eric
Registered: 12/03/07
Posts: 4,158
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| | 07/08/09 at 07:01 PM | Reply with quote | #16 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by Craig
Eric, I am not convinced. First of all we are deailng with a spiritual realm that is not even described in the Bible at all..so how could it be "Biblically correct"? Not to mention physical matter would not exist in a spiritual realm. Also other people have seen demons and they are "shades of black or darkness" that resemble little gremlins or "monkeys" and the such. I have never heard of reptilian demons.
He said didn't know what they were, that maybe they were related to the 'Nephilim' of Genesis somehow. I am not about to limit the number and types of forms that are possible for fallen evil beings to take. Also, if what he described is not in contradiction with scripture, then it can be true. Enarchay thinks it conflicts with scripture but that's his problem.
Quote: And why in the world would Jesus put him in hell for 23 minutes? Would your own father put you in a gas chamber just to get a swig of the smell and to see how bad it is? I mean seriously. Why didnt Jesus just take him up to heaven and give him a positive thrust to spread the gospel rather than a negative one.
Jesus' father put him on a cross to die an excruciating and slow death and put the sins of the world upon him. Why? Because the end result was worth it.
Obviously Bill Weise doesn't resent his being used in the service of the kingdom. His book is being read by many. There are plenty of similar books about people who saw heaven. There is a need for an eyewitness account of hell, too, evidently, as there are people who are harder to motivate than just showing them a carrot. Some people need the stick. Some people are motivated to work hard and get educated for an upper class life. Others are content with a roof, a TV, and the national Enquirer with their Kraft mac 'n cheese. But even some of those people can be motivated by the threat of hard labor and imprisonment. Carrot and stick works best. Jesus knew this principle well and implemented it.
Quote: Also, you said it right: He was sleeping. I have had dreams where I have gone to hell and heaven alike. Do I think i was out of my body and really there? No...I woke up and im still on earth.
...and you knew you'd just had a dream.
Quote: I really am skeptical of this. People see and experience strange things. If the muslim had a "vision" or "Out of body" experience where he met allah and the virigins...would you believe him or be skeptical? You cant be all accepting of one view and be skeptical of another....be skeptical of everything...eat the hay and leave the sticks.
I would be skeptical of a Muslim's vision of paradise, since in the Koran Allah/Muhammed actually endorses propagation of Islam through the use of the lie, unlike Jesus and the Apostles who were dedicated to truth.I actually do think that Muslim suicide bombers get their 72 virgins when they get blown up, but their dick is missing. (Did I just think that, or actually type it?!)
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One person with God is a majority.
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enarchay
Registered: 04/29/09
Posts: 366
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| | 07/08/09 at 07:45 PM | Reply with quote | #17 |
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Quote: So I suppose he was saying something there in Luke that is not clear from a plain reading, right?
Well, I don't see much reason to suppose Jesus himself really said it. But whoever said it, I don't think the meaning is "clear" - that's the whole point of a parable.
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enarchay
Registered: 04/29/09
Posts: 366
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| | 07/08/09 at 07:48 PM | Reply with quote | #18 |
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How could immaterial substances have reproductive organs, anyhow?
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eric
Registered: 12/03/07
Posts: 4,158
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| | 07/09/09 at 12:02 AM | Reply with quote | #19 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by enarchayQuote: So I suppose he was saying something there in Luke that is not clear from a plain reading, right? Well, I don't see much reason to suppose Jesus himself really said it. But whoever said it, I don't think the meaning is "clear" - that's the whole point of a parable. OK now i see where you are coming from. You're like the Jesus Seminar guys. That explains it.
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tcampen
Registered: 03/09/09
Posts: 1,201
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| | 07/09/09 at 02:46 AM | Reply with quote | #20 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by eric Quote:
This is not a near death experience. Wiese was sleeping in his bed at 3:00 a.m. when he was catepulted into hell for 23 minutes and personally experienced what hell was like - with horrible, evil demons and all. Then he was placed back into he bedroom at home, shaken up by the experience.
...and there was no lost time or memory blockage needing hypnosis sessions to reveal.
Just like so many alien abductions.
Quote: Quote: If this sounds familiar, then it probably is. Detailed accounts of malevolent alien abductions have been around for many years, and have remarkable parallels to Wiese's story. I don't know what's true or not. But I wouldn't call him a liar, necessarily, anymore than I'd say all alien abductees are liars.
I take it you believe alien abductions are a merely psychological phenomenon....
Actually, I don't know. I was only pointing out that such lucid experiences are not uncommon. Wiese's experience appears far, far more unique (he's the only one, apparently) than alien abductions - for whatever it's worth.
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I do not believe in a personal God. - Albert Einstein |
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wonderer
Registered: 09/08/08
Posts: 2,835
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| | 07/09/09 at 09:05 AM | Reply with quote | #21 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by eric
...evidently, as there are people who are harder to motivate than just showing them a carrot. Some people need the stick.
Like I say religions are human cultural tools our species uses to domesticate it's own members. At least you recognize the carrot and the stick. Do you also realize the carrot and stick don't need to exist to get the desired effect? Simply belief that the carrot and stick exist is all that's needed.
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“It is in the admission of ignorance and the admission of uncertainty that there is a hope for the continuous motion of human beings in some direction that doesn't get confined, permanently blocked, as it has so many times before in various periods in the history of man." - Richard Feynman |
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Lightfoot
Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 1,989
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| | 07/09/09 at 09:19 AM | Reply with quote | #22 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by wondererQuote: Originally Posted by eric
...evidently, as there are people who are harder to motivate than just showing them a carrot. Some people need the stick.
Like I say religions are human cultural tools our species uses to domesticate it's own members. At least you recognize the carrot and the stick. Do you also realize the carrot and stick don't need to exist to get the desired effect? Simply belief that the carrot and stick exist is all that's needed.
You continually make the error of genetic fallacy. Explaining the origin of a belief or system of belief does nothing to prove the belief wrong or right.
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"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell."
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wonderer
Registered: 09/08/08
Posts: 2,835
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| | 07/09/09 at 09:58 AM | Reply with quote | #23 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by LightfootQuote: Originally Posted by wondererQuote: Originally Posted by eric
...evidently, as there are people who are harder to motivate than just showing them a carrot. Some people need the stick.
Like I say religions are human cultural tools our species uses to domesticate it's own members. At least you recognize the carrot and the stick. Do you also realize the carrot and stick don't need to exist to get the desired effect? Simply belief that the carrot and stick exist is all that's needed. You continually make the error of genetic fallacy. Explaining the origin of a belief or system of belief does nothing to prove the belief wrong or right.
The fact is, human psychology plays a huge role in the beliefs humans develop. To ignore that fact is extremely naive.
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“It is in the admission of ignorance and the admission of uncertainty that there is a hope for the continuous motion of human beings in some direction that doesn't get confined, permanently blocked, as it has so many times before in various periods in the history of man." - Richard Feynman |
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Lightfoot
Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 1,989
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| | 07/09/09 at 01:07 PM | Reply with quote | #24 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by wondererQuote: Originally Posted by LightfootQuote: Originally Posted by wondererQuote: Originally Posted by eric
...evidently, as there are people who are harder to motivate than just showing them a carrot. Some people need the stick.
Like I say religions are human cultural tools our species uses to domesticate it's own members. At least you recognize the carrot and the stick. Do you also realize the carrot and stick don't need to exist to get the desired effect? Simply belief that the carrot and stick exist is all that's needed. You continually make the error of genetic fallacy. Explaining the origin of a belief or system of belief does nothing to prove the belief wrong or right. You continually make the error of assuming that I'm trying to prove something. The fact is, human psychology plays a huge role in the beliefs humans develop. To ignore that fact is extremely naive.
You either are not reading what other people are writing or skimming throught it with your mind made up. Nothing you just said touched what I am talking about.
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"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell."
C.S Lewis |
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wonderer
Registered: 09/08/08
Posts: 2,835
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| | 07/09/09 at 02:01 PM | Reply with quote | #25 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by Lightfoot
You either are not reading what other people are writing or skimming throught it with your mind made up. Nothing you just said touched what I am talking about.
You are presenting a false dichotomy here. Unfortunately, I don't have time or motivation to teach you psychology, and remove your naivete on the subject.
That your naivete prevents you from seeing the significant factors touched on by my comments, doesn't mean my comments didn't touch on significant factors.
The fact that within the domain of philosophical argument, the genetic fallacy can provide a valid basis for objection, is tangential to factors of human psychology/motivation. I wasn't trying to prove that heaven and hell don't exist, I was pointing out the relevance that belief in heaven and hell have for human psychology, regardless of whether heaven and hell exist.
There is 'psychological soundness' to Eric's attempts to inspire fear of hell in people. We react much more strongly to fear than hope. This is consistent with evolutionary psychology, and has been borne out in experiments. If a member of an evolutionarily ancestral species saw an apple tree with ripe apples, and a lion laying in the shade under it, unless the fear response outweighed his desire for apples, he likely didn't pass on any genes to us.
Fear needed to be more powerful than desire to keep our ancestors alive. Perhaps Eric recognizes in himself that fear of hell plays the more powerful role in keeping him believing, than desire does.
[Ok, I guess I'm willing to teach a little psychology.]
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“It is in the admission of ignorance and the admission of uncertainty that there is a hope for the continuous motion of human beings in some direction that doesn't get confined, permanently blocked, as it has so many times before in various periods in the history of man." - Richard Feynman |
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enarchay
Registered: 04/29/09
Posts: 366
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| | 07/09/09 at 05:40 PM | Reply with quote | #26 |
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Quote: OK now i see where you are coming from. You're like the Jesus Seminar guys. That explains it.
No, I'm not. I don't believe Jesus was a "wisdom teacher," but rather an apocalyptic Jew.
However, I do believe that the gospel authors worked with oral (or written) tradition - e.g. "Q" - and didn't have a problem with molding that tradition into their own narrative construction. Since the parable of Lazarus and Dives is not contained in any of the other gospels, is very unique when compared to the other parables, and shares strong paralells with other similar stories of the time, I find it unlikely that Jesus himself uttered the parable, though he probably communicated the message contained in the parable on more than one occasion.
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rsmartin
Registered: 07/09/08
Posts: 2,475
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| | 07/09/09 at 05:50 PM | Reply with quote | #27 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by Craig
If the muslim had a "vision" or "Out of body" experience where he met allah and the virigins...would you believe him or be skeptical? You cant be all accepting of one view and be skeptical of another....be skeptical of everything...eat the hay and leave the sticks.
That was a major piece of evidence for me about the existence/nonexistence of God and the spirit world.
In my study of other religions (commonly known as primitive or Aboriginal religions) I found that these people had the exact same kind of religious experiences that Christians had, and that they would revert to the religion of their childhood when faced with death. One man shared about a near death experience, or a dream he had when he was delirious (that is how it was explained back then).
He thought he went to heaven but he did not see any moccasin footprints; all he saw was the boot prints of white men. When he recovered, he returned to the beliefs of his own people because he did not want to be in heaven alone with white people. That told me he experienced the exact same thing that very many people experience who are, or were, Christians.
I read and learned about so many other similar experiences. They are too many to ignore. All religions and deities are equal. The reason Christians disagree is that they have never been True Believers in any other religion. If readers consider that statement to be false, please explain and provide the evidence to support your argument.
Thank you.
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It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. –Carl Sagan, Demon-Haunted World, p. 12 |
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saibomb
Registered: 06/02/08
Posts: 874
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| | 07/09/09 at 06:05 PM | Reply with quote | #28 |
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Quote: The reason Christians disagree is that they have never been True Believers in any other religion.
Check out Dr. Craigs new current events audio blog. I think you'll find it in opposition to that statement. |
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eric
Registered: 12/03/07
Posts: 4,158
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| | 07/10/09 at 10:07 AM | Reply with quote | #29 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by enarchayQuote: OK now i see where you are coming from. You're like the Jesus Seminar guys. That explains it. No, I'm not. I don't believe Jesus was a "wisdom teacher," but rather an apocalyptic Jew. However, I do believe that the gospel authors worked with oral (or written) tradition - e.g. "Q" - and didn't have a problem with molding that tradition into their own narrative construction. Since the parable of Lazarus and Dives is not contained in any of the other gospels, is very unique when compared to the other parables, and shares strong paralells with other similar stories of the time, I find it unlikely that Jesus himself uttered the parable, though he probably communicated the message contained in the parable on more than one occasion.
It's not a freakin' parable.
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One person with God is a majority.
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