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jasondulle
Reply with quote  #1 

In the most recent Q&A WLC offers the following argument for monotheism based on the divine attribute of omnipotence:

 

“A better argument for there being at most one omnipotent God is that any other being that exists must be within the power of God to create or not.  But then the existence of that being depends asymmetrically upon God.  So God has power over it, while it lacks this power over God.  So there can be at most one omnipotent God.”

 

It seems to me, however, that this argument only proves that omnipotent beings cannot be created/contingent, not that there cannot be more than one omnipotent being.  What reason would there be to think multiple eternal/necessary beings could not share the attribute of omnipotence?  

joel
Reply with quote  #2 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasondulle

What reason would there be to think multiple eternal/necessary beings could not share the attribute of omnipotence?  


I think at this point the word "omnipotent" loses its true meaning. 

If I'm "omnipotent," but I cannot create or destroy some other being who is also "omnipotent," and that being cannot create or destroy me, then neither of us is really omnipotent, are we?  At best we're just really, really powerful, but ultimately limited.
jasondulle
Reply with quote  #3 

Good insight.  I think this is an improvement on Craig's argument.  Whereas I can imagine multiple omnipotent beings that exist from eternity and thus all equally have the power to create any other beings, it seems hard to imagine how such a group of eternal beings could also have the power to destroy one another. 

 

This does seem a bit problematic for the doctrine of the Trinity, however, because and each person is omnipotent, and yet no one person has the power to destroy either or both of the other two persons since all three persons are metaphysically necessary.  If the Father cannot destroy the Son, and if the Son cannot destroy the Spirit, and if the Spirit cannot destroy the Father, then given your definition of omnipotence, how can any person of the Trinity be said to be omnipotent? 

 

One might respond by saying omnipotence is a property of the essence of God rather than the persons, and thus there can be no conflict since all three persons are "drawing from" the same property.  But why should we think omnipotence is a property of divine essence rather than each of the three persons? 

 

Secondly, even if omnipotence is a property of the divine essence, power can only be exemplified by volitional acts.  Since there are three persons, there are three sets of volition.  And yet it's clear that the Son could not exercise His volition in such a way so as to cause the Spirit to cease existing.  So how can the Son be omnipotent?  It won't help to say that the persons of the Trinity are in unity and thus cannot conflict in will, because what's at issue here is not how the persons of the Trinity in fact relate to one another, but what is possible for them to do.  Omnipotence does not entail that a being who possesses it must do everything that is within his power to do, but merely that he be able to do so if he so chooses.  But with the Trinity, we would have a situation in which none of the three persons could destroy the others even if He wanted to.  And if there is something He cannot do, then He is not omnipotent.  So again, given your definition of omnipotence, how can the Trinity of divine persons be said to be omnipotent?

RandyE
Reply with quote  #4 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasondulle
Good insight.  I think this is an improvement on Craig's argument.  Whereas I can imagine multiple omnipotent beings that exist from eternity and thus all equally have the power to create any other beings, it seems hard to imagine how such a group of eternal beings could also have the power to destroy one another.

I do not see how this would work. In fact, any omnipotent being cannot be able to create another omnipotent being, so at most one omnipotent being exists. Your response is to mention necessary beings who are also omnipotent. But in that sense (the sense of necessity) entails existing in every logically possible world. But it seems quite possible that what has been created (or rather, all of reality) is contingent. So long as it is, there is a possible world where there is only one necessary being exemplified, alone. But if this is possible, then by the S5 axiom it is impossible for there to be two necessary beings. To deny this means saying it is impossible only one necessary being exists, which seems quite dubious, to say the least.
 
Quote:
Secondly, even if omnipotence is a property of the divine essence, power can only be exemplified by volitional acts.  Since there are three persons, there are three sets of volition.  And yet it's clear that the Son could not exercise His volition in such a way so as to cause the Spirit to cease existing.  So how can the Son be omnipotent?  It won't help to say that the persons of the Trinity are in unity and thus cannot conflict in will, because what's at issue here is not how the persons of the Trinity in fact relate to one another, but what is possible for them to do.  Omnipotence does not entail that a being who possesses it must do everything that is within his power to do, but merely that he be able to do so if he so chooses.  But with the Trinity, we would have a situation in which none of the three persons could destroy the others even if He wanted to.  And if there is something He cannot do, then He is not omnipotent.  So again, given your definition of omnipotence, how can the Trinity of divine persons be said to be omnipotent?

I think there are two separate issues here. Though the members of the Trinity are separate persons, they are not separate beings. As an indivisible being, the Spirit cannot logically cause the nonexistence of the Son. The second issue is that omnipotence does not entail the ability to do anything, but the ability to do what is logically possible. If the persons of the Trinity are the same being, it does not make sense to say that being can cause its non-existence. What your objection really boils down to is whether or not the person's will(s) can be different from each other. As it relates to God Himself, the creation, and those initial acts, it seems the will would not differ. In fact, the only example we are ever given of a will of one of the members differing from the other is the Son willing not to die. Yet even then His will was to do the will of the Father (though these are two different objects of will). In any case, it is only because the human nature of Christ did not wish to experience the physical, mental, and spiritual pain that the person of Christ did not wish to take it on, if there be another way.

jasondulle
Reply with quote  #5 

Hi RandyE,

 

I was not claiming that an omnipotent being could create another omnipotent being.  I agreed with Craig that this was impossible (see my initial post).  You probably interpreted my reference to “other beings” as other omnipotent beings.  I had contingent, non-omnipotent beings in mind.  I should have been clearer.

 

You argue that we can imagine/conceive of a possible world in which only one necessary being is exemplified.  Since a being cannot be necessary unless it exists in every possible world, and we have just discovered a possible world in which additional necessary beings do not obtain, there cannot be additional necessary beings.  I think I understand your argument, but I am skeptical.  My skepticism may be due to my ignorance of possible world semantics (I only know enough to be dangerous J), so bear with me.   

 

Yes, we can imagine/conceive of a possible world in which there exists only one metaphysically necessary being, but does that mean such a world is actually possible?  After all, I can imagine/conceive of a world in which God does not exist.  Why?  Because God’s existence is not logically necessary (denying the existence of God does not entail a logical contradiction).  Just because I can imagine a world without the existence of God, however, does not mean such a world is broadly logically possible.  Indeed, theists can marshal good arguments for thinking God is a metaphysically necessary being (such as the Leibnitzian Cosmological Argument and the Ontological Argument), so the ability to imagine a world without God does nothing to detract from the truth that God is a metaphysically necessary being.  Likewise, even though we can imagine/conceive of a world containing only one necessary being, that does not necessarily mean it is broadly logically possible.  Maybe there are two necessary beings, both of whom are omnipotent, and they exist in every possible world even though there is no logical contradiction in thinking that there is a world in which only one of those metaphysically necessary beings exist.  Have I gone awry in my reasoning somewhere?

 

One might ask, “But why should there exist more than one metaphysically necessary, omnipotent being?”  I have no idea—anymore than I have any idea why there is even one.  If the sufficient reason for the existence of one necessary being is that he carries within himself sufficient reason for his own existence, then I don’t see why the same could not be true of a second necessary being.  It would just be a brute fact that there are two rather than one.  

 

Granted, apart from any reason to think there are two metaphysically necessary beings there is no reason to postulate more than one (Ockham’s Razor), but likewise, apart from some reason to think such is logically impossible, I see no reason to rule it out as a possibility.  The best reason I have heard so far is Joel’s: that an omnipotent being must have the ability to destroy other beings, and yet two omnipotent beings could not destroy each other.  That seems very reasonable to me, but I thought it presented a problem for Trinitarianism.  I think your explanation resolves that problem, however.  Since each of the three persons share the same being, for person A to destroy person B would require person A to destroy His own being as well, and thus both persons would cease to exist.  And yet, a metaphysically necessary being cannot cease to exist, therefore it is logically impossible for person A to destroy person B.  The omnipotence of all divine persons in the Trinity is safeguarded.  For the sake of what it’s worthy, do you see omnipotence as a property belonging to the essence or the persons of the Trinity?  Why?

 

Let me end by saying how much I appreciate your presence on this forum.  You always have well thought out responses, and you are very congenial.  I enjoy dialoguing with you.

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