| CrashTestAuto |
| Posted 05/04/12 at 08:57 PM | Reply with quote #1 |
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| Okay, this keeps coming up, and it really needs its own discussion. I want to make some thing very clear.
Atheist faith:
1) An external world exists (maybe) 2) I exist (maybe) 3) Nature acts uniformly (maybe)
That's it. Those are the only three basic premises that are required for an atheistic worldview that are not supported by evidence. Even those three can be dismissed if you want to, and at least the first two are arguably defensible using evidence.
Theist faith:
1) An external world exists (maybe) 2) I exist. 3) Nature acts uniformly (maybe) 4) The Holy Spirit has revealed itself to me (maybe) 5) God exists (possibly based on 4) 6) God is good. 7) Jesus is the son of God (possibly based on 4)
So, all of the premises required of the atheist, plus a bunch more. Now, here's the more important bit.
Reasons atheists put faith in the truth of a proposition:
1) It is practical or reasonable to do so.
Reasons theists put faith in the truth of a proposition:
1) It is practical or reasonable to do so. 2) Faith is praised as a virtue. 3) Not having faith is punishable by eternal torment.
So, once again, the same reasoning applies to both groups, but theists have the added element of infinite carrots and sticks.
Now, I have said this simply (almost cartoonishly), but this for some reason doesn't seem to be obvious to people. Atheists do not have, require, or rely upon anywhere near the same kind of, nor extent of, faith as theists.
I apologise for the bluntness of this one, but this issue has been getting frustrating. |
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| johnBee |
| Posted 05/04/12 at 09:42 PM | Reply with quote #2 |
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I've always maintained and continue to do so... When it comes to the origins of life, everyone is subject to the same limitations. Which is why I personally find any and all arguements pertaining to the issue to be nothing more than a diversion or pass-time.
Therefore, under the current terms, the question cannot be what is true, but more accurately, what we choose to believe.
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| Godboy |
| Posted 05/04/12 at 09:58 PM | Reply with quote #3 |
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I'll assume--based on your expression "not supported by evidence"--that you are defining "faith" as belief without evidence. Going on this assumption, I'll continue with the post.
Your three examples are not actually intrinsically wedded to atheism; you can be an atheist and deny all three. For instance, all solipsists (a solipsist is one who believes that nothing exists except the self--hence a denial of the external world) are atheists. Likewise, there's seemingly no prima facie inconsistency between an existential denial of God and that of one's self. And finally, an atheist can easily deny both the existence of God and a natural causal order.
Perhaps you could say that a properly basic assumption to which all atheists must keep is that the nonexistence of God is logically possible, a proposition which perfect being theologians deny and which doesn't seem to be evidentially supported at all.
As for your broad generalization of theism, without going into too much detail, I would disagree that those propositions are all evidentially unsupported. But I think the bigger issue is that you seem to be misunderstanding what "faith" means to Christians. It's not endorsing things that you know to be unjustified; it's trust in God, the person with whom you can be in fellowship and with whose existence you can sustain hope in the meaningfulness of your own life. The reason to have faith, in fact, is because the evidence of God and his goodness, at least for certain Christians, is so compelling. Similarly, I have faith in my parents, because they've shown themselves time and time again to be trustworthy. In these terms, you really can't, as your wording indicates, put faith in a proposition, because propositions are not capable of a interpersonal relationships.
So the real question you should be raising is whose worldview is better supported, not simply whose axiomatic assumptions are greater in number. Even if it was the case that my worldview as opposed to yours necessitated an axiom schema, it doesn't necessarily follow that my worldview is less justified than yours.
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| Physicist |
| Posted 05/04/12 at 10:28 PM | Reply with quote #4 |
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| Nice post CrashTestAuto!
It seems clear that everyone, theists and atheists included, must assume at the very least the 3 premises you listed. I would very much hesitate to call these 'faith based', as they seem to undermine every element of humanity, and are common to both the believer and the non-believer.
Or, if you prefer to call them 'faith', as many theists do, I think we need another name for the superfluous premises that theists accept without reason. |
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| Physicist |
| Posted 05/04/12 at 10:40 PM | Reply with quote #5 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by Godboy So the real question you should be raising is whose worldview is better supported, not simply counting the number of axiomatic assumptions. For example, are you a naturalism? If so, why is your evidence for naturalism better than my evidence for supernaturalism?
I disagree actually. If everything we observe, as humans, can be explained, or understood, by assuming a minimal number of premises, then this lends truth to the idea that these premises are truly fundamental.
I don't quite understand what you mean by evidence 'for naturalism'. It seems, to me, to be quite similar to asking for evidence 'against God'. Are you asking for me to disprove the possibility of the supernatural world? Or to prove that the natural world is the only thing that could possibly exist? I think these are meaningless questions with no answer.
I think it's more helpful to ask which set of premises is adequate in explaining our universe, and shedding the premises that are superfluous.
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| Godboy |
| Posted 05/04/12 at 10:49 PM | Reply with quote #6 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by Physicist aka RPF88 aka Trans22 aka feynman aka WLCFanI disagree actually. If everything we observe, as humans, can be explained, or understood, by assuming a minimal number of premises, then this lends truth to the idea that these premises are truly fundamental.
That your explanation has a lesser number of assumptions in no way entails that your explanation is true over mine; it could be that the true explanation actually requires those auxiliary assumptions, however many there may be. You are going on a popularized version of Ockham's Razor, i.e., the simpler explanation is always or probably the best, that really isn't true.
Quote: I don't quite understand what you mean by evidence 'for naturalism'. It seems, to me, to be quite similar to asking for evidence 'against God'. Are you asking for me to disprove the possibility of the supernatural world? Or to prove that the natural world is the only thing that could possibly exist? I think these are meaningless questions with no answer.
If someone claims that everything can be explained in natural scientific terms, then s/he shoulders the burden of proving that universal claim to be true.
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| Physicist |
| Posted 05/04/12 at 11:01 PM | Reply with quote #7 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by Godboy That your explanation has a lesser number of assumptions in no way entails that your explanation is true over mine; it could be that the true explanation actually requires those auxiliary assumptions, however many there may be.
Ah! Not so. What I said is that if everything we encounter can be satisfactorily described by these basic premises, then reason dictates we should need not incorporate more premises. And as you can see, there is absolutely nothing that we know of that:
a) cannot be described naturally b) can only be described supernaturally
Therefore to posit premises that allow for supernatural explanations is redundant.
Quote: If someone claims that everything can be explained in natural scientific terms, then s/he shoulders the burden of proving that universal claim to be true.
I agree; my point is that it doesn't make sense to speak about evidence for naturalism. What sort of evidence could possibly prove that the natural world is all that exists?
In that sense, I suppose I'm a 'weak naturalist' or perhaps an 'agnostic naturalist.' I believe that the natural world is all that exists because I haven't seen anything that contradicts this idea. |
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| Godboy |
| Posted 05/04/12 at 11:21 PM | Reply with quote #8 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by Physicist aka RPF88 aka Trans22 aka feynman aka WLCFanAh! Not so. What I said is that if everything we encounter can be satisfactorily described by these basic premises, then reason dictates we should need not incorporate more premises.
That your description has a lesser number of premises in no way entails that your description is more "satisfactory" than mine; it could be that the more satisfactory description actually requires those auxiliary premises, however many there may be.
Quote: And as you can see, there is absolutely nothing that we know of that:
a) cannot be described naturally b) can only be described supernaturally
Who's "we"? If by "we," you are referring to naturalists, then of course you'll believe that everything thus far experienced has a natural explanation, lest you contradict the worldview you've already accepted. But you need to actually demonstrate the truth of your position, not just assert that everything of which we're aware has a natural explanation.
If you're referring to the general populous, then you are incorrect; most of the world's people believe in God, and God cannot be explained in natural scientific terms. So at the end of day, you are just asserting that nobody is justified in believing in God, which requires you to actually disprove the arguments for His existence and/or furnish an argument for His nonexistence.
(And I haven't even mentioned other non-natural entities, such as abstract objects.)
Quote: Therefore to posit premises that allow for supernatural explanations is redundant
That doesn't even follow from your premises (a) and (b). It's a total non-sequitur. Even if we assume your premise to be true, you still cannot get to your conclusion:
1) Everything we've experienced thus far is natural. ::. Therefore, nothing is supernatural.
Or
1) Everything we've experienced thus far is natural. ::. Therefore, it's more probable than not that nothing is supernatural.
In both cases, the conclusion does not follow from (1). That's like arguing that all the horses I've experienced so far have been white, and therefore all horses are white.
Quote: I agree; my point is that it doesn't make sense to speak about evidence for naturalism. What sort of evidence could possibly prove that the natural world is all that exists?
For example, if you could show that the idea of supernatural objects conceals a logical contradiction, then you know that there are no possible worlds where supernatural objects exist. So what reason do you have to think that naturalism is true?
Quote: In that sense, I suppose I'm a 'weak naturalist' or perhaps an 'agnostic naturalist.' I believe that the natural world is all that exists because I haven't seen anything that contradicts this idea.
That's subjective. I could also say that I haven't seen anything that contradicts theism; does that mean that theism is true, simply because I've not seen anything that contradicts it? |
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| Physicist |
| Posted 05/05/12 at 12:40 AM | Reply with quote #9 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by Godboy That your description has a lesser number of premises in no way entails that your description is more "satisfactory" than mine; it could be that the more satisfactory description actually requires those auxiliary premises, however many there may be.
Once again I said that if we can describe a particular set of phenomena by a basic set of premises, there is no need to add superfluous ones. Obviously if a phenomena couldn't be described by the basic set, we would need to add some premises to our set.
So, yes, a description really is more satisfactory if it makes the least number of assumptions, provided it adequately describes all known phenomena.
Quote: Who's "we"? If by "we," you are referring to naturalists, then of course you'll believe that everything thus far experienced has a natural explanation, lest you contradict the worldview you've already accepted. But you need to actually demonstrate the truth of your position, not just assert that everything of which we're aware has a natural explanation.
Do you, or anyone else, know of a real phenomena that cannot be explained or described by natural means?
Quote: If you're referring to the general populous, then you are incorrect; most of the world's people believe in God, and God cannot be explained in natural scientific terms. So at the end of day, you are just asserting that nobody is justified in believing in God, which requires you to actually disprove the arguments for His existence.
Naturalism need only describe things that actually exist. Show me concrete proof that God exists, and then I think we have a good case against naturalism!
Quote: In both cases, the conclusion does not follow from (1). That's like arguing that all the horses I've experienced so far have been white, and therefore all horses are white.
I believe I've already tried to explain this to you. I don't recognize the need to prove that everything that could possibly exist must be natural in origin; this seems to me to be a completely foolish endeavour. In addition, I don't claim that every possible thing must be natural in origin, only that no exception has been found as of yet.
Quote: For example, if you could show that the idea of supernatural objects conceals a logical contradiction, then you know that there are no possible worlds where supernatural objects exist. So what reason do you have to think that naturalism is true?
Again, I don't hold the position that only the natural world exists. Only that everything that 'we' (science, people, you and I) have discovered can be understood within a naturalistic framework. This difference is known as (correct me if I'm wrong) metaphysical versus methodological naturalism.
Quote: That's subjective. I could also say that I haven't seen anything that contradicts theism; does that mean that theism is true, simply because I've not seen anything that contradicts it?
That's not quite fair, Godboy. What I mean is that you and I, people like us, and science hasn't found a single phenomenon that cannot be adequately explained by natural means. And no, your analogy doesn't work for the simple reason that you haven't shown theism to be true in the first place; unlike the natural world, where both you and I agree on its existence. |
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| Chris9809 |
| Posted 05/05/12 at 02:19 AM | Reply with quote #10 |
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That sounds more like agnosticism. Then really, for someone to declare there isn't a God would take vastly more faith than it would to declare that there is. Me for example; I'm very much convinced there is a God based on argument, and personal experience. That isn't to say there really is one, but thus far the alternative has not only been unconvincing, but rather bland to be honest.
But hey, to each his own.
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| Godboy |
| Posted 05/05/12 at 07:38 AM | Reply with quote #11 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by Physicist aka RPF88 aka Trans22 aka feynman aka WLCFanSo, yes, a description really is more satisfactory if it makes the least number of assumptions, provided it adequately describes all known phenomena.
That your description has a lesser number of assumptions in no way entails that your description "adequately describes all known phenomena"; it could be that the more adequate description actually requires those auxiliary premises, however many there may be.
Quote: Do you, or anyone else, know of a real phenomena that cannot be explained or described by natural means?
God.
Quote: Naturalism need only describe things that actually exist. Show me concrete proof that God exists, and then I think we have a good case against naturalism!
Naturalism isn't an object that describes things; it's a worldview according to which everything has a natural explanation. The actual description is furnished by practitioners, not those who hold that it's possible in principle for practitioners to explain everything in natural scientific terms.
For you to even begin sustaining the claim that there is no proof that God exists, you need to actually disprove some of the arguments; have you actually done that, or are you just asserting that there is no proof that God exists? Or maybe you are just unfamiliar with the arguments. In truth, even if all of the arguments failed, that doesn't that necessarily imply that God doesn't exist. Perhaps you can furnish an argument for the nonexistence of God, or perhaps the nonexistence of anything that cannot be explained in natural scientific terms.
Quote: I believe I've already tried to explain this to you. I don't recognize the need to prove that everything that could possibly exist must be natural in origin; this seems to me to be a completely foolish endeavour. In addition, I don't claim that every possible thing must be natural in origin, only that no exception has been found as of yet.
I don't believe I ever pressed you to prove that everything that could possibly exist must have a natural explanation. I might have said that one way to prove that naturalism is true would be to show that supernatural objects conceal a logical contradiction, from which it would follow that everything that could possibly exist would have a natural explanation, but that wasn't to say that it would be the only way to vindicate your position.
But my point was that your argument was fallacious, an obvious non-sequitur. Even if I granted you the premise that we've yet to discover anything non-natural, it does not follow that nothing is supernatural or that it's more probable than not that nothing is supernatural.
Quote: Again, I don't hold the position that only the natural world exists. Only that everything that 'we' (science, people, you and I) have discovered can be understood within a naturalistic framework. This difference is known as (correct me if I'm wrong) metaphysical versus methodological naturalism.
Again, you are incorrect when you say "people" or "you and I," because most people believe in God and you've neither shown that the actual arguments for God's existence are inadequate, nor that there are any plausible reasons to believe that God doesn't exist. And as I've said, even if I granted you that premise, your conclusion wouldn't follow. It would be like saying that all horses are white because I've yet to see any horse that's not white.
And no, methodological naturalism has nothing to do with this. Methodological naturalism is a method of inquiry employed by some scientists. It's not a metaphysical position; it intrinsically postulates neither the existence nor nonexistence of supernatural things. The philosophical conclusion is involved in metaphysical naturalism, the belief that everything has a natural explanation, which is what you've been endorsing here (methodological naturalism is not a metaphysical worldview that can be endorsed--you can only endorse it as a practical method, open to both theists and atheists alike.
Quote: That's not quite fair, Godboy. What I mean is that you and I, people like us, and science hasn't found a single phenomenon that cannot be adequately explained by natural means. And no, your analogy doesn't work for the simple reason that you haven't shown theism to be true in the first place; unlike the natural world, where both you and I agree on its existence.
Again, you are merely asserting that theism hasn't been shown to be true. For you to begin sustaining this, you need to actually disprove some of the arguments and provide some good reasons for believing that God doesn't exist. Since you are at this website, there are plenty of resources at your disposal. To begin, go ahead and listen to Dr. Craig's podcasts, and then start a new topic giving your best objection to his arguments. |
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| CrashTestAuto |
| Posted 05/05/12 at 07:57 AM | Reply with quote #12 |
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A thoughtful post, which I'll address in points:
Quote: Originally Posted by GodboyI'll assume--based on your expression "not supported by evidence"--that you are defining "faith" as belief without evidence. Going on this assumption, I'll continue with the post.
Your three examples are not actually intrinsically wedded to atheism; you can be an atheist and deny all three. For instance, all solipsists (a solipsist is one who believes that nothing exists except the self--hence a denial of the external world) are atheists. Likewise, there's seemingly no prima facie inconsistency between an existential denial of God and that of one's self. And finally, an atheist can easily deny both the existence of God and a natural causal order.
I agree, and actually (perhaps too vaguely) intended this when I said "Even those three can be dismissed if you want to".
Quote:
Perhaps you could say that a properly basic assumption to which all atheists must keep is that the nonexistence of God is logically possible, a proposition which perfect being theologians deny and which doesn't seem to be evidentially supported at all.
Burden of proof issue. Lack of belief does not require faith in logical possibility that something might not exist. You do not require faith in the possibility that a flying pink unicorn does not exist to lack a belief in it. You certainly don't need to evidentially support this possibility in order to lack such belief.
A strong atheist might have to establish such a premise. But my post clearly isn't directed at strong atheists. Regardless, the only premise I require to move from weak to strong is "God is incompatible with the existence of suffering", which is not faith based either.
Quote:
As for your broad generalization of theism, without going into too much detail, I would disagree that those propositions are all evidentially unsupported. But I think the bigger issue is that you seem to be misunderstanding what "faith" means to Christians. It's not endorsing things that you know to be unjustified; it's trust in God, the person with whom you can be in fellowship and with whose existence you can sustain hope in the meaningfulness of your own life. The reason to have faith, in fact, is because the evidence of God and his goodness, at least for certain Christians, is so compelling. Similarly, I have faith in my parents, because they've shown themselves time and time again to be trustworthy. In these terms, you really can't, as your wording indicates, put faith in a proposition, because propositions are not capable of a interpersonal relationships.
So the real question you should be raising is whose worldview is better supported, not simply whose axiomatic assumptions are greater in number. Even if it was the case that my worldview as opposed to yours necessitated an axiom schema, it doesn't necessarily follow that my worldview is less justified than yours.
I wasn't trying to suggest that they were all evidentially unsupported, I was talking about faith in the context you assumed I was. Faith first, evidence second, a la the recent criticism of Craig.
Now, you might argue that your interpretation of faith is purely one of trust, but I believe it is disingenuous to say that this is the Christian interpretation. Firstly, empirically we can see that Chrsitians do use faith in the sense of 'lack of evidence'. Secondly, we know (ish) that our parents exist, and thus it makes no sense to mean 'lack of evidence' when we refer to them. Thirdly, we know that Christians discuss the nonexistence of God as a serious issue, in the way our parents are not, this is the basis of Craig's career. Finally, if faith in the sense of lack of evidence is not central to Christianity, then why doesn't God show Himself?
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| Godboy |
| Posted 05/05/12 at 08:34 AM | Reply with quote #13 |
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| [QUOTE=CrashTestAuto] Burden of proof issue. Lack of belief does not require faith in logical possibility that something might not exist.[/QUOTE]
Actually, it does. Minimally, a prerequisite to not believing in something is that it's nonexistence is possible; if you didn't believe that the nonexistence of God was possible (i.e., if you believed God's nonexistence was impossible), then by logical necessity you'd have to believe that God exists. Similarly, I couldn't lack belief in a unicorn unless I believed that it was logically possible for a unicorn to not exist.
The only way you could escape this corner is if you claimed that you merely believe in the epistemic possibility of God's nonexistence, i.e., "God could possibly not exist, as far as I know."
[QUOTE]Now, you might argue that your interpretation of faith is purely one of trust, but I believe it is disingenuous to say that this is the Christian interpretation. [/QUOTE]
My interpretation of "faith" is supported in Reformed Theology doctrinal statements and is consistent with what's written in the Vatican Council.
Here's a good read for you. Also, some quotes:
"Faith in God then, is having the kind of trust and confidence in God and in Christ that leads you to commit your whole soul to Him as Saviour (Justifier, Cleanser, Healer, Deliverer) and Lord (Master, King). In the general sense of the word, to have faith is to believe in something or someone, to fully trust, to be so confident that you base your actions on what you believe. To have faith is to be fully convinced of the truthfulness and reliability of that in which you believe (http://www.christian-faith.com/forjesus/faith-in-god)."
"(Pistis, fides). In the Old Testament, the Hebrew means essentially steadfastness, cf. Exodus 17:12, where it is used to describe the strengthening of Moses' hands; hence it comes to mean faithfulness, whether of God towards man (Deuteronomy 32:4) or of man towards God (Psalm 118:30). As signifying man's attitude towards God it means trustfulness or fiducia. It would, however, be illogical to conclude that the word cannot, and does not, mean belief or faith in the Old Testament for it is clear that we cannot put trust in a person's promises without previously assenting to or believing in that person's claim to such confidence. Hence even if it could be proved that the Hebrew does not in itself contain the notion of belief, it must necessarily presuppose it. But that the word does itself contain the notion of belief is clear from the use of the radical, which in the causative conjugation, or Hiph'il, means "to believe", e.g. Genesis 15:6, and Deuteronomy 1:32, in which latter passage the two meanings — viz. of believing and of trusting — are combined. That the noun itself often means faith or belief, is clear from Habakkuk 2:4, where the context demands it. The witness of the Septuagint is decisive; they render the verb by pisteuo, and the noun by pistis; and here again the two factors, faith and trust, are connoted by the same term. But that even in classical Greek pisteuo was used to signify believe, is clear from Euripides (Helene, 710), logois d'emoisi pisteuson tade, and that pistis could mean "belief" is shown by the same dramatist's theon d'ouketi pistis arage (Medea, 414; cf. Hipp., 1007). In the New Testament the meanings "to believe" and "belief", for pisteon and pistis, come to the fore; in Christ's speech, pistis frequently means "trust", but also "belief" (cf. Matthew 8:10). In Acts it is used objectively of the tenets of the Christians, but is often to be rendered"belief" (cf. 17:31; 20:21; 26:8). In Romans 14:23, it has the meaning of "conscience" — "all that is not of faith is sin" — but the Apostlerepeatedly uses it in the sense of "belief" (cf. Romans 4 and Galatians 3). How necessary it is to point this out will be evident to all who are familiar with modern theological literature; thus, when a writer in the "Hibbert Journal", Oct., 1907, says, "From one end of the Scripture to the other, faith is trust and only trust", it is hard to see how he would explain 1 Corinthians 13:13, and Hebrews 11:1. The truth is that many theological writers of the present day are given to very loose thinking, and in nothing is this so evident as in their treatment of faith. In the article just referred to we read: "Trust in God is faith, faith is belief, belief may mean creed, but creed is not equivalent to trust in God." A similar vagueness was especially noticeable in the "Do we believe?" controversy—one correspondent says—"We unbelievers, if we have lost faith, cling more closely to hope and — the greatest of these — charity" ("Do we believe?", p. 180, ed. W. L. Courtney, 1905). Non-Catholic writers have repudiated all idea of faith as an intellectual assent, and consequently they fail to realize that faith must necessarily result in a body of dogmatic beliefs. "How and by what influence", asks Harnack, "was the living faith transformed into the creed to be believed, the surrender to Christ into a philosophical Christology?" (quoted in Hibbert Journal, loc. cit.) (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm)."
Hence, in Catholicism, it is inextricably tied to both trust and intellectual assent. It's not simply anything which is believed without evidence.
Now, what's more striking is your assertion that the core beliefs of Christianity have no supporting evidence, and that this lack of evidence constitutes a pillar of Christianity itself; however, neither proposition is endorsed by any theologian of whom I'm aware. Even in St. Thomas's writings, the supposed "articles of faith" (so called because they cannot be known apart from Scripture) are rendered trustworthy insofar as they are revelatory products of an omniscient, perfect being; Aquinas is not saying that they have no evidence (indeed, they are plausibly true because of the nature of the truth bearer--a non-fallacious instance of appealing to authority) and should simply be believed out of personal preference. The only thing close would be Kant's practical reason, in which he famously stated that practical reason demands an absence of a theoretical proof of God--but he was a philosopher, not a theologian. Otherwise, to say we have "faith" in God is to say that we trust God like we trust our parents or our spouses; it's not to say that we simply believe without evidence that God exists--that would be absurd.
[QUOTE]Finally, if faith in the sense of lack of evidence is not central to Christianity, then why doesn't God show Himself?[/QUOTE]
How is "lacking evidence" central to Christianity? You're claiming that a tenet of Christianity is that our belief system must necessarily lack evidence; where do you get that from?
Your question is distorted; even if it was true that God never showed Himself, how does that have any bearing on lack-of-evidence being central to Christianity?
Moreover, saying that God never shows Himself is an assertion. |
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| innerbling |
| Posted 05/05/12 at 11:38 AM | Reply with quote #14 |
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Quote: Atheists do not have, require, or rely upon anywhere near the same kind of, nor extent of, faith as theists.
This is not a factual statement as it could be said that every truth claim atheist makes is a belief statement. As there is no coherent epistemic system which atheist can use consistently to arrive at certainty.
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| CrashTestAuto |
| Posted 05/05/12 at 11:45 AM | Reply with quote #15 |
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| I have frequently encountered faith as a justification for lack of evidence. I am actually surprised to see you so strongly denying it. I can't quote anyone specifically, but I'm pretty sure any dictionary definition of faith you find will include this interpretation.
Moreover, I need you to reformulate what you said, because it looked like your definition actually sneaks this concept in anyway. I do not know if this is my misunderstanding of your intent, but it seems like what you said is:
1) Faith is trust in God. 2) Revelation tells us God exists. 3) Revelations are reliable because we trust in God.
Therefore, God exists.
So unless I am mistaken in you r meaning, your conception of faith, whilst broader than mine, still carries with it the same lack of evidence for believing in God that I outlined to begin with. |
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