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Matthias
Reply with quote  #1 
Normally I hate semantic arguments, so I try to avoid this when it comes up, but it occurs to me that the following definition tracks fairly well who labels themselves, and is labelled by others, as atheists, without directly referring to the label itself:

An atheist is someone whose best estimate of the number of gods is zero

This seems to have a number of salutary qualities, enumerated as so. (Perhaps it may clarify to state that I consider myself a very weak prescriptivist - usage defines meaning, but common usage can be critiqued from the vantage point of improving communication. Words are tools.) 

1) It includes hard atheists and soft atheists. Some people, a minority of those who employ the atheist label, claim to be absolutely sure that God does not exist. In this case the label is understates, a bit like saying four is your best guess as to the sum of two and two, but an understatement is still a statement.

2) It includes positive and negative atheists. Some self-labelled atheists say there is positive evidence against God, others that there's not enough evidence to justify belief, because theism is a complex hypothesis and has a low prior probability. This definition encompasses both. 

3) It excludes rocks, infants, and chimpanzees. Rocks, infants, and apes all lack belief in God. (This might be arguable in the case of infants, but let's pass that over for now.) But this is because they presumably have no opinions on the matter at all. We do not normally label such entities atheist; some people are willing to count them as such, but they do not point to them as evidence for the superiority of the "lack of belief in God" classification, but rather accept it on account of thinking that classification superior on other grounds. 

4) It is agnostic on the burden of proof and straighforwardly reversible. Some people believe that atheism should carry the burden of proof. Other people believe that the burden of proof is against it. It would be good, I think, if that discussion could be carried out directly, rather than covertly. Further, I do not think it would be inappropriate to describe monotheists as those whose best estimate of the number of gods is one.

5) It includes some e.g. Buddhists but not others. Some self-described Buddhists are strict naturalists who believe in the Four Noble Truths and employ techniques from the Buddhist tradition to escape from suffering. Most self-described Buddhists' Buddhism is about praying to various gods for this-worldly goals and securing a better place in the afterlife. It seems intuitive, and I would strongly imagine would accord with self-description, to describe the first but not the second group as atheists. (Although see counterpoint 2.)

6) It accords with ordinary semantics of belief. Normally when we say that someone believes p we mean that they think that most likely p - not that they merely lack the belief that ~p, nor that they must be absolutely sure that ~p. So if atheism is the hypothesis that there are no gods, it seems reasonable to say that an atheist is one who thinks atheism is probably true. (Although see counterpoint 3.)

7) It is orthogonal to religion. This probably works for most other common definitions as well, but it is still important, as it helps separate out issues worth separating, and accords with common usage. A nontheist Friend is religious; a typical deist is not. 

There are a few problems with this definition that may lead to a better way to word it, although I do not think any of them harm the basic idea. (I have not thought extensively on the matter, however, and there are surely pros and cons I have not considered.) 

1) Depending on how "best estimate" is used it may either include a great number of agnostics who do not accept the atheist label or a great many negative atheists. If you suspend judgment on some question, do you have a best estimate of the answer? Is there a better phrase here that would more properly separate the one from the other? Or is the confusion here at, so to speak, the level of reality (or at least common language use) - that one could collect a great number of self-described agnostics (who do not call themselves atheists) and great number of self-described atheists whose actual beliefs, aside from the labels they assign them, do not differ? In that case a revisionist semantics is, as is often the case in philosophy, perhaps necessary. 

2) It is agnostic on the meaning of "god." This is arguably a good thing, as being able to say "well I'm an atheist about this definition but not this one" is often helpful, and here the common-use definitions are known to be inconsistent (while a revisionist project about it would be utterly infeasible.) 

3) Counting. If you're pretty damn sure that there are gods, and millions and millions of them, it seems pretty silly to call you anything but a polytheist. But you'd still might admit that there are more probably 0 than any particular positive number of gods, like 3,462,194 of them. Perhaps it might be better to say that the atheist's best guess about whether there are any gods or not is that there aren't.

4) Conceptual analysis is everything that's wrong with analytic philosophy and nothing good ever comes of it.
innerbling
Reply with quote  #2 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthias
An atheist is someone whose best estimate of the number of gods is zero.


This is not a correct definition however as something else follows from this as well namely that this person rejects revelational, aprior and meta knowledge. Thus her claim to knowledge is limited to autonomous human reasoning from sensory experience.

CrashTestAuto
Reply with quote  #3 
Nice work, I like most of what you said.  This isn't the kind of discussion I enjoy either, and I tend to find debates over the meaning of atheism fairly pointless, so I won't get too involved here.  This all looks very good so far though.
Lawlessone777
Reply with quote  #4 
Another one??

What about the definition in pretty much every encyclopaedia out there: "Atheism is the belief that there is no God."

Why is this such a hard definition to accept, it's pretty much spot on.
AtheisticSeeker
Reply with quote  #5 
Actually, as a math major, I have some qualms with this definition.

An atheist is someone whose best estimate of the number of gods is zero.
 
What if someone said that he felt the probability God exists is 40%.  What is he supposed to do?  Round down and get an estimate of "Zero Gods exist"?  Is he an atheist?  What if he believes in his heart nonetheless that God exists? 

What if I take the probability that God exists to be 5/6?  Do I round up and estimate that one God exists, and am therefore not an atheist?  Suppose you roll a die one time.  Do I find it likely that you didn't roll a 4?  Yes.  But do I believe you didn't roll a 4?  No! 



stephenmills1000
Reply with quote  #6 
I agree with Lawless here.

Regarding the OP definition, if I were to then ask an atheist how many gods they believe there are, they're response would be zero, i.e. none, i.e. there are no gods, i.e. there is no god.  Atheism & theism alike cannot deny they make assertions.
CrashTestAuto
Reply with quote  #7 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawlessone777
Another one??

What about the definition in pretty much every encyclopaedia out there: "Atheism is the belief that there is no God."

Why is this such a hard definition to accept, it's pretty much spot on.

Because it is useless.  Does that include weak atheists?  Does it include negative atheists?

Personally, I don't think there should be a word for atheism, much like there isn't a word for people who don't believe in astrology.  However, given the debate is usually set up as theism versus atheism, we need a coherent understanding of what we mean by atheism.
CrashTestAuto
Reply with quote  #8 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AtheisticSeeker
Actually, as a math major, I have some qualms with this definition.

An atheist is someone whose best estimate of the number of gods is zero.
 
What if someone said that he felt the probability God exists is 40%.  What is he supposed to do?  Round down and get an estimate of "Zero Gods exist"?  Is he an atheist?  What if he believes in his heart nonetheless that God exists? 

What if I take the probability that God exists to be 5/6?  Do I round up and estimate that one God exists, and am therefore not an atheist?  Suppose you roll a die one time.  Do I find it likely that you didn't roll a 4?  Yes.  But do I believe you didn't roll a 4?  No! 




I think in both of those cases you would answer 'I don't know', and thus be an agnostic.
Matthias
Reply with quote  #9 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AtheisticSeeker
Actually, as a math major, I have some qualms with this definition.

An atheist is someone whose best estimate of the number of gods is zero.
 
What if someone said that he felt the probability God exists is 40%.  What is he supposed to do?  Round down and get an estimate of "Zero Gods exist"?  Is he an atheist?  What if he believes in his heart nonetheless that God exists? 

What if I take the probability that God exists to be 5/6?  Do I round up and estimate that one God exists, and am therefore not an atheist?  Suppose you roll a die one time.  Do I find it likely that you didn't roll a 4?  Yes.  But do I believe you didn't roll a 4?  No! 

1) Yeah, counterpoint (3) from the OP; I agree.

2) The distinction between intellectual and gut convictions is important, but potentially cuts through attitudes about any proposition. I've found the term alief to be useful to think with.

3) Yeah, I think our general semantics about belief may require a higher probability than 51% (and certainly more than the mode, which is why "inference to the best explanation" seems like a bad epistemic principle.)
hasbeen
Reply with quote  #10 
Quote:
Originally Posted by stephenmills1000
I agree with Lawless here.

Regarding the OP definition, if I were to then ask an atheist how many gods they believe there are, they're response would be zero, i.e. none, i.e. there are no gods, i.e. there is no god.  Atheism & theism alike cannot deny they make assertions.


Or they could say they see no evidence for any.

Asserting their exists evidence there are no gods would technically be anti-theism although thats taken already i think.
stephenmills1000
Reply with quote  #11 

Quote:
Originally Posted by hasbeen
Quote:
Originally Posted by stephenmills1000
I agree with Lawless here.

Regarding the OP definition, if I were to then ask an atheist how many gods they believe there are, they're response would be zero, i.e. none, i.e. there are no gods, i.e. there is no god.  Atheism & theism alike cannot deny they make assertions.


Or they could say they see no evidence for any.

Asserting their exists evidence there are no gods would technically be anti-theism although thats taken already i think.

And this is fine to say...
Thus, they believe ________.
A) God does not exist
B) God exists
C) they can't be sure either way

And this is where your beliefs define you- A) Atheist, B) Theist, C) Agnostic.
Lawlessone777
Reply with quote  #12 
Quote:
Because it is useless.  Does that include weak atheists?  Does it include negative atheists?

Personally, I don't think there should be a word for atheism, much like there isn't a word for people who don't believe in astrology.  However, given the debate is usually set up as theism versus atheism, we need a coherent understanding of what we mean by atheism.

We have a coherent understanding of what an atheist is. An atheist is someone who does not believe that there is a God. This has been a functioning definition for thousands of years, and has only been called into question recently by New Atheists because they're seeking a respite from the complaints that they have no evidence or arguments with which to defend their case. Rather than find evidence, or develop arguments, its' much easier to simply redefine yourself so that, by definition, you don't need to give any arguments or evidence.

This is probably one of the more annoying parts of this new trend in atheism. What we see is Christians getting on stage and defending their worldview with arguments and evidence. We see Atheists getting on stage and defending why it's okay for them to have no arguments, or evidence, or simply declaring that they don't need arguments or evidence because how they define "atheist" precludes the needs for such things.

Honestly this exercise is such a glaringly obvious attempt at redefinition in order to avoid the burden of proof for your worldview that it just baffles me that atheists are somehow capable of justifying to themselves that its' anything else. Honestly if atheism (that is the belief that God does not exist) actually had a single leg to stand on we wouldn't be having these ridiculous attempts at changing the definition of english words to suit the needs of the unbeliever. They'd simply present their evidence for atheism.

Remember when Bill Clinton said that he wasn't technically lying when he said he didn't have sexual relations with his secretary because he "defined" sexual relations as different than the court did? You remember how everyone knew this was a blatant cop out because he was caught with his pants down? Notice how what he was saying was very, very similar to what atheists have begun to say nowadays?
innerbling
Reply with quote  #13 
Quote:
Personally, I don't think there should be a word for atheism, much like there isn't a word for people who don't believe in astrology.


This would be fallacious as from rejection of astrology it does not necessarily follow that one rejects theistic epistemological systems and claims to knowledge.

However from any form of non-theism, deism this follows necessarily.
innerbling
Reply with quote  #14 
Quote:
Honestly this exercise is such a glaringly obvious attempt at redefinition in order to avoid the burden of proof for your worldview that it just baffles me that atheists are somehow capable of justifying to themselves that its' anything else.


Yes but this will never work as long as we Christians remind that if a person claims to have any coherent argument about anything  then she needs to demonstrate a positive claim to this knowledge.

If such claim to knowledge is not forthcoming then that person has no rational warrant to say anything useful to anyone.
AtheisticSeeker
Reply with quote  #15 

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrashTestAuto
I think in both of those cases you would answer 'I don't know', and thus be an agnostic.


Yeah, but I don't like the label agnostic.  I mean, there's no cool new "New Agnosticism" movement.

However, if I define myself as an atheist, I can roll with the cats like Harris, Dennett, Hitch, and the Dawkmeister, and have casual relations with Kelly O'connor (aka Kasey Grant).

Plus, as an agnostic, I'm not a theist. 
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