thought it was incredibly amusing when he said that people attacking "so called New Atheists" were actually worried about the grief of others, and implying that religion is simply a method of dealing with grief in a deluded manner was pretty funny. Yes, we think New Atheism is ridiculous because the other 90% of the planet is merely too unelightened to see that our belief in God is predicated on an emotional need to explain what happens after death. It's totally not because New Atheism is possibly one of the greatest crusades of anti-intellectualism in modern history. 

Dude this isn't wine worthy intellectualism, it's cheap beer and soda cracker preaching. The audiences sycophantic ability to burst into racaous applause and laughter at the slightest provocation was pretty telling. I kept expecting him to say, "Can I get an amen?!"
hasbeen
Reply with quote  #4 
Quote:
Dude this isn't wine worthy intellectualism, it's cheap beer and soda cracker preaching. The audiences sycophantic ability to burst into racaous applause and laughter at the slightest provocation was pretty telling. I kept expecting him to say, "Can I get an amen?!"


Maybe he should do a stand-up routine where he distorts and strawmans the arguments against his position for his sycophantic, head bobbing chuckling audience, is that wine worthy intellectualism?
Lawlessone777
Reply with quote  #5 
Quote:
Maybe he should do a stand-up routine where he distorts and strawmans the arguments against his position for his sycophantic, head bobbing chuckling audience, is that wine worthy intellectualism?

Dude that's basically what he did. lol
hasbeen
Reply with quote  #6 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawlessone777
Quote:
Maybe he should do a stand-up routine where he distorts and strawmans the arguments against his position for his sycophantic, head bobbing chuckling audience, is that wine worthy intellectualism?

Dude that's basically what he did. lol


Actually that was craig.
Lawlessone777
Reply with quote  #7 
We have a counterbalance to this kind of new atheist preaching on our side, it's called evangelism. We've got a lot more practice with it since we've been doing it a lot longer. If you're looking for an apologist who's more like Sam Harris in that he's less cerebral than Dr. Craig, but still very good on stage and quite good at appealing to emotion you should watch a video by Ravi Zacharias. I love his stuff.
hasbeen
Reply with quote  #8 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawlessone777
We have a counterbalance to this kind of new atheist preaching on our side, it's called evangelism. We've got a lot more practice with it since we've been doing it a lot longer. If you're looking for an apologist who's more like Sam Harris in that he's less cerebral than Dr. Craig, but still very good on stage and quite good at appealing to emotion you should watch a video by Ravi Zacharias. I love his stuff.


After watching Craig i do not see how you can consider him cerebral past a point or above Harris, however i obviously understand your desperate need to believe that.

Ravi Zacharias is certainly less polished than Craig and i do not see any reason to watch his particular act as Craig's puts on a far better performance as long as he can use formal rules to his advantage.
AtheisticSeeker
Reply with quote  #9 
Sam Harris is my favorite New Atheist.  His appeal to emotion and moral intution very closely matches my own.

Not to bring up Pop Psychology (which may well be a religion in and of itself), but Harris (like me, and, oddly enough...Jesus) seems to be an INFJ personality, and those of that persuasion tend to base their worldview on strong intuitions and feelings.

The more hardened sciency types (ie, Dawkins) are often INTJ's, and appeal mostly to cold, hard logic.  Incidently, Yahweh is often thought of as an INTJ.
Lawlessone777
Reply with quote  #10 
The difference is between stating a fact, or position, and supporting that fact, or position. Harris got up and stated that apologists attack new atheists because they're concerned for the grief of others. This is a completely meaningless statement, he doesn't support it, he doesn't offer up any evidence whatsoever, he's simply making a baseless assertion predicated upon his own bias of religion. You see Harris believes that because he assumes the "fact" of atheism, anything he speaks in a negative context against religion (even if completely bs) will not require any support or verification whatsoever. He can make broad, wide, sweeping statements all day long and the crowd will just keep applauding him.

When Craig makes an argument, or supports a premise, he's actually presenting material which has been placed up in peer-reviewed philosophical papers and discussed at length by philosophers and theologians. He quotes extensively from written material, providing proper citation and verification for his statements, and never makes any assertion without supporting that assertion through either logical deduction, or verifiable fact.

You see, there's a big difference between, "Religion is dumb." And "Atheism is dumb, now here are 5 philosophical arguments why, 4 scientific proofs which support those arguments, 3 historical facts which offer an inference to the best explanation, and volumes of written material on the subject supporting my statement."

That's the key difference between Harris and Craig. Craig has actually studied the subject they're talking about.
AtheisticSeeker
Reply with quote  #11 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawlessone777
That's the key difference between Harris and Craig. Craig has actually studied the subject they're talking about.


Actually, I think Harris and Craig are very illustrative of the Feeler vs Thinker.

If you look at the Notre Dame debate, it's as if they way they are wired in terms of thinking vs feeling basically makes it like they speak two different languages.

Notice that Harris was totally unaffected by Craig's strictly logical "knock down" argument.  So much so, that it didn't even register to him enough to even address it.

And notice that Craig seemed uninterested in addressing Harris' emotional critique of Christianity.  To Craig, it was all just a bunch of rhetoric; just emotional fluff, so to speak.
rsmartin
Reply with quote  #12 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawlessone777

When Craig makes an argument, or supports a premise, he's actually presenting material which has been placed up in peer-reviewed philosophical papers and discussed at length by philosophers and theologians. He quotes extensively from written material, providing proper citation and verification for his statements, and never makes any assertion without supporting that assertion through either logical deduction, or verifiable fact.



Documentations, please. Show me some examples.
hasbeen
Reply with quote  #13 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AtheisticSeeker

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawlessone777
That's the key difference between Harris and Craig. Craig has actually studied the subject they're talking about.


Actually, I think Harris and Craig are very illustrative of the Feeler vs Thinker.

If you look at the Notre Dame debate, it's as if they way they are wired in terms of thinking vs feeling basically makes it like they speak two different languages.

Notice that Harris was totally unaffected by Craig's strictly logical "knock down" argument.  So much so, that it didn't even register to him enough to even address it.

And notice that Craig seemed uninterested in addressing Harris' emotional critique of Christianity.  To Craig, it was all just a bunch of rhetoric; just emotional fluff, so to speak.


Harris actually mentions his actions and Craigs intent in his post debate remarks:

Quote:

While I believe I answered (or preempted) all of Craig’s substantive challenges, I’ve received a fair amount of criticism for not rebutting his remarks point for point. Generally speaking, my critics seem to have been duped by Craig’s opening statement, in which he presumed to narrow the topic of our debate (I later learned that he insisted upon speaking first and made many other demands. You can read an amusing, behind-the-scenes account here.)


Those who expected me to follow the path Craig cut in his opening remarks don’t seem to understand the game he was playing. He knew that if he began, “Here are 5 (bogus) points that Sam Harris must answer if he has a shred of self-respect,” this would leave me with a choice between delivering my prepared remarks, which I believed to be crucial, or wasting my time putting out the small fires he had set. If I stuck to my argument, as I mostly did, he could return in the next round to say, “You will notice that Dr. Harris entirely failed to address points 2 and 5. It is no wonder, because they make a mockery of his entire philosophy.”

As I observed once during the debate, but should have probably mentioned again, Craig employs other high school debating tricks to mislead the audience: He falsely summarizes what his opponent has said; he falsely claims that certain points have been conceded; and, in our debate, he falsely charged me with having wandered from the agreed upon topic. The fact that such tricks often work is a real weakness of the debate format, especially one in which the participants are unable to address one another directly.


Nevertheless, I believe I was right not to waste much time rebutting irrelevancies, correcting Craig’s distortions of my published work, or taking his words out of my mouth. Instead, I simply argued for a scientific conception of moral truth and against one based on the biblical God. This was, after all, the argument that the organizer’s at Notre Dame had invited me to make.


Lawlessone777
Reply with quote  #14 
Quote:
Documentations, please. Show me some examples.

Dude you're posting this on Dr. Craig website. Go to the tabs right above this post and check out Scholarly Articles, Debates, questions of the week, the Defenders Class, and his reasonable faith podcast. Am I the only one whose actually studied all the material he's put on this site?
Lawlessone777
Reply with quote  #15 
Quote:
Harris actually mentions his actions and Craigs intent in his post debate remarks:

I watched the entire debate. Harris entered into a debate where the actual debate topic was "Does Good come from God" to which he didn't even bother to address the subject, or confront any of Craig's debating points. Harris didn't even stay on topic, he just kept throwing out red herrings and typing on his computer. He was greatly criticised by theist and atheist alike for his unprofessional debating style.

This may come as a surprise to you, but in actual professional academia people expect you to support your arguments on stage, not just preach emotional gospel. Harris stepping into a professional academic debate with the same attitude he's used to being praised for in "in house" discussions at atheistic conferences and talks.
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