jeffr
Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 54
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| | 04/19/09 at 05:20 PM | Reply with quote | #16 |
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Not sure what the humanist manifesto's like, but making a poetic speech about the worth of human beings would be fine. The atheist manifesto you linked is somewhat provocative, lines that outright criticize others, like "It is a question of Progress or the Dark Ages." serve no other purpose but to hurt feelings and specifically target other beliefs. In fact, most of that manifesto is criticisms of Christianity, and doesn't fit the attempt at kindness that most public prayers have (at least from what I've experienced). This attempt at kindness and not putting other beliefs down is what I mean by respect.
As for religious prayers, reading the Lord's prayer or the beatitudes doesn't specifically go out targeting other religions and telling them they're wrong like that manifesto you linked did, and non-Christians can appreciate them as poetic language about kindness and peace. I can enjoy and appreciate readings from the Quran, I don't think they're God's word, but the poetry and tradition can be pleasant. I hope others would approach public prayers in the same way...
I just don't like the idea of trying to squash religion and tradition from taking part in official ceremonies. I think we can hold to tradition without letting it interfere with actual laws or how the country's run, just like how we recognize the Queen as our traditional figure head, although she really holds no power (of course, you'll never hear "God save the Queen" sung in Quebec). The traditions that come along with religion are a very important aspect to many of Canada's culture, and that's why we shouldn't prevent public prayer.
Jeff
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rsmartin
Registered: 07/09/08
Posts: 2,480
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| | 04/19/09 at 11:18 PM | Reply with quote | #17 |
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Jeff, thanks for explaining. Given that you argue so strongly for Christianity, I will assume for this post that you are of European descent. Now let me explain from another perspective. You suggest that Christian prayer is so loving and kind and inoffensive. Let's look at the Lord's Prayer:
Quote: Our Father who art in heaven...
As you are aware, Jeff, a goodly portion of our Canadian population is Aboriginal. You suggest that tradition is to be valued very highly. Hopefully, you extend this right to the Peoples who tended this great land of ours millenia before "we" were here. I understand that for them, "Father in Heaven" is a seriously alien concept. So is monotheism. However, their grandfathers and ancestors were loving and caring, at least as much so as the "Father in heaven."
I did quite a bit of reading and study on this when I was seeking answers for myself; I took courses and also wrote a paper or two. I lived on two different Indian Reserves one summer and had really deep conversations with the people. Things that Europeans out-lawed two centuries ago only went underground. Some of these people may have totally "Westernized" but definitely not all of them. (Very ironic that the peoples of these western continents have to "westernize" but oh well, it's all a matter of terminology.) Stuff that survives despite overt persecution of this magnitude is real, Jeff. You gotta believe it.
Like I said, the "Father in heaven" is not part of traditional North American religion. Nor was he very compassionate for the peoples on whom he was imposed--most often at gun-point in North and South America and by the edge of the sword in Europe.
The people who do the imposing obviously think otherwise. Evangelicals are notorious for imposing their religion so for you not to think your "Father in heaven" is compassionate would simply be inconsistent with your goals.
You imply that your prayer would not hurt feelings. That's quite a presumption. Or possibly you honestly don't know better. Seems I remember you said in a post somewhere that you have been in Christian schools all your life. You take offense at the suggestion that religion is a throw-back to the Dark Ages. I take offense at your suggestion that I am a sinner, i.e. a bad person.
You telling me that I need to submit to the Lord's Prayer tells me that you consider me a sinner. The Lord's Prayer says, "Forgive us our debts/trespasses as we forgive our debtors/those who trespass against us" or however those lines get translated. Basically, it means "forgive me because I am bad."
Incidentally, I refuse to be offended by something as stupid as the Lord's Prayer but I think my point is made. That line is hugely offensive from a social perspective. You, Jeff, don't know me. You have no basis on which to pronounce me bad or a trespasser of any law, sacred or secular. "Sin" is a religious concept. Few people, religious or otherwise, can define it when pressed.
There's stupid definitions like "falling short of the mark" that mean nothing. Short of what mark? We can always set the mark a bit higher, in case someone is a bit too smart for whoever is doing the controlling. Then it can be lowered for the mildly retarded person whom we also want in the fold or kingdom of heaven. I was told sin means to intentionally do that which we know is wrong.
I have yet to find people--outside evangelical Christians--who do that. And I think on some level even evangelicals think it's right to lie and deceive if it fills pews and the collection plate. However, I was taught so very strongly that lying is wrong that I cannot imagine what it would be like to think it's right to "lie for Jesus." The Bible say "all" liars have their part in the lake that burns with brimstone and fire (Rev. 21:8). And the Ten Commandments forbid to "bear false witness." Lying about any matter, even about Jesus or one's own religious experiences, is "bearing false witness." My conscience tells me there is nothing more repulsive or evil than bearing false witness or lying about sacred matters. It is for this that I suffered--and continue to suffer--much persecution from religious people.
Back on topic. So you think your religion is kind and loving. No, not at all, not at all. Neither in real life nor on these forums. Your religion is one of persecution for all who disagree--it is ridicule and arrogance and oppression for all who dare disagree. It begins in the Bible with the biblical text and instruction.
So you think it's quite okay to offend all atheists, agnostics, Muslims, Hindus, Taoists, Jews, Siekhs, and whoever else immigrated to Canada in the last four or five centuries, along with the peoples whose ancestors have lived here since time immemorial with a prayer that paints us evil with one repitition. But for us to suggest that Christianity is a throw-back to the Dark Ages, when in literal fact that is what it is, is not acceptable? There is zero evidence for your god. The historicity of your Jesus is brought into question. Sin, the central problem for which Christianity exists to solve, is an indefinite concept. I would appreciate if you would explain on what grounds you consider your position tenable.
__________________
It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. –Carl Sagan, Demon-Haunted World, p. 12 |
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jeffr
Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 54
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| | 04/20/09 at 01:28 AM | Reply with quote | #18 |
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Thank you for your response Rsmartin,
First of all, the weight of what I'm trying to say isn't based on the validity of a particular religion, rather the traditions and sense of history that is so deeply tied with many of these passages used in public prayers, and they need not be Christian. As I stated, if a prayer was based off of something from the Quran, that's fine, I just won't pray along as I would a Christian praying.
As for honouring our first nations peoples, I've seen ceremonies on television where natives give a blessing to politicians or where they sing a prayer. This bothered me very little, and it was interesting getting to witness a part of their culture. I have very limited exposure to first nations' religions, but from what I understand they share a basic concept of a creator who oversees his creation, so I'm not sure a concept of a heavenly father would be too foreign to them. Perhaps if I meet someone one day they'd explain. I also have no doubt that other aspect of their religion are alive and well.
I should also mention that I'm well aware of the atrocities that happened to the natives, for example the first use of biological weapons by giving them smallpox infested blankets. Worst of all wasn't the warfare, but the residential schools that harmed so many of their children (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_residential_school_system). There's no excuse for it.
Quote: “You imply that your prayer would not hurt feelings. That's quite a presumption. Or possibly you honestly don't know better. Seems I remember you said in a post somewhere that you have been in Christian schools all your life. You take offense at the suggestion that religion is a throw-back to the Dark Ages. I take offense at your suggestion that I am a sinner, i.e. a bad person.”
I’m saying that the atheist manifesto you provided only serves in criticizing Christianity, and specifically criticizing other‘s beliefs wouldn‘t make a very well-received public prayer. The Father’s prayer makes no comparably outright offensive statements such as “you’re a sinner and you’re going to burn in hell”, if it did, I wouldn’t expect anyone to use it in a public prayer. Likewise, I see very little reason that someone should be offended at the actual content of the beatitudes other than for a general distaste of all things Christian. If they focused on the actual content of the passage, they would easily see it’s about peacemaking, mercy, enduring persecution and hardship, meekness, etc. Aren’t these traits that you would want to encourage in our multicultural society? If any offense of being called a sinner is to be found, it most certainly doesn’t originate in these passages, it originates in already held disdain of Christianity. And in that case, the offense has already occurred before anyone has even uttered a prayer.
As for the Father’s prayer specifically, yes certain Christians impose their beliefs on others, but their actions don’t effect the content of the Lord’s prayer whatsoever. “Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us” is by no means a call to conquer and force our faith on others, it’s a call to be forgiving to one another. It doesn’t necessarily have to condemn you as a sinner either, most people would admit to having to apologize at least a few times in their life.
I also would not expect anyone to “submit” to the prayer as if it had any sort of legal bearing on them, it can be easily appreciated by others as a form of poetry, especially since it’s most often quoted in the King James version. Like I’ve said, a public prayer is an opportunity for a certain culture to share a part of their tradition with others, it doesn’t demand someone to convert or even to pay attention. The hostility that you seem to be attaching to it is separate and pertains to Christians themselves, not to the verses used here.
Quote: “I refuse to be offended by something as stupid as the Lord's Prayer”
Belittling others’ ways is exactly what I’m trying to take a stance against here.
“Back on topic. So you think your religion is kind and loving. No, not at all, not at all. Neither in real life nor on these forums. Your religion is one of persecution for all who disagree--it is ridicule and arrogance and oppression for all who dare disagree. It begins in the Bible with the biblical text and instruction.”
I think the typical verses that are used in Christian public prayers are kind and loving, and that’s why they’re appropriate to be used. The actual practice of Christians isn’t a part of my argument as it often doesn’t reflect the “meekness” that is emphasized in these scriptures. The public doesn’t have to interpret the prayer as a command, rather they can appreciate it as a proverb.
Quote: “So you think it's quite okay to offend all atheists, agnostics, Muslims, Hindus, Taoists, Jews, Siekhs, and whoever else immigrated to Canada in the last four or five centuries, along with the peoples whose ancestors have lived here since time immemorial with a prayer that paints us evil with one repetition”
A difference in beliefs doesn’t have to equal offense. When I was in the hospital, I was touched that the man in the next bed’s daughter had prayed for me at her temple. I don’t agree with her beliefs, but I was grateful for her concern for me and attempt at going the extra mile to do something that she believed would help me. THAT is what Canada’s multiculturalism should be about, caring for and respecting each other regardless of belief, not because of belief. This woman demonstrated this to me in the way that was most meaningful to her, and I wasn’t offended one bit. This is how I envision public prayer, the understanding and acceptance of others’ traditions and allowing others to sensitively share them without needing to remove them from public ceremonies.
Sorry for the late response, I'm enjoying my new found freedom (finished my last exam last night, woot!)
Jeff
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rsmartin
Registered: 07/09/08
Posts: 2,480
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| | 04/21/09 at 12:54 AM | Reply with quote | #19 |
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I read your post down to where you accuse me of hostility where none existed up to that point. The parts I read make it impossibly obvious that you haven't a clue how xian fundies come across to others, nor have you any intention ever to find out. That is called wilfull ignorance. It is a major evil. You use yourself as a measuring stick by which to judge all other humans. That is intolerably arrogant. But it's me who is belittling of others. Yeah right. The Christian is never at fault. Never.
PS Don't expect me to continue this conversation. I may depending how I feel, but I make no promises.
__________________
It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. –Carl Sagan, Demon-Haunted World, p. 12 |
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