john
Registered: 12/03/07
Posts: 1,691
|
| | 12/27/08 at 02:09 PM | Reply with quote | #1 |
|
I, like Parklife, was amazed at the flight of fantasy in the recent Q&A about heaven being so overwhelming.
This week I'm amazed at the last paragraph of the latest offering when someone asks why he should be culpable if he simply finds himself unable to believe:Quote: My view is that, ultimately speaking, there is no such thing as non-culpable unbelief. For, first, there is good evidence for theism which is readily accessible to all, such as I share in Reasonable Faith (3rd ed.), and no comparably good argument for atheism. I’d invite you to listen to some of my debates with leading non-believers and just ask yourself objectively, Where does the evidence point? Second, and more importantly, God has not abandoned us to work out by our own ingenuity and cleverness whether or not He exists. Rather His Holy Spirit speaks to the heart of every man, convicting him of sin and drawing him to God. If our hearts are disposed to seek God, then He will be found by us. This may take time. That’s why I said that ultimately speaking unbelief is culpable. By the time a person dies, he will have had sufficient opportunity to respond to God’s Spirit and be saved. God’s bringing you to this website to have your question addressed and, I hope, cleared up, is one step in the process. The question now is, where is your heart? Do you want to know God, if He exists? What concrete steps are you taking to seek Him?
It's so appallingly jawdropping in it's crass unpersuasiveness I hesitate to comment. Perhaps someone else would like to....
cheers John
|
| Loading... | |
eric
Registered: 12/03/07
Posts: 4,158
|
| | 12/27/08 at 02:59 PM | Reply with quote | #2 |
|
I think the key statement is this one. Quote: The question now is, where is your heart? Do you want to know God, if He exists? What concrete steps are you taking to seek Him?
When I was an unbeliever, I was acting on a choice to live as if God was a fictional character even though I knew that it was possible that my choice to do so may have been counter to reality. It was a willfully chosen position, and I knew that.
You, John, have done far more research into reasons for belief than I had done during those years and yet you remain steadfast in your unbelief, when said reasons have convinced many reasonable atheists to drop their atheism. You've also studied the case for the resurrection, which has convinced many reasonable skeptics, but you remain an unbeliever. I'm not sure what goes on in your soul over the God question, but God does know. Perhaps WLC should have supplied chapter and verse to back up his statements with their scriptural support. The Bible says clearly that unbelievers suppress the knowledge of the truth of God in unrighteousness. You can deny that to yourself and to us all day long, but in the end, God will pronounce a true judgment upon the nature of your unbelief. This is not something that any of us can 'convince' you of; it is wholly a matter between you and the One who created your soul. Like WLS said, it's all about a heart condition, and like all matters of the heart, rationalization is always something that can be used effectively if you want to continue denying Him who brought you into existence.
__________________
One person with God is a majority.
~ Billy Graham |
| Loading... | |
Snakeystew
Registered: 04/04/08
Posts: 2,756
|
| | 12/27/08 at 05:54 PM | Reply with quote | #3 |
|
Quote: Like WLS said, it's all about a heart condition
With due respect but the heart is a blood pump. What you mean is believing in god is an emotional condition. A person not prone to irrational flights of emotion is unlikely to end up believing in gods, (yours or anyone elses). Of course that doesn't prevent future irrational flights of emotion and so many atheists will end up believers - but none of this has anything to do with individual choice.
One simply cannot possibly choose to believe in an entity. If you assert otherwise we can test it, but it's not needed because you already know you can't. You can squeeze all year long but if you don't believe in something, you don't believe in it.
Now, I don't hear, sense or feel my insides being tickled by gods or magical leprechaun rays. If someone claims that such things happen, one has a lot of work to put in and certainly should not be foolish enough to think that just saying it matter of factly makes it true. That WLC attempts it shows how desparate theists arguments are becoming.[edit] However, let's just for a second accept the claim. Ok, so every atheist on the planet has this 'holy spirit' voice thingymajig speaking to their internal pumping organ. These people have this feeling but doubt it, don't really believe what it is they are in fact feeling. They doubt that this feeling is genuine and then they drop dead.
Where was the crime? Is doubting the origin of an inner feeling a crime now? Is living under the notion that some inner 'voice' [?] is actually just yourself against the universal law? What exactly is the crime here? Is perhaps WLC claiming that all these atheists know that this feeling is a god but that, for reasons that I suppose WLC should get around to explaining, they want to pretend it isn't a god because they... don't want to live forever with their loved ones but instead want to burn forever in a pit of sulphur? If that is WLC's claim, I claim he's smoking pot. Lots of it.
Of course it is infact more pathetic than that. WLC isn't contending that we're unable to understand our own feelings - that we're emotionally inept and he isn't contending that we desire to be smoked, no - far worse, he is calling us all liars - a very serious, (and completely baseless), charge indeed. And what is this based upon but simply the fact that he feels certain things are true and hence everyone else also must.
So us atheists know that a god exists but we lie to ourselves because.. well, I'm unsure why but ok. Not only us atheists either. All muslims know that it is in fact WLC's god that is real but they feel like lying to themselves as well. The same goes for the hindus. Ok, the jews are nearly there but they're just silly enough to believe that circumcision and obeying the sabbath is important and forgot about the third part of the very same god.. or something.
So WLC is in fact calling everyone on the planet that doesn't agree with him a liar. I wonder if WLC would care to explain how he justifies such nonsense.
|
| Loading... | |
john
Registered: 12/03/07
Posts: 1,691
|
| | 12/27/08 at 09:41 PM | Reply with quote | #4 |
|
Thankyou Eric and Snakey for padding out my idleness.
Once again WLC seems to leap from the sophisticated to the crassly simplistic with the ease of a Nureyev.
I would be surprised if WLC doesn't read this forum he started as it's a good source of feedback. So Snakey when you say
Quote: WLC is in fact calling everyone on the planet that doesn't agree with him a liar. I wonder if WLC would care to explain how he justifies such nonsense.
........unless he's under a pseudonym I haven't seen any comments from him yet but we live in hope.
cheers John
ps I noticed WLC letting slip Quote: we desperately need a Savior
......desperate need ehh?.....hmmm.
|
| Loading... | |
eric
Registered: 12/03/07
Posts: 4,158
|
| | 12/27/08 at 11:26 PM | Reply with quote | #5 |
|
I didn't mean to imply that any atheist can become a theist overnight.
I could have remained an atheist, but I could not honestly continue ignoring evidences I kept seeing that there is more to conscious existence than just matter. Also, although the materialistic worldview had certain benefits, it was becoming ever-clearer that it meant that everything that was really important in life, everything that gave life meaning, was just a lie told by biology. More and more I was giving up on the old materialist way of seeing, as I matured. Experiences and anecdotes piled up over time which militated against materialism. The meaning and purpose behind life that they hinted at was outweighing the 'benefits' of materialism, which for me seemed more and more trivial as time went on. I really can't see why any really mature person would cling to atheism. Actually I don't think that maturity and atheism can go together. Materialism is shallow, and empty, and atheism seems adolescent in its 'It's my life, and I'll do what I want' mindset.
__________________
One person with God is a majority.
~ Billy Graham |
| Loading... | |
Lightfoot
Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 1,989
|
| | 12/27/08 at 11:41 PM | Reply with quote | #6 |
|
eric
I agree completely.
I honestly don't believe people reject God because they don't see "evidence". Perhaps, the problem from evil is a problem, but that seems to lead to anger. I think most atheists suppress the truth and like you said there is a maturity issue there and you can clearly see it when engaging them.
They make themselves "dull" and their minds become darkened so that any spiritual idea can't be perceived, much like the Apostle Paul spoke of:
Romans 8
Quote: 7For this reason the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law—indeed it cannot, 8and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9But you are not in the flesh; you are in the Spirit, since the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
I do believe this lack of insight, or spiritual insight starts with a choice they make, with a hatred they have, and that hatred is against God.
The words of Christ are far too powerful to be brushed aside, the words contain authority, just as the crowds back then recognized. I don't believe people when they say they see nothing in the words of Christ. I choose to believe Christ.
I am reminded of these scriptures:
Romans 3:4
Quote: New American Standard Bible (©1995)May it never be! Rather, let God be found true, though every man be found a liar, as it is written, "THAT YOU MAY BE JUSTIFIED IN YOUR WORDS, AND PREVAIL WHEN YOU ARE JUDGED."
In effect, we don't even have to argue the case of God with anyone. His word itself is what justifies itself, and we are reminded that his word is sharper then any two edged sword.
Hebrews 4:12
Quote: New American Standard Bible (©1995)For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
__________________
"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell."
C.S Lewis |
| Loading... | |
eric
Registered: 12/03/07
Posts: 4,158
|
| | 12/27/08 at 11:52 PM | Reply with quote | #7 |
|
Quote: I do believe this lack of insight, or spiritual insight starts with a choice they make, with a hatred they have, and that hatred is against God.
I totally agree but would change that last part to read, "that hatred is against that which they themselves know about God."
Quote: The words of Christ are far too powerful to be brushed aside, the words contain authority
I had always sensed this whenever i found myself encountering quotes from Jesus. But that may be just because i have always been one of 'His sheep,' albeit lost.
__________________
One person with God is a majority.
~ Billy Graham |
| Loading... | |
Pumbelo
Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 424
|
| | 12/28/08 at 08:19 AM | Reply with quote | #8 |
|
This forum is bizarre.
__________________
"Yuri Gagarin admitted on his deathbead that the whole purpose of the Soviet Space Program was to hide the True Cross, Noah's Ark, Schrodinger's Cat and Zuzu's Petals and many other antiquities in a polar orbit, which explains the recent hyperactive aurora. They are all stored in a radiation proof chest, with "Beware of Leopard" stenciled on the lid."
-Spankopeta Press |
| Loading... | |
john
Registered: 12/03/07
Posts: 1,691
|
| | 12/28/08 at 09:04 AM | Reply with quote | #9 |
|
Quote: His word itself is what justifies itself, and we are reminded that his word is sharper then any two edged sword.
Lightfoot whilst I would never recommend filling a post to an unbeliever with Biblical quotes I would just comment that the two edged sword is quite apt as regards the Bible cos you can justify this position........or that one......depending on your particular choice of reality (and there sure is a wide choice).
Quote: This forum is bizarre.
Are you talking about WLC's answer or the Biblical quoting frenzy?
I hope you don't mean Snakey's or my observant and perceptive posts 
cheers John
|
| Loading... | |
Snakeystew
Registered: 04/04/08
Posts: 2,756
|
| | 12/28/08 at 11:15 AM | Reply with quote | #10 |
|
Quote: I could have remained an atheist, but I could not honestly continue ignoring evidences I kept seeing that there is more to conscious existence than just matter.
It is worth noting that whatever 'evidence' you claim to have perceived is of no value to anyone else unless you intend to speak for everyone on the planet - which, like WLC, you seem more than comfortable to attempt.
The fact of the matter is that there is zero evidence (genuine version) for gods, souls, heavens, lives after death, hells, internal messages from space, nephilim, or talking snakes.
Of course you and WLC can believe that certain things are evidence (theist version) of your beliefs, but again that doesn't apply to anyone else.
Quote: ........unless he's under a pseudonym I haven't seen any comments from him yet but we live in hope.
Doubtful it will ever happen. People get used to the safety of articles that can't be directly responded to or debates that are prepared in advance.
Regards,
|
| Loading... | |
eric
Registered: 12/03/07
Posts: 4,158
|
| | 12/28/08 at 11:39 AM | Reply with quote | #11 |
|
Quote: The fact of the matter is that there is zero evidence (genuine version) for gods, souls, heavens, lives after death, hells, internal messages from space, nephilim, or talking snakes.
There are none so blind as those who will not see.
__________________
One person with God is a majority.
~ Billy Graham |
| Loading... | |
rsmartin
Registered: 07/09/08
Posts: 2,480
|
| | 12/28/08 at 07:50 PM | Reply with quote | #12 |
|
Quote: Originally Posted by eric
I didn't mean to imply that any atheist can become a theist overnight.
I could have remained an atheist, but I could not honestly continue ignoring evidences I kept seeing that there is more to conscious existence than just matter. Also, although the materialistic worldview had certain benefits, it was becoming ever-clearer that it meant that everything that was really important in life, everything that gave life meaning, was just a lie told by biology. More and more I was giving up on the old materialist way of seeing, as I matured. Experiences and anecdotes piled up over time which militated against materialism. The meaning and purpose behind life that they hinted at was outweighing the 'benefits' of materialism, which for me seemed more and more trivial as time went on. I really can't see why any really mature person would cling to atheism. Actually I don't think that maturity and atheism can go together. Materialism is shallow, and empty, and atheism seems adolescent in its 'It's my life, and I'll do what I want' mindset.
You make it seem like there are only two options in life: WLC's version of religion vs your version of atheism.
Fortunately, you are very far off-target and life is far, far richer in options than that.
__________________
It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. –Carl Sagan, Demon-Haunted World, p. 12 |
| Loading... | |
rsmartin
Registered: 07/09/08
Posts: 2,480
|
| | 12/28/08 at 08:16 PM | Reply with quote | #13 |
|
Quote: Originally Posted by ericQuote: The fact of the matter is that there is zero evidence (genuine version) for gods, souls, heavens, lives after death, hells, internal messages from space, nephilim, or talking snakes. There are none so blind as those who will not see.
Talking to yourself are you? Thought so.
Post 2 You admit that you did little research. You admit to not understanding the atheist but you refuse to seek understanding; instead you condemn the atheist for not believing as you do. You quote the Bible as though it were of necessity true even though it contradicts what you see before your very eyes, i.e. the behaviour of atheists. You just deny that what you see in atheists really is what it appears to be.
Post 5 You build your beliefs for your soul's eternal salvation on something as vague and effusive and undocumented for authenticity as anecdotes. As stated in my post above, you assume that there are only two options in life: WLC's version of Christianity and the version of atheism you held earlier in your life.
Post 7 applies your personal experience to millions of other people around the globe and across history as though you personally experienced all of their lives and therefore know what they experience, know, and understand.
Truly, none are so blind as those who will not see!
__________________
It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. –Carl Sagan, Demon-Haunted World, p. 12 |
| Loading... | |
saibomb
Registered: 06/02/08
Posts: 877
|
| | 12/28/08 at 08:38 PM | Reply with quote | #14 |
|
I think if you truly are looking for the truth, and seek it with all your heart you will find God.
If you approach it with a bias, like many atheists seem to do, good luck. |
| Loading... | |
rsmartin
Registered: 07/09/08
Posts: 2,480
|
| | 12/28/08 at 08:43 PM | Reply with quote | #15 |
|
Quote: Originally Posted by johnQuote: His word itself is what justifies itself, and we are reminded that his word is sharper then any two edged sword. Lightfoot whilst I would never recommend filling a post to an unbeliever with Biblical quotes I would just comment that the two edged sword is quite apt as regards the Bible cos you can justify this position........or that one......depending on your particular choice of reality (and there sure is a wide choice).
John, I love using the "Sword of the Lord" to defend atheism. It works splendidly. If truth had not led me to atheism I might have problems but that isn't the case. If I had found atheism via selfishness, I might have serious problems but that isn't the case. I set out to find truth at all costs. It led me out of Christianity straight into atheism at significant cost to myself. Jesus is one of my greatest heroes and I am not ashamed to make this known. Jesus stopped at nothing; nor do I.
Whether what I have is true atheism is open to question but that is the term best understood by Christians so that is what I call it. Jesus was not an atheist because he believed in God but that makes no difference to me.
As for WLC's charge that atheism is culpable. That's a false charge and just plain ludicrous. WLC obviously has not honestly researched the matter. He can make better bucks by saying atheism is culpable so he says atheism is culpable. Christianity is heading down the tubes and Christians are desperate so they make stupid statements like that. Makes them feel better about themselves.
It may be another couple centuries but it's heading that way. Unless Christians figure out an honest and humane theology. Some progressive Christians such as John Shelby Spong are actually on a good road in that direction and that may be the religion of tomorrow, since so many people seem to need religion. But fundyism is on the way out; it's too radical and inhumane. Humanity as a whole cannot stand for it.
People on all sides of the issues see that religion cannot stop this stupid war, nor can it keep the economy from crashing, etc.
__________________
It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. –Carl Sagan, Demon-Haunted World, p. 12 |
| Loading... | |
