mrcaron
Registered: 04/02/09
Posts: 1
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| | 04/02/09 at 04:43 PM | Reply with quote | #1 |
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Dr. Craig makes some claims during his conversation on Muslim Apologetics, found on his podcast archive at (http://www.rfmedia.org/RF_audio_video/RF_podcast/Muslim_Apologetics) which bring up questionable scholarship when I was talking with a friend of mine. My friend, a student at Luther Seminary, who has pursued Arabic studies for a few years now, and who has lived both in Ethiopia and Syria as part of these studies, raises the following issues. I'd like to get further input.
First, he claims that Dr. Craig is arguing from a Western perspective - 2 natures is not accepted in Syria, Egypt, Ethiopia... The problem is that the Muslims encountered 1 nature Christians before the 2 nature ones.
Second, he [my friend] says that no Muslim claims that Muhammad wrote the Qur'an. He spoke it out and they wrote it out later.
Third, he thinks that the claim that 20% of the Qur'an is
unintelligible is poppycock. (can anyone provide some reference for where Dr. Craig obtains this information?)
Fourthly, some of my friend's respect for Dr. Craig's islamic scholarship is lost because of he pronounces Muhammad wrong - dry guttural h, not wet kh; and pronounces Qur'an pretty poorly as well. It would seem that someone well versed in the Qur'an would learn to respectfully pronounce it?
That was some feedback I received from him and I wonder if anyone out there (incl. Dr. Craig himself) has any response?
Respectfully,
Mike
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parklife
Registered: 04/17/08
Posts: 643
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| | 04/02/09 at 05:15 PM | Reply with quote | #2 |
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Quote: Second, he [my friend] says that no Muslim claims that Muhammad wrote the Qur'an. He spoke it out and they wrote it out later.
If your friend refers to the podcast, he should listen more carefully.
Quote: Third, he thinks that the claim that 20% of the Qur'an is
unintelligible is poppycock. (can anyone provide some reference for where Dr. Craig obtains this information?)
Listen to the podcast; Craig gives the source.
Quote: Fourthly, some of my friend's respect for Dr. Craig's islamic scholarship is lost because of he pronounces Muhammad wrong
Petty criticism.
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I can sum it all up in three words: Evolution is a lie. |
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rsmartin
Registered: 07/09/08
Posts: 2,480
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| | 04/02/09 at 08:10 PM | Reply with quote | #3 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by mrcaron
Dr. Craig makes some claims during his conversation on Muslim Apologetics, found on his podcast archive at (http://www.rfmedia.org/RF_audio_video/RF_podcast/Muslim_Apologetics) which bring up questionable scholarship when I was talking with a friend of mine. My friend, a student at Luther Seminary, who has pursued Arabic studies for a few years now, and who has lived both in Ethiopia and Syria as part of these studies, raises the following issues. I'd like to get further input.
First, he claims that Dr. Craig is arguing from a Western perspective - 2 natures is not accepted in Syria, Egypt, Ethiopia... The problem is that the Muslims encountered 1 nature Christians before the 2 nature ones.
The part that I high-lighted is historically correct, according to "Eastern Christendom," by Kallistos Ware, pp 123-162 in The Oxford Illustrated History of Christianity, edited by John McManners, 2001. Most of the Christians on these forums are descendents of the Western or Latin Church, and generally reject these Eastern communities as heretics. Craig is a Western or Latin Christian.
Quote: Second, he [my friend] says that no Muslim claims that Muhammad wrote the Qur'an. He spoke it out and they wrote it out later.
I listened to the video. I agree with the beginning in which the speaker says many people learn about Islam only from its enemies. However, I think some Muslims are like some Christians in that they see enemies where none exist. That being as it may, most of what I know about Islam comes from nonMuslims and--from the perspective of some Muslims--from its enemies.
Quote: Third, he thinks that the claim that 20% of the Qur'an is
unintelligible is poppycock. (can anyone provide some reference for where Dr. Craig obtains this information?)
I can't. However, would Craig consider himself obliged to do more than read it for himself in English and come to his own conclusions? I don't know; I'm asking.
Quote: Fourthly, some of my friend's respect for Dr. Craig's islamic scholarship is lost because of he pronounces Muhammad wrong - dry guttural h, not wet kh; and pronounces Qur'an pretty poorly as well. It would seem that someone well versed in the Qur'an would learn to respectfully pronounce it?
One would think a scholar who is truly interested in the religion on a level where he is qualified to make critical statements on the rightness or wrongness of the beliefs he would learn to correctly pronounce the name of the sacred text. Either that, or apologize for being unable to do so.
This is especially the case, given the great importance Islam gives to the spoken word of the sacred text despite being unable to understand it. I understand that one of the first things devoute Muslims teach their little children is to memorize the Quran in Arabic. Understanding it is not what matters, but being able to recite the text correctly from beginning to end.
Christianity does not have this aspect of absolute reverence for the spoken word that Islam does. Craig fails to acknowledge this. I agree that this is a serious breach of scholarship.
Quote: That was some feedback I received from him and I wonder if anyone out there (incl. Dr. Craig himself) has any response?
Dr. Craig does not, to my knowledge, reply on these lowly forums. Sorry, but the man lost my respect long ago with his shoddy scholarship. I, too, came here with a question for him to clear his name. He has not yet done so. His fans ridicule me for having the question. So be it. Our world turns in part on sound scholarship the likes of which your friend expects.
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It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. –Carl Sagan, Demon-Haunted World, p. 12 |
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rsmartin
Registered: 07/09/08
Posts: 2,480
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| | 04/02/09 at 08:53 PM | Reply with quote | #4 |
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I'm still listening to the video. I find WLC's criticism of the Qur'an outright offensive. He speaks as though he himself were the final word of authority on the origins of the Quran. He's not. Not even close. What he is doing is trampling someone else's pearls in the dunghill.
Craig reads a verse in the Quran about God commanding people to worship him and Mary. He says any Christian would reject such a doctrine. I'm sorry, but that is an outright lie. If God exists, then so does the Virgin Mary and the Catholic Church has revered her as supernatural since early times.
The other person (I don't know his name) told about how he was treated in a Muslim chatroom. It was awful but he knew going in that he wasn't wanted, and the Muslims made their points graphically so that I understand them better than ever. If he had gone into an atheist chatroom where it was specified that Christians were not wanted he would have been treated the same way though with other verses.
Conservative Christians treat all other religions and atheists exactly like that every day of the week: Witness how he blasphemed the Quran. And then they ask why we reject their "love."
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It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. –Carl Sagan, Demon-Haunted World, p. 12 |
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john
Registered: 12/03/07
Posts: 1,691
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| | 04/02/09 at 11:54 PM | Reply with quote | #5 |
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Quote:
Quote: Fourthly, some of my friend's respect for Dr. Craig's islamic scholarship is lost because of he pronounces Muhammad wrong
Petty criticism.
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Petty or not petty Hatsoff, it's highly indicative of the parochial attitude which as we all know from the demographics of religion is a real hindrance to getting anywhere useful like a balanced view.
Either that or he thought his audience so parochial they'd burn him at the stake if he made the correct sound.
Either way it ain't great.
John
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jeffr
Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 54
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| | 04/03/09 at 06:11 PM | Reply with quote | #6 |
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My internet's not working very well at the moment so I can't look up any instances of Craig saying Mohammad, however if my memory is correct (and from what the OP has described), let me attempt to explain what Craig might be doing.
The voiceless pharyngeal fricative (the h-like sound in the Arabic pronunciation of Mohammad) is difficult for English speakers because it isn't one of English phonemes, the closest sound we have to it is the voiceless glottal fricative (regular h).
I would suspect that if Craig was making no attempt at properly pronouncing the sound, he'd use this voiceless glottal fricative (regular english h). However, from what the OP describes, Craig is actually using a voiceless uvular fricative ("kh" sound). To me, this actually shows that Craig is attempting to make the correct sound, but misses the mark because to the English speaker's ear, the two segments sound almost identical.
Have I lost you? Lol. Then let me give you an example from my personal experience with Arabic. While I was in Israel, my friends tried to teach me many words, one of which was the greeting "Marhaba". The h in this case is the same sound as that in Mohammad. My friends told me that I, and every other English speaker they knew, would mistake the "h" sound for a "kh" (the "wet" h the OP describes, the same sound Craig uses in Mohammed's name). It took me personally around a year to finally get the correct sound.
(If anyone's interested in saying it properly, try this! Say "aahhhhh" as if you had just drunk a refreshing glass of water. Then try comparing it to the h in "hello". There should be a slight, yet noticeable difference)
Long story short: Craig IS putting effort into pronounce it properly by pronouncing it "kh" instead of English' "h", however he fails at it as most english speakers would.
I don't really have anything else to say about the other points, just felt I'd share what I knew!
Jeff
ps. <- Linguistics major, sorry for turning into uber nerd  .
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rsmartin
Registered: 07/09/08
Posts: 2,480
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| | 04/03/09 at 07:38 PM | Reply with quote | #7 |
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Jeff, those linguistic differences are what I understand this thread to be about. Since Craig is unable to correctly pronounce these very important and sacred words of Islam, for the reasons I explained above, he should acknowledge his limitations and apologize for them. He should explain that as an English-speaking person, this is how he will have to pronounce these words, but that he does so with apology. Most humans accept such humility on the part of outsiders. In my experience, Muslims are regular humans who can be expected to respond to this kind of negotiation.
Craig fails to make such acknowledgment and tries to smooth over the linguistic deficiencies, pretending they did not exist. You defend him as though Muslims should accept the offense. Christians most certainly wouldn't if the tables were turned.
What the OP does not even mention is the supreme blasphemy Craig performs with his pretense at being an authority of the Quran and the Muslim religion. Christians cannot tolerate anybody who disagrees with them, much less drags their bible and jesus in the manure. Yet that is what he does to the Muslims.
I think the OP shows extra-ordinary restraint.
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It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. –Carl Sagan, Demon-Haunted World, p. 12 |
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jeffr
Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 54
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| | 04/03/09 at 10:04 PM | Reply with quote | #8 |
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Rsmartin wrote:
Quote: Since Craig is unable to correctly pronounce these very important and sacred words of Islam, for the reasons I explained above, he should acknowledge his limitations and apologize for them
I understand what you're saying, but my point was that he most likely thinks that he is pronouncing it correctly, and therefore is at least attempting to demonstrate some sort of respect to Muslims. My reason for thinking this is that instead of just saying "Mohammad" like any English speaker would say the names "Henry" or "Harold" (with that h sound), he makes the point of using the non-English sound [χ] which an English speaker has an extremely hard time contrasting with [ħ], the sound in Mohammad's name. The difference between an uvular and pharyngeal place of articulation is not contrastive in English phonology, as it is in Arabic, and therefore it's completely possible for the English speaker to not even perceive a difference between the two. How can Dr. Craig apologize for mistaking a sound he isn't even aware of?
Quote: Craig fails to make such acknowledgment and tries to smooth over the linguistic deficiencies, pretending they did not exist.
See the end of the above paragraph. He doesn't have to pretend, his ears are tuned to English (maybe French and German as well), and unless someone sat down and specifically emphasized the difference between the proper sound and his sound, it's likely he would never even notice a difference. This has nothing to do with being ignorant about Islam, it's just how the brain handles foreign sounds.
Quote: You defend him as though Muslims should accept the offense.
I would defend ANYONE if they were disliked due to their accent (after all, this is a case of Dr. Craig having an accent when saying Arabic sounds).
I'm not aware than anyone has corrected him on his pronunciation, and perhaps even if someone has, it's entirely understandable for a non-native speaker of Arabic to be unable to correct the mistake. Take Jean Chrétien for example, even as Prime Minister of Canada for 10 years, he was still never able to pronounce "th" properly, it always ended up as "d". This was even after years of lessons and practice specifically targeting that sound.
I wonder if anyone has sat down with Dr. Craig and attempted to give him better training on how to make the sound properly. It's an extremely difficult sound for an English speaker to make, especially during rapid speech where you tend to lessen your control of articulation. It's also unfair to assume Dr. Craig wouldn't apologize for his trouble in pronouncing the h if he was aware of it, and maybe he simply hasn't been told that his mispronunciation is offensive to some (or maybe most Arabs realize it's a hard sound to make and forgive him for making such a trivial error). You're also assuming Dr. Craig is aware of his error, which could easily not be the case.
I'd also like to point out that mispronouncing Mohammad's name doesn't make what Dr. Craig has to say wrong, neither does pronouncing it correctly make what he has to say more trustworthy. This is a trivial matter, and to be blunt, people shouldn't be offended by mispronunciations like this. Does it bother me that "Jesus" is pronounced differently in French or Arabic? Hardly. Plus, as an English speaker living in Vancouver, I go every day of my life hearing my native language's sounds "mispronounced", and it's actually something I enjoy hearing.
For interest's sake, if any of you would like to view the IPA chart that categorizes all these sounds, this is a pretty good website: http://www.yorku.ca/earmstro/ipa/index.html
You can listen to the sounds themselves and see if you can hear a difference. You could even try saying them out-loud  .
Jeff
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john
Registered: 12/03/07
Posts: 1,691
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| | 04/03/09 at 11:18 PM | Reply with quote | #9 |
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Quote: Quote:
Quote: Fourthly, some of my friend's respect for Dr. Craig's islamic scholarship is lost because of he pronounces Muhammad wrong
Petty criticism.
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Petty or not petty Hatsoff, it's highly indicative of the parochial attitude which as we all know from the demographics of religion is a real hindrance to getting anywhere useful like a balanced view.
Either that or he thought his audience so parochial they'd burn him at the stake if he made the correct sound.
Either way it ain't great.
John
Well I actually listened to half the talk (something I don't normally do now as I have lost interest in what WLC says outside of a debunking scenario) and I take back the above which I based on the opening posters comments as he sounded very "reasonable".
Craig did indeed make an effort at correct pronunciation of Mohammed the first time he said it, and even though he didn't keep it up, that's enough for me.
I would have listened to more, but when I got to the first course about a tripersonal being, with Craig thoughtful sounding, slow for emphasis in places, sounding very authoritative as is his wont, my eyes glazed over, my ears just hearing lips flapping. A shame as I find his manner very engaging and he gives the first impression of being very equanimous.
Before half way, luckily, he got to saying Mohammed so I got to hear the next point about the so-called perfection of the Koran and mentioned the 20% unintelligible.
What struck me was that Craig very quickly said that this surely
"evacuates the argument that the Koran was written by Mohammed as having any persuasive power".
Using the same criteria with the Bible I wonder on what grounds the extraordinary inconsistencies and lack of clarity therein allows that book to be judged in any better light. The mere existence of so very many branches of Christianity choosing their own particular, often violently disagreeing, interpretations is to me consummate evidence of it's almost blatant imperfection.
cheers John
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Lightfoot
Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 1,989
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| | 04/03/09 at 11:50 PM | Reply with quote | #10 |
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I can understand how certain muslims might feel offended, but some people are just happy that a foreign person is even tyring to sound correct. I know in my travels which have been pretty extensive, I have found that to be the case.
On the other hand, with certain people, we might be more careful For example, Arab's are deeply offended if you showed them the sole of your foot, something I would never do in front of Arab's.
Its hard to get it right all the time. None of us are perfect so we should just accept certain things.
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