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Papadot
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Registered: 04/13/09
Posts: 62

    05/09/09 at 04:52 PMReply with quote#1

There seems to be some confusion among theists as to what constitutes and ideology such that they believe atheism is one. This is categorically incorrect by definition, although likewise the same could be said of theism. However in practice, theism in the wider social context is synonymous with religion and so when we refer to theism, what we are really referring to is ‘theistic religion’ which in practice is an ideology, a social control mechanism.  

 

Theism in definitive terms is a positive belief in the existence of gods. In practice the belief in a god manifests into the belief in acting out the wishes of the said god such that  the ensuing patterns of behaviour follow the social ideals of the particular group of theists who now form a religion i.e. Theism in context of its function or how it operates in the world, is a social ideology based on the perceived wishes and commands of the god concerned.

         Atheism in definitive terms (and in its basic form) is ‘not having a positive belief in the existence of gods’. Since there is no perceived god, nor replacement focal point, there are no perceived instructions to follow, so there is no ideology to be had. So in any meaningful sense, theism equates to theistic religion and is an ideology whereas atheism isn’t.

         Ideologies which do not include the working instructions of a god can be described as ‘atheistic’ but this merely informs the person that the former applies and does not suggest actions consistent with ‘not believing in gods’ form the basis of the ideology i.e The ideals are not based on atheism although they will be atheistic in as much as no god is included. They will have there own reasoning to support their ideology eg Communism with its own social structure and MO (nb: no mention of lack of gods here, they just aren’t included!).   

                    In the same way that Communism could be described as atheistic then so could Capitalism as its ideology does not revolve around a god. In fact theism in the western world is now so subservient and obedient to the ideals of capitalism that we often hear the complaint that ‘money is the new god’. Well, in any meaningful sense it is!

 

 Capitalism, Communism and Theism are in every sense, social control mechanisms. They even have their own subcategorized variant forms which follow the same basic MO as the header category e.g. Monetarism, Marxism and Islamism, respectively. They also have hierarchal structure and a central ideal to which the belief is attached and once you stop believing in the ideal, it all disappears into thin air.

rsmartin
Registered: 07/09/08
Posts: 2,475

    05/09/09 at 06:47 PMReply with quote#2

Excellent proposition!

Can you clarify what "MO" stands for?

Thanks.

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It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. –Carl Sagan, Demon-Haunted World, p. 12
Snakeystew
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    05/09/09 at 06:49 PMReply with quote#3

Modus Operandi, (method/mode of operation)

rsmartin
Registered: 07/09/08
Posts: 2,475

    05/10/09 at 01:12 AMReply with quote#4

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snakeystew

Modus Operandi, (method/mode of operation)



Thanks!

I've been trying really hard to figure out where the Christians on these forums are coming from when they claim to know what we believe due to our "atheistic worldview."
  1. It feels like they think they can control what an atheist thinks and believes about reality.
  2. They seem to claim omniscience (the power of knowing what other people think).
  3. They seem to hold a rigidly black and white view of the world; if we don't believe what they do they think we must of necessity believe the exact opposite--defined in their terms. 
The wiki article on presuppositionalist theology gave me some insight. It seems to be beneath their dignity to legitimize our point of view by granting as valid a view that does not include god. For some of these people (and I'm not sure that this is in the linked article) all morals are believed to originate from their god. In other words, any good deed done, or any decent word spoken, by an atheist is of necessity the outcome of their god because their god is the source and originator of goodness.

Thus:
All good things come from God.
Morals come from God.
Therefore God exists.
I'm sure I'm doing something wrong with this syllogism but it's circular thinking no matter how you set it up.
Morality proves the existence of God.
God is the originator and source of morals.
It's all so convoluted and twisted in one big game that it's really hard to get one's head around it. The strawmen they errect in order to blow to bits are simply ridiculous. But they always pat themselves on the back at their cunning in blowing up yet another strawman.

It's getting late and I'm not sure if I'm making sense anymore.


__________________
It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. –Carl Sagan, Demon-Haunted World, p. 12
SecretAsianMan
Registered: 03/10/09
Posts: 126

    05/10/09 at 05:11 AMReply with quote#5

Is this for reals?

Theism, a social control mechanism on par with Communism and Capitalism?

Theism is a METAPHYSICAL claim. It claim that God exist. It's on par with the philosophical claim that external objects exist independent of the mind. Is realism and idealism a social control mechanism? If I claim that color and matter exist, have I just developed a social control mechanism? Yes, there's branches of Theism, but there's branches of realism and idealism as well. Communism is a political theory, not a metaphysical theory.

Therefore, communism does not have atheism as its base because they are two totally different things. Atheism is the claim that God doesn't exist. If I claim that matter or colors do not exist, then I have to back that up. Same goes for anything else in metaphysics.

wonderer
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Registered: 09/08/08
Posts: 2,835

    05/10/09 at 07:49 AMReply with quote#6

Quote:
Originally Posted by SecretAsianMan
Is this for reals?

Theism, a social control mechanism on par with Communism and Capitalism?


As the OP took care to point out, it is theistic religion which is a social control mechanism. The carrot and stick of religiously proposed heaven and hell are effective in influencing the actions of those who believe that heaven and hell exist. There is no need for heaven and hell to actually exist in order for the belief in heaven and hell to make people amenable to influence by others who evoke those beliefs, and the emotional reactions associated with them.
__________________
“It is in the admission of ignorance and the admission of uncertainty that there is a hope for the continuous motion of human beings in some direction that doesn't get confined, permanently blocked, as it has so many times before in various periods in the history of man." - Richard Feynman
harvey1
Registered: 12/04/07
Posts: 3,598

    05/10/09 at 09:07 AMReply with quote#7

Quote:
Originally Posted by Papadot
Atheism in definitive terms (and in its basic form) is ‘not having a positive belief in the existence of gods’. Since there is no perceived god, nor replacement focal point, there are no perceived instructions to follow, so there is no ideology to be had. So in any meaningful sense, theism equates to theistic religion and is an ideology whereas atheism isn’t. . . In the same way that Communism could be described as atheistic then so could Capitalism as its ideology does not revolve around a god.

The problem I have here is that there are different senses of the term theism. There are theists (i.e., those who believe in a personal omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient deity), deists, pantheists, panentheists, etc., and they all believe in God. Atheism denies the existence of deism, pantheism, etc. That is, it denies a larger definition of theism that includes all of these non-theisms. So, what exactly is atheism denying if it rejects all these non-theisms? It obviously rejects any kind of objective intention existing in the world. Or, to put it in terms of the positive, atheism is the view that the world is entirely purposeless or entirely open as to its direction. The universe is because it is, and the universe does what it does.

There are many ideologies that can form as a result of this one basic belief system. They are usually anti-religious ideologies because religion is the view that the world has purpose, so we ought to guide our society in ways that conform to those perceived metphysical purposes. Since atheism has it that those are fictional purposes, and that the world is metaphysically open with regard to purpose (i.e., purposes are all subjective), atheist ideologies focus on subjective purposes existing in the world. Therefore, an atheist ideology may try to suppress religious freedoms because it sees religion as anti-subjective purpose, and hence an enemy of the state. It might see capitalism as anti-subjective purpose by endowing capital principles with purposive-talk (e.g., individual rights, etc.).

So, I disagree, there are atheist ideologies. The North Korean dictator Kim Jong-Il is currently one of the chief atheist idealogues in the world.
wonderer
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    05/10/09 at 10:03 AMReply with quote#8

Quote:
Originally Posted by harvey1
So, I disagree, there are atheist ideologies. The North Korean dictator Kim Jong-Il is currently one of the chief atheist idealogues in the world.


My (fairly ignorant) impression is that North Korea operates with a cult of personality as it's ideology, with KJI filling the role of supreme being, and playing God. People being indoctrinated with an ideology simply isn't the same thing as an individual freely realizing that there is no need for the god hypothesis.
__________________
“It is in the admission of ignorance and the admission of uncertainty that there is a hope for the continuous motion of human beings in some direction that doesn't get confined, permanently blocked, as it has so many times before in various periods in the history of man." - Richard Feynman
Papadot
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Registered: 04/13/09
Posts: 62

    05/11/09 at 11:20 AMReply with quote#9

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snakeystew

Modus Operandi, (method/mode of operation)

rsmartin:-

Thanks!

I've been trying really hard to figure out where the Christians on these forums are coming from when they claim to know what we believe due to our "atheistic worldview."

  1. It feels like they think they can control what an atheist thinks and believes about reality.
  2. They seem to claim omniscience (the power of knowing what other people think).
  3. They seem to hold a rigidly black and white view of the world; if we don't believe what they do they think we must of necessity believe the exact opposite--defined in their terms. 

The wiki article on presuppositionalist theology gave me some insight. It seems to be beneath their dignity to legitimize our point of view by granting as valid a view that does not include god. For some of these people (and I'm not sure that this is in the linked article) all morals are believed to originate from their god. In other words, any good deed done, or any decent word spoken, by an atheist is of necessity the outcome of their god because their god is the source and originator of goodness.

Thus:

All good things come from God.
Morals come from God.
Therefore God exists.

I'm sure I'm doing something wrong with this syllogism but it's circular thinking no matter how you set it up.

Morality proves the existence of God.
God is the originator and source of morals.
It's all so convoluted and twisted in one big game that it's really hard to get one's head around it. The strawmen they errect in order to blow to bits are simply ridiculous. But they always pat themselves on the back at their cunning in blowing up yet another strawman.

It's getting late and I'm not sure if I'm making sense anymore.


pap:-
That's about the long and the short of it as far as I can tell. It's all very Darwinian if you ask me. To support their own ideology they try to attack the efficacy of that which is attacking it. The problem is atheism isn't an ideology so they have to make it one first!


Papadot
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Registered: 04/13/09
Posts: 62

    05/11/09 at 11:24 AMReply with quote#10

harvey1

The problem I have here is that there are different senses of the term theism.

There are theists (i.e., those who believe in a personal omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient deity), deists, pantheists, panentheists, etc., and they all believe in God.

 

Pap:-

Plus polytheists etc who believe in many gods but what you have shown here is not so much different senses of theism but merely the many and varied  ‘god-models’ that abound within the category of theism (i.e. god-belief). They all come under theism, they just don’t agree with each other and there are those which are mutually exclusive.

 

 

harvey1:-

Atheism denies the existence of deism, pantheism, etc. That is, it denies a larger definition of theism that includes all of these non-theisms. So, what exactly is atheism denying if it rejects all these non-theisms

 

 

Pap:-

I’m not sure whether you typed what you meant here as all those you mentioned are god-models hence ‘theism’ applies to them all (i.e. belief in gods). Atheism simply means you have no positive belief in the object of theist belief, which should be self-explanatory. 

         There are contexts to atheism though i.e. weak and strong atheism being flavour of the month, with my above statement being classed as ‘weak atheism’ and your take on atheism being ‘strong atheism’ i.e. actual denial of the existence of a particular god or ‘god-model’. 

          In that respect we are both strong atheists with regard to the Norse gods but I am likewise with regard to the Abrahamic god (whichever version). I am a ‘weak’ atheist with regard to pantheism because there is so little detail involved (as far as I am aware) that I have nothing with which to formulate either a positive belief ‘for’ or ‘against’. I am unconvinced by the claims and thus remain an atheist.

 

harvey1:-

It obviously rejects any kind of objective intention existing in the world. Or, to put it in terms of the positive, atheism is the view that the world is entirely purposeless or entirely open as to its direction. The universe is because it is, and the universe does what it does.

 

 

Pap:-

I would say yes to this, mainly because I question whether it’s reasonable to pre-suppose ‘intention’ into the world as there appears to be no basis for doing this. The term ‘objective intention’ alludes to a purpose or goal for the universe and again, this should not be pre-supposed without good reason and any reason should itself, not be built on another pre-supposition as all you have is compounded guesswork.  

 

 

ps I'll respond to the remainder of your post in my next one as this was getting quite long. 

Papadot
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Registered: 04/13/09
Posts: 62

    05/11/09 at 11:26 AMReply with quote#11

remainder of original post by harvey1:-

 

harvey1;-
There are many ideologies that can form as a result of this one basic belief system. They are usually anti-religious ideologies because religion is the view that the world has purpose, so we ought to guide our society in ways that conform to those perceived metphysical purposes. Since atheism has it that those are fictional purposes, and that the world is metaphysically open with regard to purpose (i.e., purposes are all subjective), atheist ideologies focus on subjective purposes existing in the world. Therefore, an atheist ideology may try to suppress religious freedoms because it sees religion as anti-subjective purpose, and hence an enemy of the state.

 It might see capitalism as anti-subjective purpose by endowing capital principles with purposive-talk (e.g., individual rights, etc.).

 

Pap:-

The objective purpose is to function well as a society as an aid to our survival as a species. It’s what all organisms do i.e. do what’s they can to survive. Subjective purpose pertains to the particular belief within an ideology so communism has subjective purpose (what it perceives as the goals to strive for) but so too does theism (context theist religion). Theism does not have true objective purpose, it has a subjective purpose which its followers perceive to be objective but it isn’t (because they’re only perceiving it, it’s subjective)


harvey1:-
So, I disagree, there are atheist ideologies. The North Korean dictator Kim Jong-Il is currently one of the chief atheist idealogues in the world.

 

 

Pap:-

Yes there are eg Buddhism (general context) is also an atheist ideology. After much thought and reasoning they decided they had no need of gods and wrote them out of the script. They don’t commit atrocities. Environmentalism is an ideology as it has no gods, so it’s atheist in as much it doesn’t revolve around the perceived commands of a god.  

            Basically, to suit whatever purpose, theists are referring to the adjective instead of the noun or the ideology itself. Communism is your competing social ideology, not atheism.   

harvey1
Registered: 12/04/07
Posts: 3,598

    05/11/09 at 08:12 PMReply with quote#12

Quote:
Originally Posted by Papadot
Atheism simply means you have no positive belief in the object of theist belief, which should be self-explanatory. . .‘strong atheism’ i.e. actual denial of the existence of a particular god or ‘god-model’. 


This is not correct. Atheism is understood within philosophy as the outright denial of God's existence. Strong atheism is the belief that God is logically or definitionally not possible, whereas weak atheism is understood as it is possible that God exists, but probably doesn't exist given the evidence at hand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Papadot
Environmentalism is an ideology as it has no gods, so it’s atheist in as much it doesn’t revolve around the perceived commands of a god.


There's a difference between an ideology that is atheistic and an ideology that is not related to the philosophy of religion. Environmentalism is not related to the philosophy of religion, but it is not atheistic. An atheistic ideology is one based on atheism. So, in the case of Marxist Communism, this is an atheistic ideology since atheism forms a central core to the philosophy of Marxism and Leninism.
wonderer
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Posts: 2,835

    05/12/09 at 12:39 PMReply with quote#13

Quote:
Originally Posted by harvey1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Papadot
Atheism simply means you have no positive belief in the object of theist belief, which should be self-explanatory. . .‘strong atheism’ i.e. actual denial of the existence of a particular god or ‘god-model’. 


This is not correct. Atheism is understood within philosophy as the outright denial of God's existence. Strong atheism is the belief that God is logically or definitionally not possible, whereas weak atheism is understood as it is possible that God exists, but probably doesn't exist given the evidence at hand.

So what would you suggest that someone call themself if:

1.  They don't believe that God exists.
2.  They don't believe an utterly sound argument for the non-existence of God can be made.
3.  They don't want to use the word "agnostic" to describe themselves, because that has a connotation of not having a definite opinion about whether God exists.

How is such a person not a "weak atheist", and therefore an atheist. 

__________________
“It is in the admission of ignorance and the admission of uncertainty that there is a hope for the continuous motion of human beings in some direction that doesn't get confined, permanently blocked, as it has so many times before in various periods in the history of man." - Richard Feynman
rsmartin
Registered: 07/09/08
Posts: 2,475

    05/12/09 at 05:06 PMReply with quote#14

Quote:
Originally Posted by harvey1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Papadot
Atheism simply means you have no positive belief in the object of theist belief, which should be self-explanatory. . .‘strong atheism’ i.e. actual denial of the existence of a particular god or ‘god-model’. 


This is not correct. Atheism is understood within philosophy as the outright denial of God's existence. Strong atheism is the belief that God is logically or definitionally not possible, whereas weak atheism is understood as it is possible that God exists, but probably doesn't exist given the evidence at hand.



You quote your favourite author and I'll quote mine. You choose what label you identify with and I'll choose mine. Nontheists do not agree among themselves regarding definitions so it's not surprising that Christians disagree. What is outrageous--or ludicrous, depending how one looks at the matter--is when Christians spend enormous amounts of time and energy to build a strawman and rip it to bits. And then think they have accomplished something.

That's like getting the Iraqi army into Washington, DC to shoot a scarecrow made to look like Barak Obama or George W. Bush or whoever. After they've killed the thing, the real guy walks out unharmed.

Because Christians never listen to what atheists actually believe, they never challenge our beliefs and we can't even see if they stand up to criticism. Please do us the favour of at least critiquing our actual beliefs once in a while.

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Papadot
Environmentalism is an ideology as it has no gods, so it’s atheist in as much it doesn’t revolve around the perceived commands of a god.


There's a difference between an ideology that is atheistic and an ideology that is not related to the philosophy of religion. Environmentalism is not related to the philosophy of religion, but it is not atheistic. An atheistic ideology is one based on atheism. So, in the case of Marxist Communism, this is an atheistic ideology since atheism forms a central core to the philosophy of Marxism and Leninism.


So I guess you fill your tummy on donut holes? As we keep repeating countless times, there is no ideology of atheism because atheism is nothing.

As for environmentalism. You can always say environmentalism is based on atheism because if there is no god there will be no second coming and we have to take care of the planet ourselves. I realize that you personally do not put much (if any) stock on the second coming. However, large enough proportions of powerful Christians believe strongly enough in the Second Coming of Christ to impact environmentalism and other politics. Your pretending that Christianity isn't this way because you or your church isn't does not change the global situation.

As for communism being atheist. Harvey, how do you defend that claim? Communism has been part of the Christian church's life and policies from the beginning. Acts 2:44-45, 4:32, Acts 5:1-10. The monasteries and nunneries for the last thousand years or so were communes. Other communes have been set up in various times and places by various Christian groups, as well as other religions, throughout the past two thousand years, and possibly earlier. To this day, the Hutterites live in communes.

It is true that in the last two centuries communism has been tried on the national level with varying success. Please be aware that Lenin did NOT follow the model set out by Karl Marx and Friedrich Engles. Also be aware that the murders committed by his successor Stalin had nothing to do with atheism or communism; they had much to do with a seriously insecure, superstitious, and power-hungry man.

As for atheism/theism impacting politics, let's look at Christianity, capitalism, and the welfare state. The strongest capitalist industrialized country in the world today is the United States. The US is also the world's most Christian country in terms of how many people go to church and/or identify as Christian.

(I will accept no argument as to who is a "True Christian." If Stalin, Hitler, and Pol Pot represent me, then George W. Bush, Winston Churchill, Dwight Eisenhower, the Crusade War Lords, Popes, and Bishops, The War Lords, Popes, Bishops and preachers of the Thirty Years War (one of Europe's most destructive wars ever and started largely over religion), and the Emperor Constantine, successors and generals represent you.)

The welfare state is such things as big government, socialized medicine, and other stuff that makes for reasonable survival for the ill, the disabled, the aged, and the very young. Infant mortality rate is a common way used to measure the quality of a country's healthcare system, and quality of life in general. The United States ranks far lower than most industrialized countries on infant mortality rate. I can't find it right now, but some time ago I studied a website of World Health Organization, or something official like that. Apparently, capitalism plus Christianity make for baby killing. (This is full term babies.)

The welfare state brought about in other parts of the world was due mainly to the very liberal Christians or non-religious citizens. This is all the way from ending slavery, to making education available to the public, to legalizing abortion, and instituting gay marriage.

Remember, the Bible not only condones slavery but lays out exactly how the institution should be operated, from the slave's child to the divine right of kings. The first country to build its constitution on democracy and renounce the divine right of kings, or monarchy, today allows capitalist Christians to rule supreme blessed by their prosperity gospel and oil. Tell me there's something not right with this picture.

__________________
It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. –Carl Sagan, Demon-Haunted World, p. 12
rsmartin
Registered: 07/09/08
Posts: 2,475

    05/12/09 at 07:07 PMReply with quote#15

Quote:
Originally Posted by harvey1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Papadot
Atheism simply means you have no positive belief in the object of theist belief, which should be self-explanatory. . .‘strong atheism’ i.e. actual denial of the existence of a particular god or ‘god-model’. 


This is not correct. Atheism is understood within philosophy as the outright denial of God's existence.


Finally, I looked up your link to Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy and I see you are seriously mistaken with your definition. Here is the opening paragraph of the article:

Quote:

The main purpose of this article is to explore the differences between atheism and agnosticism, and the relations between them. The task is made more difficult because each of these words are what Wittgenstein called ‘family resemblance’ words. That is, we cannot expect to find a set of necessary and sufficient conditions  for their use. Their use is appropriate if a fair number of the conditions are satisfied. Moreover even particular members of the families are often imprecise, and sometimes almost completely obscure. Sometimes a person who is really an atheist may describe herself, even passionately, as an agnostic because of unreasonable generalised philosophical scepticism which would preclude us from saying that we know anything whatever except perhaps the truths of mathematics and formal logic.

  1. The opening paragraph, which is the overview, tells us that the purpose of this article is to "explore"; thus, definition is not its purpose.
  2. The opening paragraph tells us that the purpose is the differences between atheism and agnosticism; thus a definition of atheism is not the aim of this article. 
As you can see, it states very clearly that we do not agree among ourselves on the meaning of atheist vs. agnostic. Obviously, there is no cut-and-dried definition of either word or we would agree. If we can't agree among ourselves, how in the world do you think we will accept what some Christian dictates?

Harvey, if you really want to know what atheism is (for whatever reason), you will look at authors whose purpose it is to define atheism. You will also listen to what the atheists themselves say that they believe.

__________________
It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. –Carl Sagan, Demon-Haunted World, p. 12
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