| lawyerofgod |
| Posted 04/23/12 at 09:04 AM | Reply with quote #1 |
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| Hi all..
i want to ask them, what do they think about OBE (Out of body experience) and NDE (Near death experience),
my grandmother got NDE and she told me that this is true, i´m 99.5% sure that we have a spirit... what do atheist think about death?...
when i debated in youtube about this, they only say that OBE and NDE have a brain´s explanation, but this actually does not proof they are true, there are three things the science can´t explain:
1) OBE, even if there are some kind of drugs, is really absurd that we can know and see our environment if we are unconscious
2) How is possible we can to hallucinate if our brain is not receiving and emiting any kind of signal.
3) The resurrection itself is absurd, there is no point that our organism stop working and then work again without a reason..
The Third argument enables the faith that Jesus really has resurrected...
these signs validate the spirit´s existence, and consequently some kind of extra-material existence (God)
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| innerbling |
| Posted 04/23/12 at 09:22 AM | Reply with quote #2 |
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There is always an explanation the question is whether this explanation is the best explanation.
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| lawyerofgod |
| Posted 04/23/12 at 09:27 AM | Reply with quote #3 |
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| Right, obviously the atheist explanation is not the best one..... unless they respond the three arguments above.... btw, the third argument for me is the most powerful, if a human is death and his brain is innactive, then, what exactly makes the resurrection?, the brain itself cannot make anything, and this argument enables the faith that Jesus in fact resurrected... |
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| stevieg |
| Posted 04/23/12 at 12:35 PM | Reply with quote #4 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by lawyerofgod
1) OBE, even if there are some kind of drugs, is really absurd that we can know and see our environment if we are unconscious Your senses do not stop working just because you are unconscious nor does most of your brain.
In fact the part of the brain we consider to be responsible for "consciousness" is really quite small compared to the rest.
Quote: 2) How is possible we can to hallucinate if our brain is not receiving and emiting any kind of signal.
What makes you think the hallucinations happened while brain is not receiving and emiting any kind of signal when its far more likely they happened while it was still doing so to some extent.
A dream can seem to last for hours or even days but only minutes could pass in the real world.
Quote: 3) The resurrection itself is absurd, there is no point that our organism stop working and then work again without a reason..
Clarify please.
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these signs validate the spirit´s existence, and consequently some kind of extra-material existence (God)
Not really.
Just because a person may have been dead for a while before being revived does not mean that the experiences happened while that person was dead as the thoughts ect could easily happen just prior to the point of death and seem to last for a long time just like dreams do.
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| Lawlessone777 |
| Posted 04/23/12 at 01:07 PM | Reply with quote #5 |
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| Though you're doing that fisking thing again, Stevie, I want to point at a particular thing you mentioned in your response:
Quote: What makes you think the hallucinations happened while brain is not receiving and emiting any kind of signal when its far more likely they happened while it was still doing so to some extent.
NDE's have actually been confirmed to have happened while the brain is in a state of complete brain death. There are no electrical currents running anymore, the entire brain has flat lined. I, in fact, strongly advise you check out some of the books written on the subject, as well as on some of the scientific studies, that have been done on NDE's.
With regards to the "hallucination" theory, it fails as an explanation based upon one basic common sense observation. If the brain was in such a state of failure that it could no longer sustain basic life support functions, why would it all of a sudden conjure up one of the most vivid and extended hallucinations the person has ever experienced? People who report NDE's regularly make the distinction that it was nothing like a dream, and so to claim that while the brain was failing to even be able to maintain conscious thought it somehow dredged up an entire movie with such vivid clarity and consistency is silly. That would be like saying a Boeing 747 could make a round trip from New York to Tokyo and back while it was on fire, missing a wing, and out of gas. |
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| lawyerofgod |
| Posted 04/23/12 at 02:01 PM | Reply with quote #6 |
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| That is just what i was trying to say as Lawlessone777 said..
The third argument was the resurrection,, Stevie, think that the resurrection itself, why our organism (or body) could die and then resurrect without reason? .. empirically that is absurd.
Consider a computer, you power up your computer, the computer now is "alive".. if the operating system fails, the computer shuts down immediately, but to power on again it must to have an extra impulse (the user) to "resurrect it"... The Computer without an external source will not do anything because is a dead think without activity, the same happen with dead peoples, there is no activiry on their brains, how is possible that they resurrect?.. Have you heard of these peoples who were declared dead and then buried, once buried, they resurrected with no medical intervention, scratching their graves, and finally dying again?, that is real!.that´s why today medics wait 72 hours after death to be buried.. |
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| stevieg |
| Posted 04/23/12 at 02:16 PM | Reply with quote #7 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by Lawlessone777
NDE's have actually been confirmed to have happened while the brain is in a state of complete brain death. There are no electrical currents running anymore, the entire brain has flat lined. I, in fact, strongly advise you check out some of the books written on the subject, as well as on some of the scientific studies, that have been done on NDE's. How do you know that the experiences were while the brain had "no electrical currents running anymore" rather than just prior to that point or even just after as the person is being revived? It is far more likely and reasonable to say that these events happened while the brain was still functioning to some extent than to claim they happened while it was not functioning at all. And yes there are studies that support exactly what i am saying and that the term "death" is not exactly a precise one in this regard. Quote: In September 2008, it was announced that 25 U.K. and U.S. hospitals would examine near-death studies in 1,500 heart attack patient-survivors. The three-year study, coordinated by Sam Parnia at Southampton University, hopes to determine if people without heartbeat or brain activity can have an out-of-body experience with veridical visual perceptions. [39] This study follows on from an earlier 18-month pilot project. [40] On a July 28, 2010 interview about a recent lecture at Goldsmiths, [41] Parnia asserts that "evidence is now suggesting that mental and cognitive processes may continue for a period of time after a death has started" and describes the process of death as "essentially a global stroke of the brain. Therefore like any stroke process one would not expect the entity of mind / consciousness to be lost immediately". He also expresses his disagreement with the term 'near death experiences' because "the patients that we study are not near death, they have actually died and more over it conjures up a lot of imprecise scientific notions, due to the fact that [death] itself is a very imprecise term". [42]
Quote: With regards to the "hallucination" theory, it fails as an explanation based upon one basic common sense observation. If the brain was in such a state of failure that it could no longer sustain basic life support functions, why would it all of a sudden conjure up one of the most vivid and extended hallucinations the person has ever experienced? People who report NDE's regularly make the distinction that it was nothing like a dream, and so to claim that while the brain was failing to even be able to maintain conscious thought it somehow dredged up an entire movie with such vivid clarity and consistency is silly. That would be like saying a Boeing 747 could make a round trip from New York to Tokyo and back while it was on fire, missing a wing, and out of gas. So you are such a expert on the brain and how it functions that you can make that claim about the Boeing 747? What makes you think it is the brain that is failing the body rather than the body that is failing the brain. You also ignore that the parts of the brain that control parts of the body are known to be separate to the imagination or those we use when we dream etc. Quote: It is suggested that the extreme stress caused by a life threatening situation triggers brain states similar to REM sleep and that part of the near death experience is a state similar to dreaming while awake. [58] People who have experienced times when their brains behaved as if they were dreaming while awake are more likely to develop the near death experience. Further stimulation of the Vagus nerve during the physical and/or psychological stress of a life threatening situation, or the product of the imperiled brain, and may trigger brain conditions where the person is in a dream-like state while awake. [59][60][61][62]
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| Lawlessone777 |
| Posted 04/23/12 at 02:35 PM | Reply with quote #8 |
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Quote: How do you know that the experiences were while the brain had "no electrical currents running anymore" rather than just prior to that point or even just after as the person is being revived?
It is far more likely and reasonable to say that these events happened while the brain was still functioning to some extent than to claim they happened while it was not functioning at all.
And yes there are studies that support exactly what i am saying and that the term "death" is not exactly a precise one in this regard.
Some near death experiences go on for hours, where the person goes to heaven, meets Jesus, talks with him, goes through a "life evaluation", meets loved ones who passed on, etc, etc. There are people who have near death experiences during a heart attack in which the time between brain death and unconsciousness is only a minute or two. To say that within that minute or two some unknown factor results in an incredibly vivid, detailed, and lucid hallucination which lasts for hours is to postulate some unknown and completely unplausible explanation in order to avoid the idea that there is actually an afterlife.
Now not only are you saying that the brain drums up an entire vivid scene where a person goes to heaven, meets Jesus, etc, etc, but you're saying that the brain makes hours of hallucinations occur within several minutes, something that it never showed the possibility of doing even while healthy and not dying.
Quote: So you are such a expert on the brain and how it functions that you can make that claim about the Boeing 747?
What makes you think it is the brain that is failing the body rather than the body that is failing the brain. You also ignore that the parts of the brain that control parts of the body are known to be separate to the imagination or those we use when we dream etc.
I don't even know what you're trying to appeal to here. I'm not a neuro-Scientists if that's what you're asking, but I fail to see how this makes any point with regards to what I said. Like I said, when a brain is going through brain death this isn't just "parts" of the brain which are shutting down, the entire thing has lost oxygen and is now failing catastrophically. The medula is unable to regulate things like heart beat, respiration, or even conscious thought considering you go out cold. So again, to say that for some completely unknown reason the brain conjures up a very vivid hallucination in the midst of brain death instead of, say, dedicating itself to not dying, is somewhat silly. Especially to say that your brain could also conjure up hours worth of hallucinations to be processed within a few minutes is frankly confusing.
To go back to the Boeing 747 metaphor I used, what you're now suggesting would be that same plane making a round trip from New York to Tokyo and back while it's on fire, missing a wing, and out of gas, but also doing the entire trip in less than ten minutes perfectly without turbulence. It simply doesn't make sense as an explanation.
Quote: It is suggested that the extreme stress caused by a life threatening situation triggers brain states similar to REM sleep and that part of the near death experience is a state similar to dreaming while awake.[58] People who have experienced times when their brains behaved as if they were dreaming while awake are more likely to develop the near death experience. Further stimulation of the Vagus nerve during the physical and/or psychological stress of a life threatening situation, or the product of the imperiled brain, and may trigger brain conditions where the person is in a dream-like state while awake.[59][60][61][62]
Yeah...you quoted one of the posited naturalistic explanations from Wikipedia... You know that theory hasn't been proven right? There's about a half dozen naturalistic theories, and about twice as many supernaturalistic theories. |
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| stevieg |
| Posted 04/23/12 at 02:45 PM | Reply with quote #9 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by Lawlessone777Some near death experiences go on for hours, where the person goes to heaven, meets Jesus, talks with him, goes through a "life evaluation", meets loved ones who passed on, etc, etc. And i believe them about as much as i believe those who claimed to have met Allah and Mohamed or other gods. Quote: There are people who have near death experiences during a heart attack in which the time between brain death and unconsciousness is only a minute or two. To say that within that minute or two some unknown factor results in an incredibly vivid, detailed, and lucid hallucination which lasts for hours is to postulate some unknown and completely unplausible explanation in order to avoid the idea that there is actually an afterlife.
Now not only are you saying that the brain drums up an entire vivid scene where a person goes to heaven, meets Jesus, etc, etc, but you're saying that the brain makes hours of hallucinations occur within several minutes, something that it never showed the possibility of doing even while healthy and not dying.
Quote: So you are such a expert on the brain and how it functions that you can make that claim about the Boeing 747?
What makes you think it is the brain that is failing the body rather than the body that is failing the brain. You also ignore that the parts of the brain that control parts of the body are known to be separate to the imagination or those we use when we dream etc.
I don't even know what you're trying to appeal to here. I'm not a neuro-Scientists if that's what you're asking, but I fail to see how this makes any point with regards to what I said. Like I said, when a brain is going through brain death this isn't just "parts" of the brain which are shutting down, the entire thing has lost oxygen and is now failing catastrophically. The medula is unable to regulate things like heart beat, respiration, or even conscious thought considering you go out cold. So again, to say that for some completely unknown reason the brain conjures up a very vivid hallucination in the midst of brain death instead of, say, dedicating itself to not dying, is somewhat silly. Especially to say that your brain could also conjure up hours worth of hallucinations to be processed within a few minutes is frankly confusing.
To go back to the Boeing 747 metaphor I used, what you're now suggesting would be that same plane making a round trip from New York to Tokyo and back while it's on fire, missing a wing, and out of gas, but also doing the entire trip in less than ten minutes perfectly without turbulence. It simply doesn't make sense as an explanation.
Quote: It is suggested that the extreme stress caused by a life threatening situation triggers brain states similar to REM sleep and that part of the near death experience is a state similar to dreaming while awake.[58] People who have experienced times when their brains behaved as if they were dreaming while awake are more likely to develop the near death experience. Further stimulation of the Vagus nerve during the physical and/or psychological stress of a life threatening situation, or the product of the imperiled brain, and may trigger brain conditions where the person is in a dream-like state while awake.[59][60][61][62]
Yeah...you quoted one of the posited naturalistic explanations from Wikipedia... You know that theory hasn't been proven right? There's about a half dozen naturalistic theories, and about twice as many supernaturalistic theories.
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| stevieg |
| Posted 04/23/12 at 02:53 PM | Reply with quote #10 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by Lawlessone777Some near death experiences go on for hours, where the person goes to heaven, meets Jesus, talks with him, goes through a "life evaluation", meets loved ones who passed on, etc, etc. And i believe them about as much as i believe those who claimed to have met Allah and Mohamed or other gods. Quote: There are people who have near death experiences during a heart attack in which the time between brain death and unconsciousness is only a minute or two. To say that within that minute or two some unknown factor results in an incredibly vivid, detailed, and lucid hallucination which lasts for hours is to postulate some unknown and completely unplausible explanation in order to avoid the idea that there is actually an afterlife. Rubbish dreams and the like are exactly like that and can seem like they last for hours while only a few seconds pass. It is you who are claiming a unplausible explanation because of personal wishes and bias.
Quote: Now not only are you saying that the brain drums up an entire vivid scene where a person goes to heaven, meets Jesus, etc, etc, but you're saying that the brain makes hours of hallucinations occur within several minutes, something that it never showed the possibility of doing even while healthy and not dying. I do not believe those people in the first place and even if i did a type of dream state like those we already experience time dilation in on a regular basis is far more plausible than meeting god or jesus.
Quote: To go back to the Boeing 747 metaphor I used, what you're now suggesting would be that same plane making a round trip from New York to Tokyo and back while it's on fire, missing a wing, and out of gas, but also doing the entire trip in less than ten minutes perfectly without turbulence. It simply doesn't make sense as an explanation. BECAUSE YOU SAY SO? NOW LETS SEE YOUR QUALIFICATIONS THAT MAKES THAT COMPARISON EVEN REMOTELY VALID.
Quote: Yeah...you quoted one of the posited naturalistic explanations from Wikipedia... You know that theory hasn't been proven right? There's about a half dozen naturalistic theories, and about twice as many supernaturalistic theories. At least the naturalistic theories have science backing them instead of wishful thinking.
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| Lawlessone777 |
| Posted 04/23/12 at 03:01 PM | Reply with quote #11 |
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| Yeah StieveG now you're just becoming openly vitriolic, fisking, and not trying to present any logical point. So I'm just going to dust of my sandals and head to another thread. You're simply trolling at this point. But before I go I want to ask one simple question:
Quote: BECAUSE YOU SAY SO?
NOW LETS SEE YOUR QUALIFICATIONS THAT MAKES THAT COMPARISON EVEN REMOTELY VALID.
Capslock is cruise control for cool, dude. But seriously, I've seen you post on threads covering subjects from biology, physics, and cosmology to philosophy and theology. Do you have schooling in any of these subjects? I'm at least a student of apologetics, so I actually study the material we debate on this forum, but do you honestly think that demanding qualifications from someone refutes their argument? And if you do, doesn't that mean that you pretty much have to stop posting on this board altogether? Or can I simply slam "NOW LETS SEE YOUR QUALIFICATIONS" into my keyboard any time I want with you? |
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| stevieg |
| Posted 04/23/12 at 03:26 PM | Reply with quote #12 |
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Lawlessone
The point is that you have no idea if your comparison has even the slightest measure of validity yet you even went so far as to expand upon it.
I have no need to refute a argument that is nothing more than a blind unsupported biased assertion and i am well within my rights demanding you back it up with facts rather than just saying "but it makes sense to me" when the brain is barely understood by the top people in neuroscience let alone a layman like you and me.
Especially when the studies i posted by experts said quite the opposite to what your comparison is asserting.
And yes i go with naturalistic explanations as they have produced results throughout history and continue to do so while thus far supernatual explanations have yet to produce any result ever, well apart from contradiction depending on what supernatural being you happen to believe in.
And yes i should have kept my temper so apologies for that.
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| Rostos |
| Posted 04/23/12 at 07:49 PM | Reply with quote #13 |
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Here is a question. When i hear about NDE's, they are ALL about an experience with the supernatural, God , Jesus, meeting passed relatives etc etc, they all have to do something with the supernatural. If these NDE's are simply "hallucinations", then why dont we hear people having a hallucination with something other than a supernatural experience, ie, driving a sports car, nice boat, having sex, getting chased by a mad man, etc etc, ie, anything other than a supernatural experience. Why are they ALWAYS biased to something that is supernatural? If these are just dreams, hallucinations or drugs having an impact on the brain, then why are they always geared to a supernatural experience? Doesnt this seem erringly strange? |
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| lawyerofgod |
| Posted 04/24/12 at 09:51 AM | Reply with quote #14 |
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| Only the fact you die and resurrect seems supernatural, any experience after death is supernatural too, because looks logic that after death there is only darkness and unconscious state (just a theory). But at least only one case of NDE in the world deletes that theory completely. We must to accept that if brain does not have any signal, then is impossible that it can hallucinate, independent if it is a dream or a reality, is not logic that a human can experiment something after death.. that´s because i think (among other things) that we have an spirit, our body is just an instrument of our spirit, our temple... that´s because is really easy to me to think that Jesus truely resurrected.. because resurrection (independent if there is a dream in death or not) is possible and was experimented by NDE´s pacients.. So, if NDE´s pacients resurrected.. why Jesus not?, I remember to have the same experience but before born, i saw my mother in the hospital before giving birth... i knew that new boy would be me... i still remember like if this sucess was yesterday.. |
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| stevieg |
| Posted 04/24/12 at 12:35 PM | Reply with quote #15 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by RostosHere is a question. When i hear about NDE's, they are ALL about an experience with the supernatural, God , Jesus, meeting passed relatives etc etc, they all have to do something with the supernatural. If these NDE's are simply "hallucinations", then why dont we hear people having a hallucination with something other than a supernatural experience, ie, driving a sports car, nice boat, having sex, getting chased by a mad man, etc etc, ie, anything other than a supernatural experience.
The fact remains that all of those can be explained by memories, delusions or just plain and simple liars.
I do not see it as unreasonable that we have delusions about our expectations rather than the mundane and that position is supported by the fact that religious believers always seem to meet their particular god or prophet.
Oh and do you mean like this:
Quote: A few years ago I was knocked of my cycle at a roundabout. The next 15 minutes are missing but I was aware that the light was blindingly pure and a richer blue than I have ever seen. I was surrounded by trees in reality, but the light was astounding and there was no noise whatsoever, there were no thoughts in my head, just wanting to be in the light. Then I realised that there was a person who I believed was my guardian angel. She was so tall that she could literally touch the sky, her body went on forever. She kept repeating "don't touch your head, don't touch your head". I did and suddenly pain and reality returned and I was aware of all that was going on. I was so sad because the light was gone and the guardian angel in reality was a lady who had stopped to help and she was not tall.
Jane, Bracknell, Berkshire, United Kingdom
Quote: Why are they ALWAYS biased to something that is supernatural? If these are just dreams, hallucinations or drugs having an impact on the brain, then why are they always geared to a supernatural experience? Doesnt this seem erringly strange?
Not always but even if it were so believing you had a supernatural experience does not mean you actually had one as the post above shows.
Quote: We must to accept that if brain does not have any signal, then is impossible that it can hallucinate, independent if it is a dream or a reality, is not logic that a human can experiment something after death..
What makes you think these hallucinations happen while the brain is shut down rather than when it is in the process of shutting down, a drowning man will desperately grab for anything as he goes so i see no reason why that instinct cannot be applied to the brain.
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