|  New Posts
 
 
 


Reply
 
Author Comment
 
vmancha
Reply with quote  #1 
Id like to propose a debate for those in this forum over chemical evolution.
This is NOT a debate over natural selection. 
Natural selection presumes an already living system. Darwin left the concept of chemical evolution to future generations.
As it is 150yrs since his death we should certainly have some starting point as to how chemical evolution occurred. 
I am going to take the stance the evidence points to ID from a mathematical point of view. I will be providing mathematical proofs to this statement. 
For others in the forum to disagree with this they must first tear down this "inference to the best cause" approach  with an approach that at least gives a starting point to how this problem must be approached.
It is simply not enough to say "evolution did it" or we dont like "something out of nothing" therefore the processed of materialism must have done it we just do not know how.
We have to much information available to hide behind ignorance.
Please post an article you feels furthers chemical evolution and it is my hopes others will judge the article and critique the strengths,weaknesses and false assumptions if any.
It would do well for you to put your own observations of its strengths and weaknesses rather than have the rest do this for you.
Perhaps this will further our collective educations towards science rather than harden our positions collectively.
CrashTestAuto
Reply with quote  #2 
Cool, well I'll just watch as I'm not a chemist, but for the next debate over information none of us have, can I propose "What are the mathematical odds of an intelligent, perfect and infinitely complex entity existing with no cause and in a state which bears no resemblance to anything we have ever encountered?"

I'd then like to discuss the likelihood of millions of years of ancestors all coming together at exactly the right time, and combining exactly the right egg and sperm on every occasion to lead up to the birth of a person who would later post on the internet under the name 'vmancha'.  20 or so million sperm per 'coming together' taken to the power of millions of years of generations...  I may need a bigger calculator for this one.  Can we delay it a bit?
Matthias
Reply with quote  #3 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrashTestAuto
20 or so million sperm per 'coming together' taken to the power of millions of years of generations...  I may need a bigger calculator for this one.  Can we delay it a bit?

Upper bound of 1/1.8 x 10^403617 from 1MYA, according to this source, which only looks at sperm and not eggs or survival.
CrashTestAuto
Reply with quote  #4 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthias
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrashTestAuto
20 or so million sperm per 'coming together' taken to the power of millions of years of generations...  I may need a bigger calculator for this one.  Can we delay it a bit?

Upper bound of 1/1.8 x 10^403617 from 1MYA, according to this source, which only looks at sperm and not eggs or survival.

Nice.  Well that saves me on a calculator
tcampen
Reply with quote  #5 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthias
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrashTestAuto
20 or so million sperm per 'coming together' taken to the power of millions of years of generations...  I may need a bigger calculator for this one.  Can we delay it a bit?

Upper bound of 1/1.8 x 10^403617 from 1MYA, according to this source, which only looks at sperm and not eggs or survival.

I don't know if the calculations are correct, but OMG, that's hilarious!  Well done. If correct, it supports my point in the "Nothing" thread with harvey.
vmancha
Reply with quote  #6 

Rates of decomposition of ribose and other sugars: implications for chemical evolution

  1. S L Miller

+Author Affiliations

  1. Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry, University of California at San Diego, La Jolla 92093-0317, USA.

Abstract

The existence of the RNA world, in which RNA acted as a catalyst as well as an informational macromolecule, assumes a large prebiotic source of ribose or the existence of pre-RNA molecules with backbones different from ribose-phosphate. The generally accepted prebiotic synthesis of ribose, the formose reaction, yields numerous sugars without any selectivity. Even if there were a selective synthesis of ribose, there is still the problem of stability. Sugars are known to be unstable in strong acid or base, but there are few data for neutral solutions. Therefore, we have measured the rate of decomposition of ribose between pH 4 and pH 8 from 40 degrees C to 120 degrees C. The ribose half-lives are very short (73 min at pH 7.0 and 100 degrees C and 44 years at pH 7.0 and 0 degrees C). The other aldopentoses and aldohexoses have half-lives within an order of magnitude of these values, as do 2-deoxyribose, ribose 5-phosphate, and ribose 2,4-bisphosphate. These results suggest that the backbone of the first genetic material could not have contained ribose or other sugars because of their instability. link


This article shows ribose is to unstable to have allowed for the origination of the DNA backbone under purely naturalistic mechanisms. Degradation overwhelms the building process in a lab setting. 

This is observational science to the counter of the process of chemical evolution occurring by stochastic mechanisms.

The weakness of the article is it does not show calculations as to probability like Crash tried. However it does lend to the best observations are that chemical evolution is impossibly probable so as to be a materialistic miracle. 

ID on the other hand provides a coupling mechanism albeit not understood but evidenced in the things we see.

ID would postulate the origination of such a coupling of such an organizational force would not be observable. In this fashion it is consistent with current cosmological models of not being able to observe the emergent forces involved before the BB.

vmancha
Reply with quote  #7 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrashTestAuto

I'd then like to discuss the likelihood of millions of years of ancestors all coming together at exactly the right time, and combining exactly the right egg and sperm on every occasion to lead up to the birth of a person who would later post on the internet under the name 'vmancha'.  20 or so million sperm per 'coming together' taken to the power of millions of years of generations...  I may need a bigger calculator for this one.  Can we delay it a bit?
While you are at it how does the sperm that has a good or bad design go back to the male to let him know to make adjustments in future sperm?
Matthias
Reply with quote  #8 
Quote:
Originally Posted by vmancha
While you are at it how does the sperm that has a good or bad design go back to the male to let him know to make adjustments in future sperm?

This is a hotly contested question, with at least two main theories debated in the literature. I can't really do either of them justice, but I can provide a rough overview.

The first theory is that when a poorly designed spermatazoa fails to inseminate, it swims into a small pouch in the left labia maiora (or if unable to do so, is guided to it by a group of symbiotic batcteria.) Once there the sensitive nervous system - as discovered by evolutionary psychology and creation science, only men like sex, so all the nerve endings on the vagina are clearly not for pleasure - collects precise data on each sperm so interred and transmits it to the brain for analysis during REM. Once the analysis is concluded, the information is relayed down to the bad sperm hangar, where symbiotic viruses who live off the electrical impulses thus sent convert it to RNA form, which they inject into the analyzed sperm. In addition to containing the analysis, this tells the sperm to swim back into the penis the next time intercourse occurs. (Of course, if this is a different male, he would be effectively stealing sperm R&D work from the last guy. This is why sexual jealousy evolved.) Once this happens symbiotic viruses in the male devour the returned sperm and start turning out copies of the messenger RNA, which they inject into the right teste, which is in charge of sperm design. Through a system so intricate and specifically complex that it could not possibly have evolved by naturalistic means, this feedback from the female is loaded into a sort of RNA database which updates based on each model report that comes back, and which produces innumerate copies of yet another RNA strand (newly issued each sperm production cycle) which are then injected into to germ cells just after they've undergone mitosis. Each recombined set of chromosomes attempts to form a TNA (tririboneucleic acid) with the injected RNA; if they fail, indicating a set of set of genes judged suboptimal, they recombine again. (There is some interesting stuff going on here with a sexual conflict of interests, where the female's feedback RNA may have been optimized for tricking the male into selecting genes that would most help our her genes rather than his, but usually this works to the benefit of both, preventing combinations that would result in birth defects. This system is so effective, in fact, that experimental theologians have determined that 90% of birth defects result from the supernatural intervention of God, most often as collective punishment of the human race for its poor stewardship of the environment.) The same genetic strand also guides the transformation of the germ cell into sperm according to the most recent specifications. If possible, the energy used to "wind up" sperm for their swim is ATP harvested from proteins broken down from the consecrated body of Christ (this is why Catholics have so many children.) At the end of this cycle, the male has several million lean, mean, and sleekly designed sperm, like the latest line of Mercedes. 

The other theory is that, through some yet-unspecified mechanism, males whose sperm doesn't work don't have many offspring. 
vmancha
Reply with quote  #9 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthias
Quote:
Originally Posted by vmancha
While you are at it how does the sperm that has a good or bad design go back to the male to let him know to make adjustments in future sperm?

This is a hotly contested question, with at least two main theories debated in the literature. I can't really do either of them justice, but I can provide a rough overview.

So do you have an article that shows this happening?
I mean you have to show the sperm with its complex machinery evolved not knowing what the egg looked like or the uterus to get to the egg. You wound have to form DNA information pack it in the sperm. You have to know the sperm and egg have a key lock mechanism like an antibody antigen reaction. How can any sperm have this complexity to begin with?
We can not even come close to know where the information for the DNA molecule much less the whole human genome pack it up in a missile like device that is more complex than any nuclear sub man could invent and send it on a mission into an unknown environment with the already correct equipment for the job-fertilization.
Until you can show a "reasonable" path to this solution you have to conclude ID is a more plausible explanation . After  all the material for the chemical substrates came out of nothing - the BB.
CrashTestAuto
Reply with quote  #10 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthias

This is a hotly contested question, with at least two main theories debated in the literature. I can't really do either of them justice, but I can provide a rough overview.

The first theory is that when a poorly designed spermatazoa fails to inseminate, it swims into a small pouch in the left labia maiora (or if unable to do so, is guided to it by a group of symbiotic batcteria.) Once there the sensitive nervous system - as discovered by evolutionary psychology and creation science, only men like sex, so all the nerve endings on the vagina are clearly not for pleasure - collects precise data on each sperm so interred and transmits it to the brain for analysis during REM. Once the analysis is concluded, the information is relayed down to the bad sperm hangar, where symbiotic viruses who live off the electrical impulses thus sent convert it to RNA form, which they inject into the analyzed sperm. In addition to containing the analysis, this tells the sperm to swim back into the penis the next time intercourse occurs. (Of course, if this is a different male, he would be effectively stealing sperm R&D work from the last guy. This is why sexual jealousy evolved.) Once this happens symbiotic viruses in the male devour the returned sperm and start turning out copies of the messenger RNA, which they inject into the right teste, which is in charge of sperm design. Through a system so intricate and specifically complex that it could not possibly have evolved by naturalistic means, this feedback from the female is loaded into a sort of RNA database which updates based on each model report that comes back, and which produces innumerate copies of yet another RNA strand (newly issued each sperm production cycle) which are then injected into to germ cells just after they've undergone mitosis. Each recombined set of chromosomes attempts to form a TNA (tririboneucleic acid) with the injected RNA; if they fail, indicating a set of set of genes judged suboptimal, they recombine again. (There is some interesting stuff going on here with a sexual conflict of interests, where the female's feedback RNA may have been optimized for tricking the male into selecting genes that would most help our her genes rather than his, but usually this works to the benefit of both, preventing combinations that would result in birth defects. This system is so effective, in fact, that experimental theologians have determined that 90% of birth defects result from the supernatural intervention of God, most often as collective punishment of the human race for its poor stewardship of the environment.) The same genetic strand also guides the transformation of the germ cell into sperm according to the most recent specifications. If possible, the energy used to "wind up" sperm for their swim is ATP harvested from proteins broken down from the consecrated body of Christ (this is why Catholics have so many children.) At the end of this cycle, the male has several million lean, mean, and sleekly designed sperm, like the latest line of Mercedes. 

The other theory is that, through some yet-unspecified mechanism, males whose sperm doesn't work don't have many offspring. 



I knew what was coming, but that final sentence was amazingly well phrased.
vmancha
Reply with quote  #11 
I am still waiting for articles from a materialistic viewpoint showing how chemical evolution works.
Face it guys you have lost the argument. Thanks for playing there are some nice party gifts however.
Route_70
Reply with quote  #12 
Quote:
Originally Posted by vmancha
... you have lost the argument ...

Once again, a demonstration of what I have been saying all along:  theists, ID proponents, creationists, Christians, whatever ... are more interested in being right than doing right.  Winning the argument is more important to them than getting to the truth.
itsallgood
Reply with quote  #13 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Route_70
Quote:
Originally Posted by vmancha
... you have lost the argument ...

Once again, a demonstration of what I have been saying all along:  theists, ID proponents, creationists, Christians, whatever ... are more interested in being right than doing right.  Winning the argument is more important to them than getting to the truth.


The entire thread was designed to be lost, he asserted he would provide mathematical evidence for ID (ignoring its totally flawed as was pointed out almost instantly) so he had a clear position he could claim a win from.

He then asked a loaded question demanding proof of chemical evolution knowing that it is still a gap even though it is being researched.

All that was proven is that once again ID proponents are utterly and shamelessly dishonest.
vmancha
Reply with quote  #14 

Quote:
Originally Posted by itsallgood
He then asked a loaded question demanding proof of chemical evolution knowing that it is still a gap even though it is being researched.

Show me the active research then that at least has some possibility of a solution.
Doing a Journal search on this shows there is almost no research on this as there is no reasonable way to deal with know laws of chemical reactions. Noting of interest since Miller has happened 60 yrs ago and it was a colossal failure.
What you continue to fail to understand is the math is against your position.
So cut the ad hom and put up an article or quieten up.

vmancha
Reply with quote  #15 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Route_70
 Winning the argument is more important to them than getting to the truth.

Show me the truth then. Your side has no clue as to how chemical evolution could have even happened. Only possibilities which have all been destroyed. Its a total dead end.

Previous Topic | Next Topic
Print
Reply

Quick Navigation:



Important: The Reasonable Faith forums have moved to: www.reasonablefaith.org/forums/






Powered by Website Toolbox - Create a Website Forum Hosting, Guestbook Hosting, or Website Chat Room for your website.