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Michael_gb
Posted 03/24/12 Reply with quote  #1 
I just learned that there are some people who still believe that Ronald Reagan was related to the anti-Christ in some way (perhaps as a forerunner) because he had six letters in his first, his second, and his last names.

This is from another forum
Quote:

Does the fact that ronald wilson reagan's names each have 6 letters, making 666, make him the devil?


I think not. This has nothing to do with him or him being the devil. It is mere coincidence. It isn't evil



It's the answer here that interests me.

If we believe in a sovereign God (and we believe that the past, the present, and the future are all one to Him), how can anything be coincidence?

I voted for Reagan, I think he was a good president, and if I were looking for a forerunner of the anti-Christ, I'd be much more likely to see him in Hitler, Mao, or Stalin.

So why is Reagan the guy with the three six's in his name?

Is this "coincidence," was he evil, or did God just put the sixes there to freak people out for some reason?

(And if you say it is "coincidence," and you believe in God, please explain what you mean by "coincidence.")

In other words (I guess what I'm asking is), are coincidences that don't serve any divine purpose evidence against the existence of God?
OrdinaryClay
Posted 03/24/12 Reply with quote  #2 
It's coincidence. He's dead and did not fulfill prophecy that is how we can know for certain he was not the beast.

The definition of a coincidence requires a context. After all, everything in it's own context is not coincidence. Reagan's name is not coincidence in the context of his parents choice to name him. To say something is not coincidence is to say they are linked causally ( note: both could be effects of the same cause, or both could be causes of some similar set of effects) in some way and requires evidence for the causal relationship. With regards to the mark of the beast the context is end times prophecy.

"coincidences that don't serve any divine purpose" do not exist, as you are equivocating on the term "divine purpose". Which purpose?

What other forum is this discussion occurring in?
Michael_gb
Posted 03/24/12 Reply with quote  #3 
Quote:
What other forum is this discussion occurring in?

The exchange I quoted came from this site

http://www.chacha.com/question/does-the-fact-that-ronald-wilson-reagan%27s-names-each-have-6-letters,-making-666,-make-him-the-devil

But there's a lot more online (including a detailed study by some Bible teacher explaining why he believes that the late Ronald Reagan is what he calls "a type" of the beast--I could find that for you if you like.)

Quote:
"coincidences that don't serve any divine purpose" do not exist

So what Divine purpose do the three letters in each of President Reagan's names serve?

What Divine purpose did the coincidence of his retiring to a house with a street address of 666 st, Cloud road (also brought up by those who believe him to have been some kind of forerunner of the beast) serve?

You start out by saying the three sixes in his name are just coincidence, but then seem to say that there are no coincidences (because everything does indeed serve some Divine purpose.)

Please help me understand what you're saying here.

Thank you.
OrdinaryClay
Posted 03/24/12 Reply with quote  #4 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael_gb
Quote:
What other forum is this discussion occurring in?

The exchange I quoted came from this site

http://www.chacha.com/question/does-the-fact-that-ronald-wilson-reagan%27s-names-each-have-6-letters,-making-666,-make-him-the-devil

But there's a lot more online (including a detailed study by some Bible teacher explaining why he believes that the late Ronald Reagan is what he calls "a type" of the beast--I could find that for you if you like.)

Quote:
"coincidences that don't serve any divine purpose" do not exist

So what Divine purpose do the three letters in each of President Reagan's names serve?

What Divine purpose did the coincidence of his retiring to a house with a street address of 666 st, Cloud road (also brought up by those who believe him to have been some kind of forerunner of the beast) serve?

You start out by saying the three sixes in his name are just coincidence, but then seem to say that there are no coincidences (because everything does indeed serve some Divine purpose.)

Please help me understand what you're saying here.

Thank you.


Thanks.

Reagan's name serves the "divine purpose" of allowing us to refer to him when speaking, etc ...  same as your's or my name. Like I said you are equivocating on the use of the term divine purpose.

There is no such thing in the Bible about any "forerunners" of the beast. There are people who for blasphemous purposes associate themselves with the number 666. I could give you a list of many bands that do this. The occult associates with the number 666 for the same reason. This does not mean they are "forerunners" of the beast. It means they are fools, and an abomination to God.

Please define what you mean by"divine purpose".
OrdinaryClay
Posted 03/24/12 Reply with quote  #5 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael_gb

You start out by saying the three sixes in his name are just coincidence, but then seem to say that there are no coincidences (because everything does indeed serve some Divine purpose.)

Reread my post. It is coincidence in the context of end time prophecy, but it is not coincidence  in the context of his parents having given him his name.

Do you understand what it means to be coincidental?
Michael_gb
Posted 03/24/12 Reply with quote  #6 
Quote:
Do you understand what it means to be coincidental?

I understand what an atheist means when he uses the term (he means un-designed, random, happening by chance), but I'm not sure what a Theist (especially one with an Augustinian concept of a God above time, who sees the past, present, and future as one) means by the term.

The "coincidence" involving the number of letters in president Reagan's name is only one example.

God surely foreknew what his parents would name him--did this serve some Divine purpose?

And what about circumstances that involve no human factors?

I just found this.

Quote:
Colombo (AsiaNews) – For Sri Lanka’s Christians, this year’s Christmas was ill fated, marked by natural disasters and many road accidents that filled hospital beds. Many people were unable to celebrate the birth of Jesus...During the festive season, more than 210,000 people (more than 56,000 families) were affected by floods and heavy rains, the country’s Disaster Management Center (DMC) reported. Batticaloa and Trincomalee in the Eastern province and Vavuniya, Mannar, Jaffna, Kilinochchi and Mullathivu in the Northern and Northern Western provinces as well as Kandy were among the most touched districts.

http://www.asianews.it/news-en/Natural-disasters-mar-Christmas-celebrations-for-Christians-in-Sri-Lanka-20367.html

Why did God choose Christmas as the time for these natural disasters to befall Sri-Lanka?

Is it "coincidence," or is it meant to tell us someithing?

If you believe in God, what meaning can "coincidental" have?

(Whether you believe it or not, I'm not just trying to argue--I'm really trying to understand this here. Please reply.)
OrdinaryClay
Posted 03/24/12 Reply with quote  #7 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael_gb
Quote:
Do you understand what it means to be coincidental?

I understand what an atheist means when he uses the term (he means un-designed, random, happening by chance), but I'm not sure what a Theist (especially one with an Augustinian concept of a God above time, who sees the past, present, and future as one) means by the term.

The "coincidence" involving the number of letters in president Reagan's name is only one example.

God surely foreknew what his parents would name him--did this serve some Divine purpose?

So according to your definition was Reagan's name coincidental? Do you think his parants randomly picked his name?

Please define what you mean by"divine purpose".
Michael_gb
Posted 03/24/12 Reply with quote  #8 
Quote:
So according to your definition was Reagan's name coincidental? Do you think his parants randomly picked his name?

I didn't say I was an atheist, and I don't know if anything is random.

I think that if there is a God, He knew the name Reagan's parent's would pick for him, He knew what reasons they'd have for picking it before any of them were born, and He ultimately provided them with whatever motives they had for picking the name they chose.

Did He have a reason?

Does it mean something?

Must everything mean something?

Quote:
Please define what you mean by"divine purpose".


You're the one who said that the number of letters in the names his parents gave him served "a divine purpose"
Quote:
"coincidences that don't serve any divine purpose" do not exist

Could you define what you meant by "divine purpose" when you said that?

What Divine purpose could the late president's name being connected to a number almost universally associated with evil serve?

What Divine purpose could the natural disasters falling on Christmas serve?
OrdinaryClay
Posted 03/24/12 Reply with quote  #9 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OrdinaryClay
It's coincidence. He's dead and did not fulfill prophecy that is how we can know for certain he was not the beast.

The definition of a coincidence requires a context. After all, everything in it's own context is not coincidence. Reagan's name is not coincidence in the context of his parents choice to name him. To say something is not coincidence is to say they are linked causally ( note: both could be effects of the same cause, or both could be causes of some similar set of effects) in some way and requires evidence for the causal relationship. With regards to the mark of the beast the context is end times prophecy.

"coincidences that don't serve any divine purpose" do not exist, as you are equivocating on the term "divine purpose". Which purpose?

What other forum is this discussion occurring in?


This is what I said. 
OrdinaryClay
Posted 03/24/12 Reply with quote  #10 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael_gb
You're the one who said that the number of letters in the names his parents gave him served "a divine purpose"
Quote:
"coincidences that don't serve any divine purpose" do not exist

Could you define what you meant by "divine purpose" when you said that?

What Divine purpose could the late president's name being connected to a number almost universally associated with evil serve?

What Divine purpose could the natural disasters falling on Christmas serve?


Divine purpose to a Christian is something that ultimately achieves God's will.

I repeat.

Please define what you mean by "divine purpose".

So according to your definition was Reagan's name coincidental? Do you think his parents randomly picked his name?
OrdinaryClay
Posted 03/24/12 Reply with quote  #11 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael_gb

What Divine purpose could the late president's name being connected to a number almost universally associated with evil serve?

Reagan's name serves the "divine purpose" of allowing us to refer to him when speaking, etc ...  same as your's or my name. Like I said you are equivocating on the use of the term divine purpose.
OrdinaryClay
Posted 03/24/12 Reply with quote  #12 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael_gb

What Divine purpose could the natural disasters falling on Christmas serve?


The physical world behaves according to natural laws. We live and exist within these laws. I have no idea why the natural disaster occurred on that day and at that time. No one does.

If your question is why do bad things happen then this is a question related to the problem of evil and you should research that subject. There are many answers given by Dr Craig on this subject.
Michael_gb
Posted 03/24/12 Reply with quote  #13 
I was still editing this post when you posted your reply

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael_gb
Quote:
So according to your definition was Reagan's name coincidental? Do you think his parants randomly picked his name?

I didn't say I was an atheist, and I don't know if anything is random.

I think that if there is a God, He knew the name Reagan's parent's would pick for him, He knew what reasons they'd have for picking it before any of them were born, and He ultimately provided them with whatever motives they had for picking the name they chose.

Did He have a reason?

Does it mean something?

Must everything mean something?

Quote:
Please define what you mean by"divine purpose".


You're the one who said that the number of letters in the names his parents gave him served "a divine purpose"
Quote:
"coincidences that don't serve any divine purpose" do not exist

Could you define what you meant by "divine purpose" when you said that?

What Divine purpose could the late president's name being connected to a number almost universally associated with evil serve?

What Divine purpose could the natural disasters falling on Christmas serve?


I think I answered your questions, and I don't think you really answered mine.

Did God have a reason for having Reagan's parents give him the name He foresaw them giving him?

(Does it mean something?

Does He have a reason for everything?

Must everything mean something?)

Does Reagan having exactly six letters in each of his three names somehow further God's ultimate achievement of His purpose?

How does the late president's name being connected to a number almost universally associated with evil serve that purpose?

And what Divine purpose could the natural disasters falling on Christmas serve?

If any of these things don't actually serve some specific Divine purpose, does that mean that there really is no sovereign God governing the universe?

Does the idea of a sovereign (above time and space) leave any room for what we call "coincidence?
OrdinaryClay
Posted 03/24/12 Reply with quote  #14 
This forums software is terrible for quoting so I tend to answer in a large response and in the order of the questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael_gb

Did God have a reason for having Reagan's parents give him the name He foresaw them giving him?

(Does it mean something?

Does He have a reason for everything?

Must everything mean something?)

Does Reagan having exactly six letters in each of his three names somehow further God's ultimate achievement of His purpose?

How does the late president's name being connected to a number almost universally associated with evil serve that purpose?

And what Divine purpose could the natural disasters falling on Christmas serve?


His reason seems to have been that we need names (same reason you have a name) and apparently has nothing to do with prophecy from what I can tell. Please take the time to understand my comments about context and what it means to coincidence.

It means he has a name we can use to refer to him. Mundane meanings are still meanings.

Everything has meaning in it's own context (Some times these meanings are mundane). I don't know how much clearer I can be. Yes, everything has a reason. I suppose you can wax philosophical about the "reason for quantum events, but that is not really material to the discussion.

Define what you mean by God's purpose. You have not answered that question, and I have went out of my way to try and answer yours. The number 666 occurs all over the place (think of all the house addresses that must be 666) and that does not mean every time you see it it has anything to do with Bible prophecy.
OrdinaryClay
Posted 03/24/12 Reply with quote  #15 
Are you an atheist, agnostic or theist?
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