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Lightfoot
Reply with quote  #1 
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/9136191/Christians-have-no-right-to-wear-cross-at-work-says-Government.html


Quote:

In a highly significant move, ministers will fight a case at the European Court of Human Rights in which two British women will seek to establish their right to display the cross.

It is the first time that the Government has been forced to state whether it backs the right of Christians to wear the symbol at work.

A document seen by The Sunday Telegraph discloses that ministers will argue that because it is not a “requirement” of the Christian faith, employers can ban the wearing of the cross and sack workers who insist on doing so.




Now that is going to far.

antybu86
Reply with quote  #2 
The title of this post is misleading. From what I've read, the legal question here seems quite interesting, but you seem to be ignoring it in order to play into some Christian martyr complex.

The women seem to be arguing (or planning to argue) that they have a right to wear religious paraphernalia in the workplace. Do they? Certainly, they wouldn't in the United Sates. Companies can have dress codes which restrict certain items as long as they don't target any specific religious beliefs. In fact, such a "right" would be a bit ridiculous, as it would cause health and safety problems in a number of jobs. For example, I used to work in a factory where all necklaces (and other jewelery) were banned for safety reasons.

I'm not certain what the company's dress code was. It looks like it was an airline, and they've since changed their policies. If they were targeting Christians specifically, then I agree that it was a discriminatory policy and they were wrongfully terminated. If it was a ban on all necklaces but they just happen to be wearing crosses, then it certainly wasn't discriminatory.

Either way, I disagree that they have the "right" to wear necklaces (religious or otherwise) in any workplace. I'm not familiar with British law, but I imagine their government is probably correct. Certainly they'd be correct if this were happening in the US.
Lightfoot
Reply with quote  #3 
Quote:
Originally Posted by antybu86
The title of this post is misleading. From what I've read, the legal question here seems quite interesting, but you seem to be ignoring it in order to play into some Christian martyr complex.

The women seem to be arguing (or planning to argue) that they have a right to wear religious paraphernalia in the workplace. Do they? Certainly, they wouldn't in the United Sates. Companies can have dress codes which restrict certain items as long as they don't target any specific religious beliefs. In fact, such a "right" would be a bit ridiculous, as it would cause health and safety problems in a number of jobs. For example, I used to work in a factory where all necklaces (and other jewelery) were banned for safety reasons.

I'm not certain what the company's dress code was. It looks like it was an airline, and they've since changed their policies. If they were targeting Christians specifically, then I agree that it was a discriminatory policy and they were wrongfully terminated. If it was a ban on all necklaces but they just happen to be wearing crosses, then it certainly wasn't discriminatory.

Either way, I disagree that they have the "right" to wear necklaces (religious or otherwise) in any workplace. I'm not familiar with British law, but I imagine their government is probably correct. Certainly they'd be correct if this were happening in the US.


I am sure, they are allowed to wear "earrings" and "rings", so I see no problem with crosses. One was a check in clerk the other a nurse.

I don't even think it was about safety, but whether these items were a requirement of their faith. So, if the requirement was a turban, you could wear a turban on your head.

It should be noted that these women did win the backing of the Equality Commission.
neilfrompta
Reply with quote  #4 
It is very petty to want to fire anyone over this. Does the UK not have labour laws that prevent discrimination in the work place? I think if a person gets fired over this he / she would have a strong case for wrongful termination.
Quote:

A document seen by The Sunday Telegraph discloses that ministers will argue that because it is not a “requirement” of the Christian faith, employers can ban the wearing of the cross and sack workers who insist on doing so.


What would be the need to ban the cross. Does it impact the work that your employees do? I think not. It is again very petty. Why would you want to antagonize your work force like that.

Again I would like to see such a case get reviewed under the labour laws of the UK, because I suspect it would unlawful.

CrashTestAuto
Reply with quote  #5 
I don't get the objections to this.  If it were part of their religion, fine, but it isn't.  A cross is a piece of jewellery that has certain connotations.  I wouldn't be allowed to wear a necklace with a cannabis leaf on it (not that I'd want to), why should the cross be any different?

The cross makes a statement, and that statement isn't necessarily in accordance with the company's image.  This is standard practice even without a statement (hence dress codes, and shaving rules etc.).  It isn't a religious requirement, so it shouldn't receive special treatment.
scepticalguy
Reply with quote  #6 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrashTestAuto
I don't get the objections to this.  If it were part of their religion, fine, but it isn't.  A cross is a piece of jewellery that has certain connotations.  I wouldn't be allowed to wear a necklace with a cannabis leaf on it (not that I'd want to), why should the cross be any different?

The cross makes a statement, and that statement isn't necessarily in accordance with the company's image.  This is standard practice even without a statement (hence dress codes, and shaving rules etc.).  It isn't a religious requirement, so it shouldn't receive special treatment.


I actually had no issue with a person wearing one or not but you just presented a very reasonable perspective and argument.
CrashTestAuto
Reply with quote  #7 
Quote:
Originally Posted by scepticalguy


I actually had no issue with a person wearing one or not but you just presented a very reasonable perspective and argument.

Thank you.  I have no issue with it either if there is no specific reason for the exclusion beyond it being a religious symbol (and even then, there are some situations where that could be okay).  But in most workplaces there will be another reason, and it will be one that is perfectly accepted as company policy for every other restriction it imposes.
Maxeo
Reply with quote  #8 
Shooot. I have several "Christian" tattoos.  I'm done-for if I end up studying over there...
john
Reply with quote  #9 
If I ran an airline I would be a little concerned I might lose (stupid) customers from one religion if my staff wore religious symbols from others.

Quote:
Shooot. I have several "Christian" tattoos.  I'm done-for if I end up studying over there...

People in most of Europe might well look at you strangely if you showed an obsession or even a deep interest in Christianity.
Luckily there are compensations....
if you were a European you could get a first class education without getting saddled with debt as in the US (a tenant of mine simply could not pay her PhD debt back and basically defaulted). At the same time you'd be entitled to universal healthcare of a superior quality to that in the US.



Jared
Reply with quote  #10 
Quote:
Originally Posted by john
If I ran an airline I would be a little concerned I might lose (stupid) customers from one religion if my staff wore religious symbols from others.

Quote:
Shooot. I have several "Christian" tattoos.  I'm done-for if I end up studying over there...

People in most of Europe might well look at you strangely if you showed an obsession or even a deep interest in Christianity.
Luckily there are compensations....
if you were a European you could get a first class education without getting saddled with debt as in the US (a tenant of mine simply could not pay her PhD debt back and basically defaulted). At the same time you'd be entitled to universal healthcare of a superior quality to that in the US.

Never miss an opportunity to contrast the paradisaical, culturally godless and progressive welfare states of Europe with the most backwardly conservative, culturally Christian and capitalism-ravaged United States of America, do you John? 
scepticalguy
Reply with quote  #11 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jared

Never miss an opportunity to contrast the paradisaical, culturally godless and progressive welfare states of Europe with the most backwardly conservative, culturally Christian and capitalism-ravaged United States of America, do you John? 


While i do not think Europe is perfect by any means i do think that the USA has gone down hill big time.
Jared
Reply with quote  #12 
Quote:
Originally Posted by scepticalguy
While i do not think Europe is perfect by any means i do think that the USA has gone down hill big time.

Since when, the 60s?
scepticalguy
Reply with quote  #13 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jared
Quote:
Originally Posted by scepticalguy
While i do not think Europe is perfect by any means i do think that the USA has gone down hill big time.

Since when, the 60s?


Since when is a very good question actually, i was watching some Neil deGrasse Tyson stuff not so long ago (i love listening to him even thought the stuff is basic as he is like the santa of science) and id say the 50's to 60's is about right.
john
Reply with quote  #14 
Quote:
Since when, the 60s?


Quote:
id say the 50's to 60's is about right.


As a British student I first hitch hiked across America in 1968 and always had a soft spot for it.
I first took LSD there and I jumped a train there. It has a place in my heart.
Like many Americans I know however, I'm never going back.
It's a different country now.
It's a country ruined by it's electoral and lobbying and health systems, and regressing into a Victorian era of puritanism and myth. Very dangerous myths which hurt people in the real world.
It's value systems largely repel me.
So when I criticise America, Jared, it's not gratuitous, really.
I'm repeatedly contradicting the myths which is difficult to do when you live within them. I'm trying to help you.

....don't mention it
John
Jared
Reply with quote  #15 
Quote:
Originally Posted by scepticalguy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jared
Quote:
Originally Posted by scepticalguy
While i do not think Europe is perfect by any means i do think that the USA has gone down hill big time.

Since when, the 60s?


Since when is a very good question actually, i was watching some Neil deGrasse Tyson stuff not so long ago (i love listening to him even thought the stuff is basic as he is like the santa of science) and id say the 50's to 60's is about right.

Well, the 50s were a decade of reaction against the post-war Soviet Union and the tide of atheistic Communism, thus our national identity became more self-consciously religious ("under God"). The 60s of course were a decade of reaction against the 50s, more existentialistic, hedonistic, openly secular (especially opposed to Western religiosity), and anti-"the-powers-that-be," I believe the 70s were a decade of reaction against the 60s. Fundamentalism, which had initially sought to combat modernism, reemerged in a highly politicized and morally concerned form in the Evangelical movement. The immanent collapse of Communism became more apparent (post-Khrushchev, post-Mao), and the "culture war" sharply internalized in the 80s: those who saw the 50s as the golden age and those who waxed nostalgic for the 60s. Many ex-hippie socialists entered the once-tolerable environmentalist movement when Communism was in decline in order to attack capitalism from another angle, and the New Age movement climaxed. So, it's continually gone back and forth--and the decades are more blurry than I've laid out.
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