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billclute
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In John 16:7 Jesus says that unless he goes away the Counselor (Holy Spirit) will not come.  Why?  Why could the Holy Spirit not have come before Jesus went away?

saibomb
Reply with quote  #2 
I don't know, but I was just thinking about the Trinity and you could think of it in terms of the three persons as I am (The Father), I am becoming (Jesus), and I am that has become (Holy Spirit). I don't know if that'll help but it's something to think about on the side. 
billclute
Reply with quote  #3 
saibomb-

I don't think that is going to help me, or I just don't understand what you are saying.

The Trinity is 3 distinct persons.  What you have stated, or at least how I am understanding what you wrote, is that the Trinity is 1 person at 3 different moments in time.
saibomb
Reply with quote  #4 
Actually it's more like three different natures of God (which I guess would imply a trinity of distinct persons?) but I don't know, I was just thinking of it but you're right, it probably doesn't help. I don't know what I was doing :|
billclute
Reply with quote  #5 
I'm not sure if that would imply 3 distinct persons.  It sounds like it may be modalism to me.

Thanks, though.
Freecube
Reply with quote  #6 
One answer to this is that the Holy Spirit proceeds forth from both the Father and the Son (I think that's the Eastern Orthodox's position, in contraposition to Roman Catholicism). If that's the case, then as long as the Second Person of the Trinity is incarnate, the Holy Spirit could only proceed forth to humanity also incarnated.
billclute
Reply with quote  #7 
Freecube-

In that view, is the Holy Spirit still viewed as a distinct person or just an extension from the Father or the Son?
Freecube
Reply with quote  #8 
In the classic Eastern Orthodox view, the Holy Spirit is distinct from yet dependent on the Father and Son.

Another way of looking at this verse is just to see Jesus describing his necessity of leaving the disciples given God's plan of salvation. Perhaps the Holy Spirit could have indeed come, but would not, given God's plan, and Jesus is just contracting that thought--as God's plan will necessarily occur.
aengs115
Reply with quote  #9 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freecube
One answer to this is that the Holy Spirit proceeds forth from both the Father and the Son (I think that's the Eastern Orthodox's position, in contraposition to Roman Catholicism). If that's the case, then as long as the Second Person of the Trinity is incarnate, the Holy Spirit could only proceed forth to humanity also incarnated.

Well I don't know if that do the trick, on my understanding of the incarnation Jesus is still incarnated, meaning that Jesus still have a human nature. He has not put it down just because he ascended to heaven. When the son took on yet one more nature as a man he seem to have done that for eternity. Jesus human nature is not laying somewhere dead now, at least is that how I understand the incarnation and I think that is the orthodox understanding (not as in the eastern orthodox, but simply orthodox).

Back to question, I don't have a Bible with me right now (I know I could have gone to biblegateway.com) but is not the context Jesus talking about him going to the cross? My understanding would be that if Jesus is simply saying that if I do not leave you and is exalted, that is dies on the cross for the sake of your sins the holy Spirit can't come to live in you. But if I leave you and die for you that will be possible and that is even better as you then will have me by your side even closer than you have now. Any comment? I might need to see the context though.
vmancha
Reply with quote  #10 
Quote:
Originally Posted by billclute

In John 16:7 Jesus says that unless he goes away the Counselor (Holy Spirit) will not come.  Why?  Why could the Holy Spirit not have come before Jesus went away?

John 16 but now I am going to him who sent me. None of you asks me, ‘Where are you going?’ 6 Rather, you are filled with grief because I have said these things. 7 But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8 When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 about sin, because people do not believe in me; 10 about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11 and about judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.

We are in a phase of time where Lucifer stands condemned. Christ met the fulfillment at the cross. Now believers get to share in this fulfillment living in the power of the holy spirit while attacked and witnessing to the angelic realm  using the power of the spirit to show the world its need for Christ.
billclute
Reply with quote  #11 
aengs115-

Quote:


Back to question, I don't have a Bible with me right now (I know I could have gone to biblegateway.com) but is not the context Jesus talking about him going to the cross? My understanding would be that if Jesus is simply saying that if I do not leave you and is exalted, that is dies on the cross for the sake of your sins the holy Spirit can't come to live in you. But if I leave you and die for you that will be possible and that is even better as you then will have me by your side even closer than you have now. Any comment? I might need to see the context though.


That's a perspective I had not thought of.  I'll study it with that perspective and see if it holds up.  Thanks.

tigerslip
Reply with quote  #12 
Quote:
Originally Posted by billclute

In John 16:7 Jesus says that unless he goes away the Counselor (Holy Spirit) will not come.  Why?  Why could the Holy Spirit not have come before Jesus went away?

Maybe the Holy Spirit doesn't like Jesus.
wonderer
Reply with quote  #13 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tigerslip
Quote:
Originally Posted by billclute

In John 16:7 Jesus says that unless he goes away the Counselor (Holy Spirit) will not come.  Why?  Why could the Holy Spirit not have come before Jesus went away?

Maybe the Holy Spirit doesn't like Jesus.


Hmm.  I was thinking maybe they both had the same spin and the Pauli exclusion principle applied.  (And if you think that is funny, yes, you are a weirdo.  
Arthur42
Reply with quote  #14 
Quote:
Originally Posted by wonderer
Hmm.  I was thinking maybe they both had the same spin and the Pauli exclusion principle applied.


Kindly explain how a deity and a particle could have the property of spin, and why this is not an apples-to-oranges comparison.  Furthermore tell me why you needed to get Pauli involved in all of this.

Quote:
(And if you think that is funny, yes, you are a weirdo.


I do not see the relevance or connection between quantum mechanics and being a "weirdo."  Again please kindly explain.

Quote:


Incoherent meaningless rubbish.

/Snakeystew
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