| strader2007 |
| Posted 07/19/11 at 03:51 AM | Reply with quote #1 |
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Hey everyone, I was wanting to discuss about what Christians have to look forward to specifically as far as not only after their deaths but during and after all the end time events go on. From what I've seen there is a ton of confusion as far as what is going to happen in what order. I'm going to give you all a few lists, some coming from what I've learned in church before my "apologetics days" and lists that I've heard and taken into account during these last few years of studying apologetics and theology.
Ok now then, when I was much smaller while listening in church the pastor appeared to give this kind of run down for the Christian's future...
1. Current age (people are being born and dying, living out their lives and either accepting or rejecting the gospel as well as hearing or not hearing the gospel)
2. The "rapture" of the church/ all dead believers are either made alive again and awaken from the sleep of death or just their bodies/or remains rise upward to be "connected" again with their souls which are in heaven/temporal heaven/Abraham's bosom as well as the Christians who are alive at this time will rise upward or will just disappear and have their physical bodies changed and meet up with the previously dead believers or the bodies of the dead believers.
3. The antichrist comes to power to govern the people remaining on the earth, claims to be God and sits up a one world government and religion.
4. Some countries, and groups of people (along with Israel) rebels and go against the Antichrist and Armageddon breaks out
5. God along with all of the believers and angels accompanying Him show up in the sky and defeat the antichrist and his followers and God locks Satan up in a supernatural hellish dungeon for the millennial reign.
6. The millennial reign of Christ begins where God rules on the earth in Jerusalem with his followers for a thousand years (during this time new people are born and some even die but not near as much as previous, also people are still given the choice to either accept or reject Christ).
7. After the thousand years Satan comes back trying one last time to mess up God's plans and take some more people away from God's fold and then God takes Satan and throws him into the pits of hell along with all of the lost people where they stay there for eternity.
8. Finally the new heavens and new earth are fully finished and God and all of his followers embark on enjoying eternity, each other, and doing wonderful "fun projects" or who knows what for all eternity and we all either live in heaven only, the new earth only or we can pick and choose or go back and forth?????
*somewhere between numbers 2 and 8 believers are given the rewards for faithful service, persecution,living a virtuous life and so on) and I guess around numbers 7 and 8 the lost are given what amount of eternal punishment they will endure before living it out in hell*
Now this is what I took to be the most true and biblical model before I dove deeper into apologetics and more specifically theology.
Since then, from becoming aware of views like amillennial, premillennial, as well as the lack of data supporting the idea of the rapture along with the more deeper thing I'm currently struggling with (that being deciding between the views of substance dualism and non reductive physicalism regarding the human soul) because if non reductive physicalism holds to be true which I've recently seen some rather compelling material from a biblical standpoint in which if the ancient Hebrew works out just right, the ancient word for soul just simply ment human or person (which means we do not have souls but are a soul).
Thus if this view is right then that could shake of the whole list but thankfully salvages our hopes for an afterlife.
As far as I can tell from that view if combined with preterism or partial preterism the list would look something like this
1. World events go on as normal
2. Something causes all humanity to go extict
3. God then resurrects all of the living
4. God then judges the wicked sends them to hell
5. God rewards the believers and they either dewell with God in heaven or God recrates the earth and they along with God dwell on the earth for eternity.
Out of these lists which one appears to have the most biblical evidence for?
Any help I can get on sorting out this confusion will be greatly appreciated.
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| emailestthoume |
| Posted 07/20/11 at 02:19 AM | Reply with quote #2 |
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| The 1-8 list seems like a lot of speculation, though I know there are a lot of people who think they can get into that detail. There is so much debate about the book of Revelation, and its such a confusing book, that I feel like there is no way to tell about those specifics. One debate is whether the "Israel" mentioned is symbolic or literal. I think it would be wise only to conclude that there will be an end where God will judge every and remake the world, and that there will be an antichrist and things like that. Other details I am very cautious about affirming. |
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| Corioa |
| Posted 11/12/11 at 01:50 AM | Reply with quote #3 |
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| What I'm going to write is entirely from my mouth and is what I've gathered over the last two years. It is not given through the lens of theological schooling.
The Revelation of Jesus Christ has been happening since it was given. bibleortradition/youtube will blow your mind on this. In fact, bible scholars of the 1800s seemed more attuned to the reality of our last days. We are accordingly between the 6th and 7th vial. ------------- The immortality of the soul is a pagan doctrine to be avoided. We are our soul. When we die we sleep. Then one holy set is resurrected for Christ's millennial rule. The second set are those who must have their lives gone through to see if Christ was directly/indirectly their Lord, based on their actions. So presumably those who heard not the Word in their lives.
According to Enoch, angels were given souls that are immortal. This is why there are demons for Christ to send out of people. These are the physically dead giants of Genesis. The devils, on the other hand (and according to rabbis), are the fallen angels. Demons, devils: different. Both immortal. Why Satan will burn for ever and ever. But recall that Jesus and John the Baptist say there is a great burning pit and those who are unworthy are like gathered weeds? This is because the human soul is not immortal unless God gives it life. Every human comes into existence at some point. They are not created at the beginning like the angels were. So also, every human that is self-elected out of the plan will be tossed on the pit and burn away. No more. For eternity in hell for a man doesn't make sense, anyway. How bad could their paltry life have been? Although going back to the void so you were and are not I believe is much worse. ---- |
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| emailestthoume |
| Posted 11/12/11 at 12:55 PM | Reply with quote #4 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by CorioaWhat I'm going to write is entirely from my mouth and is what I've gathered over the last two years. It is not given through the lens of theological schooling.
The Revelation of Jesus Christ has been happening since it was given. bibleortradition/youtube will blow your mind on this. In fact, bible scholars of the 1800s seemed more attuned to the reality of our last days. We are accordingly between the 6th and 7th vial.
I don't understand why we are between the 6th and 7th vial. I used to spend a lot of time trying to identify Revelation with events, but it now seems mostly futile to me. When I look at the other vials, I think it takes a lot of loose interpretation to make them fit past events.
Quote: So also, every human that is self-elected out of the plan will be tossed on the pit and burn away. No more. For eternity in hell for a man doesn't make sense, anyway.
I have been doing a project on eternal torment, and these two verses have convinced me it is biblical.
All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world. (Rev 13:8)
“If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, 10he, too, will drink of the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.11And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. (Rev. 14:9)
Quote: How bad could their paltry life have been? Although going back to the void so you were and are not I believe is much worse.
There are two answers to this. This first is Dr. Craig's, which says Hell's doors are locked from the inside. People continue sinning in hell, and refuse to repent forever, which is why they remain in hell.
The second goes something like this,
1. Sins deserve punishment in proportion to the degree of Holiness of the being sinned against 2. All sins are against God 3. God is infinite Holiness 4. Therefore, all sins deserve infinite punishment
I have spent a lot of time trying to interpret Revelation in a similar way that you are, so and i am not judging you for doing so.
Cheers,
Jeff
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| snoochies |
| Posted 11/16/11 at 09:53 PM | Reply with quote #5 |
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My view of revelation has shifted quite abit from the standard view that everything is yet to come to more of a partial preterist view in that most has already happened.
I think the problem was taking revelation too literal and when you read the events of Matthew 24 it really seems that Jesus was speaking to those at that time and for those at that time. Why would Jesus be asked a direct question only to give an answer that will happen sometime in the future thousands of years from then. The answer Jesus gives seems very direct to those who were asking and if I were in that group back then listening to that answer, it seems he was speaking of a time within their timeframe.
Matthew 24 and Revelation talk about the end of an age, not the end of the world and that was fullfilled in 67 - 70 Ad. Israel had been judged, Christians were persecuted and happened within the generation of Jesus as he said. I gurantee you when Christians were being slaughtered and Rome came to destroy Israel, the teachings of Jesus would have been ringing true in my head if I were there at the time.
I'm not well versed on the whole history of what happened but when I start to understand a little about Apocolyptic literature and tie it in with events that happened back then, it makes alot more sense than the current left behind scenario. But I admit there is ALOT I don't know and won't proclaim I know the truth but am trying to grasp a better understanding.
The language spoken in Revelation would obviously have been easy for a first century Christian or Jew to understand, I think we try and use a 21st interpretation of it though. Kinda like if someone finds a note in 2000 years from now saying my uncle kicked the bucket, there might be a debate onwhat colour the bucket is. 
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| Jnwaco |
| Posted 11/17/11 at 03:01 PM | Reply with quote #6 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by snoochiesMy view of revelation has shifted quite abit from the standard view that everything is yet to come to more of a partial preterist view in that most has already happened. I think the problem was taking revelation too literal and when you read the events of Matthew 24 it really seems that Jesus was speaking to those at that time and for those at that time. Why would Jesus be asked a direct question only to give an answer that will happen sometime in the future thousands of years from then. The answer Jesus gives seems very direct to those who were asking and if I were in that group back then listening to that answer, it seems he was speaking of a time within their timeframe. Matthew 24 and Revelation talk about the end of an age, not the end of the world and that was fullfilled in 67 - 70 Ad. Israel had been judged, Christians were persecuted and happened within the generation of Jesus as he said. I gurantee you when Christians were being slaughtered and Rome came to destroy Israel, the teachings of Jesus would have been ringing true in my head if I were there at the time. I'm not well versed on the whole history of what happened but when I start to understand a little about Apocolyptic literature and tie it in with events that happened back then, it makes alot more sense than the current left behind scenario. But I admit there is ALOT I don't know and won't proclaim I know the truth but am trying to grasp a better understanding. The language spoken in Revelation would obviously have been easy for a first century Christian or Jew to understand, I think we try and use a 21st interpretation of it though. Kinda like if someone finds a note in 2000 years from now saying my uncle kicked the bucket, there might be a debate onwhat colour the bucket is.
That pretty much parallels my thoughts as well. There's a good lecture series on Revelation by R.C. Sproul available at his web site (it does cost a few bucks to buy). I've had to listen to it a few times to catch it all, but he thinks along these lines as well. He also acknowledges that his view is "the minority report", so to speak. I'm not sure, but I'm guessing his view would be along the partial preterist lines? He thinks 666 refers to Nero Caesar, for example.
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| snoochies |
| Posted 11/17/11 at 04:39 PM | Reply with quote #7 |
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Yeah his name does apparently resemble 666 and he certainly did slaughter Christians of the time, and fits in line with the number of kings spoken of in revelation.
I think the contention is that most people think Revelation was written about 90ad putting it after these events so if that's true it muddles it up. But yeah, until you really have a look at it it really opens your mind and I feel alot more comfortable believing in a historical revelation as so much lines up when taking the literature into context.
But yeah, bring up a partial preterist view and some Christians want to banish you to hell for even thinking it. I'm not saying I'm right but the evidence points more toward a historical context without having to twist the meaning of events.
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| Jnwaco |
| Posted 11/17/11 at 05:52 PM | Reply with quote #8 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by snoochies
Yeah his name does apparently resemble 666 and he certainly did slaughter Christians of the time, and fits in line with the number of kings spoken of in revelation.
I think the contention is that most people think Revelation was written about 90ad putting it after these events so if that's true it muddles it up. But yeah, until you really have a look at it it really opens your mind and I feel alot more comfortable believing in a historical revelation as so much lines up when taking the literature into context.
But yeah, bring up a partial preterist view and some Christians want to banish you to hell for even thinking it. I'm not saying I'm right but the evidence points more toward a historical context without having to twist the meaning of events.
Sproul makes something of a case for dating Revelation prior to A.D. 70. First, and least compelling is that John is given a measuring rod and told to measure the temple. If it had been destroyed already, that might not have made much sense.
More convincingly is the listing of seven kings in Rev. 17:10; five have fallen, one is, and one is to come, but the seventh must reign for a short period of time (paraphrased).
Starting with Julius Caesar or Augustus or even Tiberius would place the sixth king (reigning while John was writing) as either Galba, Otho, or Vitellius, all of whom reigned prior to A.D. 70 and all of whom reigned a short period of time.
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