etiainen
Registered: 07/15/08
Posts: 531
|
| | 10/16/09 at 05:28 PM | Reply with quote | #106 |
|
Quote: The beauty of the internet! lol.
describing the internet as beautiful made me imagine it as Avril Lavigne... *sigh* my one true love...
|
| Loading... | |
ubi2002
Registered: 11/30/08
Posts: 486
|
| | 10/16/09 at 05:56 PM | Reply with quote | #107 |
|
Quote: This is where things usually get comical...
What do you mean Harvey? Sorry, I'm a bit slow
|
| Loading... | |
rsmartin
Registered: 07/09/08
Posts: 2,475
|
| | 10/18/09 at 08:09 PM | Reply with quote | #108 |
|
Still no evidence for God from the boasters of sure evidence. Strange how bold they are right up till one demands evidence or else--and then they disappear.
One could almost arrive at the conclusion that Christians have but one goal in life: The conversion of the atheist.
__________________
It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. –Carl Sagan, Demon-Haunted World, p. 12 |
| Loading... | |
ubi2002
Registered: 11/30/08
Posts: 486
|
| | 10/18/09 at 08:40 PM | Reply with quote | #109 |
|
rsmartin, you still haven't provided any substancial reason why you dismissed the kalam argument (and my support for it).
And yes, salvation of individuals is one of the biggest goals of Christians. That's because we value the potential eternal life of humans.
|
| Loading... | |
harvey1
Registered: 12/04/07
Posts: 3,598
|
| | 10/18/09 at 09:14 PM | Reply with quote | #110 |
|
Quote: Originally Posted by rsmartin
Still no evidence for God from the boasters of sure evidence. Strange how bold they are right up till one demands evidence or else--and then they disappear.
One could almost arrive at the conclusion that Christians have but one goal in life: The conversion of the atheist.
I personally have given a number of arguments, and you came back with ad hominems and red herrings. In any case, this thread was created by an atheist who came to this site, and saw enough evidence since the time they registered to make this post. So, the situation is not as you make it appear.
|
| Loading... | |
rsmartin
Registered: 07/09/08
Posts: 2,475
|
| | 10/18/09 at 10:37 PM | Reply with quote | #111 |
|
Quote: Originally Posted by harvey1Quote: Originally Posted by rsmartin
Still no evidence for God from the boasters of sure evidence. Strange how bold they are right up till one demands evidence or else--and then they disappear.
One could almost arrive at the conclusion that Christians have but one goal in life: The conversion of the atheist.
I personally have given a number of arguments, and you came back with ad hominems and red herrings. In any case, this thread was created by an atheist who came to this site, and saw enough evidence since the time they registered to make this post. So, the situation is not as you make it appear.
No "red herrings" or ad homs intended on my part. Nor do I remember seeing any on your part. You just didn't reply to my last post so I assumed the Christian had no answer because there is none.
As for the "evidence" in the OP of this thread, let's examine it. Don says:
Quote: As you can see by my previous posts, I came to this board as an atheist. In June, I returned to my Catholic faith and confessed my sins to a Catholic priest, who granted me absolution and lifted my excommunication from the Church.
Apparently, Don had seen himself as an atheist at one time. I did not read the posts. He also committed what, according to the Catholic Church, is sin. He confessed this to a priest and "made things right with the Church and God," as Protestants might say. He was received back into the Church. This says a lot about Don's beliefs and relationship with the Catholic Church. It says nothing about the existence of God.
Quote: I think that religious faith versus atheism/agnosticism is seeing 'the glass' as being half-full as opposed to half-empty.
This is a comparison of different world views, and it tells us which one feels more positive for Don. It tells us nothing about the factual reality of God's existence.
Quote: Even Dawkins, in his The God Delusion, admits the possibility of God's existence,
Oh sure, God could exist if only he did. So could the Lord of the Ring. This is evidence for absolutely nothing except that Dawkins, the world's most famous atheist of the moment, made that statement.
Quote: stating in his lectures that he is a 6.8 on his 1 to 7 scale. Converting this equal-interval scale to a ratio scale means that Dawkins believes that there is a 1 in 30 chance that God exists. Not too bad, even by his standards.
As stated, Dawkins's statement is no evidence for God's existence or nonexistence.
Quote: What convinced me? Well, probably, the Argument from Consciousness, and especially, the private notes from the late Mother Teresa. Dr. Craig, to my knowledge, has never used this argument in any of his debates. For me, however, it is a compelling argument, basically, that we are something more than just "molecules in motion." I think that this is an insurmountable problem for modern atheistic apologetics.
For some reason, Don was convinced that because humans and other sentient beings have consciousness, there must be a God of the Bible. He does not explain how "consciousness in sentient beings" leads to the "God of the Bible." We know for a fact that "intelligence" can be artificially manufactured to the extent that programs such as Amazon uses can predict accurately what books I might like to buy. I am seldom disappointed by Amazon's suggestions; the program really does work.
He does not tell us what specific content of the notes convinced him. I seem to remember from earlier reading that Mother Theresa said something in the notes about not being able to perceive God. Sam Harris came to a very opposite conclusion as did Don.
It would seem as somehow compelling evidence that God does not exist if even Mother Theresa, in her lifelong dedication to God, could not perceive him. What is more shocking than all that is her Father Confessor's response that she should accept this as okay. To me, at first, that is permission from the top human authorities that God does not exist.
However, I realize that this was a misunderstanding on my part. The Father Confessor meant that if she could not perceive God's presence, probably Christ could not perceive God's presence, either. (My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me!) And she should think of this, and console herself with the thought that Jesus was willing to give himself anyway, despite being unable to feel God's presence. My guess is that these are the "private notes" of Mother Theresa that Don refers to.
Factually, however, these note are evidence of nothing more than this one woman's experience and beliefs, etc. If God exists, he could--and should--make himself manifest to humans today just like he used to in biblical days to his people and disciples. The Bible promises that he will do so.
Quote: Faith need not be absolute. I can admit that I could be wrong. So, on Dawkins' scale, I would put myself around the 2.5 to 3.0 mark.
That first line really grabs my attention: Faith need not be absolute. So you put your entire life on hold, and the lives of your children and grandchildren. You deny life and education and social progress to the rest of the world--all based on the fact that you could be wrong and that God might exist.
Put hundreds of millions of such people into two of the world's most barbarous--and wealthy but uneducated-- countries and you get endless warfare, i.e. the United States and Iraq, and the United States and Afghanistan.
Please! Look at what religion is doing to our planet and its inhabitants.
None of this, however, proves that any kind of God exists. In fact, it proves quite the opposite! Either the Muslim God, the Jewish God, or the Christian God should have manifested himself by now IF he existed. That no god of any kind has intervened throughout the entire twentieth century of world wars, or this decade of terrorism, proves that there is no god who could intervene even if he wanted to.
Prove me wrong!
Harvey, if you've got evidence, you won't even think of calling this "red herrings" or ad homs because I'm serious and genuine; I have no time to "play games." If you have no evidence, you'll find all kinds of names and labels for this post.
__________________
It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. –Carl Sagan, Demon-Haunted World, p. 12 |
| Loading... | |
harvey1
Registered: 12/04/07
Posts: 3,598
|
| | 10/18/09 at 10:46 PM | Reply with quote | #112 |
|
Quote: Originally Posted by rsmartin
You just didn't reply to my last post so I assumed the Christian had no answer because there is none.
Quote: Originally Posted by rsmartin
Harvey, if you've got evidence, you won't even think of calling this "red herrings" or ad homs because I'm serious and genuine; I have no time to "play games." If you have no evidence, you'll find all kinds of names and labels for this post.
Well, let's take Jehanne's argument. What is your argument against that argument. Your counterargument:
Quote: We know for a fact that "intelligence" can be artificially manufactured to the extent that programs such as Amazon uses can predict accurately what books I might like to buy. I am seldom disappointed by Amazon's suggestions; the program really does work.
doesn't address the issue at all.
|
| Loading... | |
rsmartin
Registered: 07/09/08
Posts: 2,475
|
| | 10/19/09 at 12:13 AM | Reply with quote | #113 |
|
Quote: Originally Posted by harvey1Quote: Originally Posted by rsmartin
You just didn't reply to my last post so I assumed the Christian had no answer because there is none. I don't recall the last post that you are referring to. Maybe I missed it. Quote: Originally Posted by rsmartin
Harvey, if you've got evidence, you won't even think of calling this "red herrings" or ad homs because I'm serious and genuine; I have no time to "play games." If you have no evidence, you'll find all kinds of names and labels for this post.
Well, let's take Jehanne's argument. What is your argument against that argument. Your counterargument: Quote: We know for a fact that "intelligence" can be artificially manufactured to the extent that programs such as Amazon uses can predict accurately what books I might like to buy. I am seldom disappointed by Amazon's suggestions; the program really does work. doesn't address the issue at all.
How does it not address the issue? Let's put it this way: What, in your opinion, is the issue?
Also, you copied only part of my rebuttal. I'll copy it here and break it down into the various points:
For some reason, Don was convinced that because humans and other sentient beings have consciousness, there must be a God of the Bible.
- He does not explain how "consciousness in sentient beings" leads to (or is evidence of) the "God of the Bible."
- We know for a fact that "intelligence" can be artificially manufactured to the extent that programs such as Amazon uses can predict accurately what books I might like to buy. I am seldom disappointed by Amazon's suggestions; the program really does work.
Human consciousness is electromagnetic activity in the physical brain. So is artificial intelligence in machines. We may not yet have learned how to make machines that can "think" quite as effectively as humans, but we know how to improve human neural functioning with the aid of computer chips. From a scientific or factual perspective, I dare say the line between consciousness and intelligence is very thin. I do not believe that machines are self-conscious in that they can experience pain or have an understanding of the self in the sense that humans and some animals can. Obviously, statistical analysis is used to program Amazon to show what books a person is likely to buy, based on choices made, i.e. "People who bought [this book] also bought [this book]."
My Point: Since consciousness is electromagnetic neural activity on the brain in the same manner as artificial intelligence is electromagnetic activity in machines that can be manufactured by humans, I see zero evidence for God in consciousness. Even if this were not the case with manufactured machines, I would still be incapable of accepting consciousness as evidence for God. Humans just are this way, with or without God. If God wishes to manifest himself he must do so from outside any naturally occurring phenomenon, as promised in the Bible.
In the Bible, God can split the sea when Moses or Elijah strike it with their cloaks. God can raise the dead and heal the sick. Jesus can turn water to wine. Jesus can walk on water. He can fly off to heaven. He can multiply a few loaves of bread and fishes into vast amounts of food that would eradicate starvation in Africa. None of these things happen today. This despite the fact that Jesus promised that his disciples would do greater miracles than he. There is so much missionary activity in Africa, it should be the most prosperous land on earth, if the Bible promises were true. HIV, AIDS, and STDs should all be healed by a touch or the shadow of a missionary falling on a sick person, like that of Peter.
Bad wells should be purified by Old Testament means of casting a tree into it (I'm not sure of the details; it happened in the wilderness when they found water that was not good). In deserts, God's followers should be able to strike a rock with a stick and get water for humans and animals alike.
If these kinds of miracles consistently followed the people professing beliefs in God, and not any other people, then it would be pretty obvious that God existed. I read a story of the time of the plague in Medieval Europe and the Middle East. A king who was not very pious was convicted that possibly it was his sinful ways that brought on the plague. He started a pilgrimage to Rome or wherever to repent and mend his ways. While on his way, word was brought to him of believers also dying. He gave up in despair and returned home. This was evidence to him that God either didn't exist or didn't care what people believed or how they lived; the pious and impious alike were dying by the droves.
Those are some ways in which God could manifest himself if he wanted to. Obviously, though, one prerequisite would be for him to exist.
__________________
It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. –Carl Sagan, Demon-Haunted World, p. 12 |
| Loading... | |
Lightfoot
Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 1,989
|
| | 10/19/09 at 12:34 AM | Reply with quote | #114 |
|
harvey
There are a lot of atheists now either returning or coming to faith and I find them extremely gifted in the faith. Its interesting how this is starting to take place simultaneously.
I don't know if you saw the blog i referenced:
http://www.conversiondiary.com/
I find that lady to be pretty amazing actually. There a number of other sites I could link to and of course from personal experiences lately, its almost as if another movement is being born.
__________________
"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell."
C.S Lewis |
| Loading... | |
