RandyE
Registered: 09/01/09
Posts: 891
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| | 11/04/09 at 10:02 AM | Reply with quote | #61 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by majinrevanQuote: Originally Posted by wonderer
1. Everything which we observe, which exhibits the characteristics of having a mind, has a physical brain on which that mind supervenes.
2. A mind cannot exist, except through supervenience on some sort of physical brain.
You cannot logically infer (2) from (1). There is no reason to think that we'd be able to observe a mind outside of a body. The best you could do is infer that brains, as opposed to, say, rocks, have the capacity to interact with minds. Plus, there are many anecdotal evidences which, if true, are sufficient to think that minds are in fact separate entities from brains.
It's an inductive argument, so (2) can be inferred from (1), just not deductively so. But I think you started to answer his argument at the end anyway. Just trying to help!
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majinrevan
Registered: 07/13/09
Posts: 316
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| | 11/04/09 at 10:09 AM | Reply with quote | #62 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by RandyE
I agree with you, but in wonderer's defense, he could change (2) to a more modest "A mind does not exist, except through supervenience on some sort of physical brain."
It's an inductive argument, so (2) can be inferred from (1), just not deductively so. But I think you started to answer his argument at the end anyway. Just trying to help!
I think that my objection still applies.
We simply have no reason to assume that we'd be able to observe
the mind if it were outside the brain.
So, while it might work as an inductive argument, it wouldn't be a very strong one.
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Lightfoot
Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 1,989
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| | 11/04/09 at 11:38 AM | Reply with quote | #63 |
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If it is true that we have never observed "minds without brains," then it is also true that we have never observed "life coming from non-life," nor have observed anything different then "cause and effect" etc.
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"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell."
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wonderer
Registered: 09/08/08
Posts: 2,835
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| | 11/04/09 at 12:00 PM | Reply with quote | #64 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by majinrevanQuote: Originally Posted by wonderer
1. Everything which we observe, which exhibits the characteristics of having a mind, has a physical brain on which that mind supervenes.
2. A mind cannot exist, except through supervenience on some sort of physical brain.
You cannot logically infer (2) from (1). There is no reason to think that we'd be able to observe a mind outside of a body. The best you could do is infer that brains, as opposed to, say, rocks, have the capacity to interact with minds.
Well strictly speaking the only mind any of us observe is our own through introspection, and we merely intuit/infer the existence of other minds as the explanation for events we attribute to a mind other than our own. If we are given anesthesia, we don't even observe our own minds. What reason is there to believe that any minds exist apart from the normal physical operation of a brain?
Quote: Plus, there are many anecdotal evidences which, if true, are sufficient
to think that minds are in fact separate entities from brains.
Such as? What effects accessible to empirical observation suggest that minds exist independent of brains?
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“It is in the admission of ignorance and the admission of uncertainty that there is a hope for the continuous motion of human beings in some direction that doesn't get confined, permanently blocked, as it has so many times before in various periods in the history of man." - Richard Feynman |
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fkeefe
Registered: 02/19/09
Posts: 877
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| | 11/04/09 at 12:25 PM | Reply with quote | #65 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by wondererQuote: Originally Posted by fkeefe
Just popped back in to see if the atheists here are still atheists and it seems nothing has changed even you Wonderer... still correcting peoples spelin mistekes I see!!lol Of course, wouldn't want such things to distain someone's brain.
Main Entry: dis·tain 
Pronunciation: dis-'tAn
Function: transitive verb
Etymology: Middle English disteynen, from Anglo-French desteindre to take away the color of, from de- + teindre to dye, from Latin tingere to wet, dye
I have a vision of your distained brain Wonderer and its atheistic red!!
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majinrevan
Registered: 07/13/09
Posts: 316
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| | 11/04/09 at 12:27 PM | Reply with quote | #66 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by wonderer
Well strictly speaking the only mind any of us observe is our own through introspection, and we merely intuit/infer the existence of other minds as the explanation for events we attribute to a mind other than our own. If we are given anesthesia, we don't even observe our own minds. What reason is there to believe that any minds exist apart from the normal physical operation of a brain?
Saying that there is no reason to believe something is vastly different
from inferring that it does not exist, even inductively.
There are many philosophical arguments for the mind existing outside
the brain, but I think that the best reason to think that the brain does
not produce the mind is subjective experience itself.
Qualia is very difficult, if not impossible, to reconcile the idea
that minds spring forth from matter.
Quote:
Such as? What effects accessible to empirical observation suggest that minds exist independent of brains?
Near death experiences:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bu1ErDeQ0Zw
Out of body experiences:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1RZRh8wbEI&feature=related
Reincarnation:
http://www.amazon.com/Life-Before-Scientific-Investigation-Childrens/dp/0312321376
Reincarnation 2 (past life regression):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HayY1yyXnn0&feature=related
If just one of these phenomena is valid, then the mind is a separate
entity from the brain.
If one were to make a cumulative case for the mind's independence, I
believe that a very convincing case would be made.
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wonderer
Registered: 09/08/08
Posts: 2,835
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| | 11/04/09 at 01:09 PM | Reply with quote | #67 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by majinrevan
Saying that there is no reason to believe something is vastly different from inferring that it does not exist, even inductively.
How so? What is the vast difference between there being no reason to believe fairies exist, and inferring that fairies don't exist? Wouldn't Occam's razor suggest, inferring that fairies don't exist.
Quote: There are many philosophical arguments for the mind existing outside the brain, but I think that the best reason to think that the brain does not produce the mind is subjective experience itself. Qualia is very difficult, if not impossible, to reconcile the idea
that minds spring forth from matter.
We don't have a good explanation for qualia at this time, but we have good reason to believe that qualia only exist with a physical brain for qualia to supervene on. (The aforementioned anesthesia, as well as many other neuroscientific findings.)
None of these things is amenable to empirical observation. They are just matters of subjective experience, on the part of ssomeone who indeed has a physical brain. In the case of NDE's, a brain suffering oxygen deprivation.
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“It is in the admission of ignorance and the admission of uncertainty that there is a hope for the continuous motion of human beings in some direction that doesn't get confined, permanently blocked, as it has so many times before in various periods in the history of man." - Richard Feynman |
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majinrevan
Registered: 07/13/09
Posts: 316
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| | 11/04/09 at 01:29 PM | Reply with quote | #68 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by wonderer
How so? What is the vast difference between there being no reason to believe fairies exist, and inferring that fairies don't exist? Wouldn't Occam's razor suggest, inferring that fairies don't exist.
It depends on whether you're speaking of beings who we should
expect to observe if they existed or beings which we would have
no inkling as to whether they existed or not even if they did exist.
Quote: We don't have a good explanation for qualia at this time, but we have good reason to believe that qualia only exist with a physical brain for qualia to supervene on. (The aforementioned anesthesia, as well as many other neuroscientific findings.)
The problem with anesthesia is that it could very well be that the person
under its influence just doesn't remember experiencing anything for that
specific duration.
We know for certain that this is mostly the case with dreaming.
In fact, if NDE's are valid, then it's more likely than not that people under
anesthesia do experience something.
Quote:
None of these things is amenable to empirical observation. They are just matters of subjective experience, on the part of ssomeone who indeed has a physical brain. In the case of NDE's, a brain suffering oxygen deprivation.
I chose these links precisely because these specific cases are amenable
to empirical observation.
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