Quote: Originally Posted by LNC
So, where do you stand in relation to the standard that you have espoused? If you are right, and for many reasons I am doubtful of that, then no one could be in heaven. Yet, Jesus said to the thief on the cross, "today you will be with me in Paradise." I appreciate your zeal to call Evangelicals to live what we believe, although I think you have confused the gospel message with a combination of some works-based religion and even mixed in some Jehovah's Witness teaching.
Of course I'm right! But there is no JW teaching in there. What you are getting there is Old Order Mennonite preaching. And yes, of course there will be people in heaven but it won't be the evangelicals and I am not asking evangelicals to live up to what they believe because they believe the wrong things! The thing about 144,000 souls in heaven comes straight from the Bible itself--Revelation, to be accurate. I don't need to consult any preacher for that detail.
Where do I stand in relation to the standard I have espoused? I'm going to hell according to the Old Order Mennonites. According to the modern or new order Mennonites, the horse and buggy people (old order Mennonites) are building too much on works but that's not true. They believe in grace and faith in the shed blood of Christ for their salvation, but they believe that what happens in the heart shows on the outside.
A true Christian is meek, humble, and content with a simple life. A true Christian is "in the world but not of the world." As such, a true Christian does not need the modern worldly conveniences such as the automobile, TV, radio, and the internet. Nor will a meek and humble Christian want or need store-bought clothing such as t-shirts and blue jeans. Women who are true Christians will not want to cut their hair, or wear pant suits; they will be content with plain skirts, long hair, head-covering. Also, true Christians will not lust for worldly education. They will be content not to know more than is necessary to earn their bread by the sweat of their brow. Eight years of formal education is all that is needed for this; anything above and beyond this is "of the world." There is abundant scripture for this.
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You can rest assured that I know all the reasons these people are wrong. But it really gets my goat that you self-righteous evangelicals think you are better than atheists when you are just as condemned as atheists are. You ARE "the world" against which Old Order Mennonites warn. You ARE "the world" in the poem:
The church and the world walked far apart On the changing shores of time. The world was singing a giddy song The Church a hymn sublime. ********************************
The hymns from the 18th, 19th, and 20th centuries that you sing in your churches are so worldly and giddy compared to the sublime Gregorian chant music used in our church. (Example. Slow it down to about a quarter of the time and you will have something similar to our church music.)
There is no comparison. It took me years to get used to your modern music. And I still can't quite get it into my head that I'm in church when I attend an evangelical church. I only went there because I needed a community when my people crowded me out. People are dressed so strange and worldly and they speak English and everything is all wrong.
Real church is a plain white plaster on the inside and plain pine benches, men on one side of the building and women on the other side. Sermons, hymns, and scripture in German. So is all conversation and everyday talk. English is used ONLY for writing and when talking to outsiders who don't understand the normal everyday language of Pennsylvania German. This culture is the bedrock of society and anyone who thinks otherwise just doesn't know much.
I realize that is a very ethnocentric view of the world but I think it's time American evangelicals realize that there are other ethnocentric views of the world beside their own, and that these other ethnocentric views are just as real and just as valid. Besides, the Old Order Mennonites really do think that evangelicals are pretty stupid when it comes to stuff that is worth knowing or that really matters.
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“Come, give me your hand,” said the merry World, “And walk with me this way!” But the faithful Church hid her gentle hands And solemnly answered “Nay! I will not give you my hand at all, And I will not walk with you; Your way is the way that leads to death; Your words are all untrue.” ************************************** That's the worldly evangelicals that try to entice us to their worldly churches with cars and TVs, cheap grace, etc. ******************************************
“Nay, walk with me but a little space,” Said the World with a kindly air; “The road I walk is a pleasant road, And the sun shines always there. *************************************** That's the evangelicals enticing us with saying we build only on works and that it's all by faith and grace. They just promote cheap grace to make the road to heaven so easy. DON'T LISTEN TO THEM. THEIR WAY LEADS STRAIGHT TO HELL. *****************************************
Your path is thorny and rough and rude, But mine is broad and plain; My way is paved with flowers and dews, And yours with tears and pain.
The sky to me is always blue, No want, no toil I know; The sky above you is always dark, Your lot is a lot of woe. There’s room enough for you and me To travel side by side.”
***************************************** More of the same. DON'T LISTEN TO THEM. Besides, we have many joys they don't know about. They are so busy going to church and looking good that they don't have time for family and simple pleasures. ******************************************* Half shyly the Church approached the World And gave him her hand of snow; And the old World grasped it and walked along, Saying, in accents low: **************************************** This is a neighbouring church. My mother kept telling me about it. She remembered when they were plain. Today they cannot be identified from the rest of the world. Very sad. *****************************************
“Your dress is too simple to please my taste; I will give you pearls to wear, Rich velvets and silks for your graceful form, And diamonds to deck your hair.” The Church looked down at her plain white robes, And then at the dazzling World, And blushed as she saw his handsome lip With a smile contemptuous curled. “I will change my dress for a costlier one,” Said the Church, with a smile of grace; Then her pure white garments drifted away, And the World gave, in their place, Beautiful satins and shining silks, Roses and gems and costly pearls; While over her forehead her bright hair fell Crisped in a thousand curls. “Your house is too plain,” said the proud old World, “I’ll build you one like mine; With walls of marble and towers of gold, And furniture ever so fine.” So he built her a costly and beautiful house; Most splendid it was to behold; Her sons and her beautiful daughters dwelt there Gleaming in purple and gold. Rich fairs and shows in the halls were held, And the World and his children were there. Laughter and music and feasts were heard In the place that was meant for prayer. ************************************* This is the story of what happens when plain people start giving their hand to "the world." My aunt kept her plain dress but her children did not and her grandchildren go with any weird style of fringe groups in "the world." She and her husband left the plain church because they wanted Sunday School for their children. So did others. But this is the way things go. That is what I was taught. ***************************************
There-were cushioned seats for the rich and the gay, To sit in their pomp and pride; But the poor who were clad in shabby array, Sat meekly down outside. “You give too much to the poor,” said the World. “Far more than you ought to do; If they are in need of shelter and food, Why need it trouble you? Go, take your money and buy rich robes, Buy horses and carriages fine; Buy pearls and jewels and dainty food, Buy the rarest and costliest wine. My children, they dote on all these things, And if you their love would win You must do as they do, and walk in the ways That they are walking in.” So the poor were turned from her door in scorn, And she heard not the orphan’s cry; But she drew her beautiful robes aside, As the widows went weeping by. *************************************** This sounds like prosperity gospel which, so far as I know, Mennonites of all stripes shun like the plague. It violates human sensibilities of compassion and empathy. *****************************************
Then the sons of the World and the Sons of the Church Walked closely hand and heart, And only the Master, who knoweth all, Could tell the two apart. Then the Church sat down at her ease, and said, “I am rich and my goods increase; I have need of nothing, or aught to do, But to laugh, and dance, and feast.” The sly World heard, and he laughed in his sleeve, And mockingly said, aside: “The Church is fallen, the beautiful Church; And her shame is her boast and her pride.” The angel drew near to the mercy seat, And whispered in sighs her name; Then the loud anthems of rapture were hushed, And heads were covered with shame. And a voice was heard at last by the Church From Him who sat on the throne: “I know thy works, and how thou hast said, ‘I am rich, and hast not known That thou art naked, poor and blind, And wretched before my face;’ Therefore from my presence cast I thee out, And blot thy name from its place.” ***************************
That is exactly what I was taught would happen with the evangelicals--and to us if we dared give them so much as our hand. Just look at what happened to my cousins and their children. So that's the teaching that always is in the back of my mind. According to it I am going to hell unless I repent. And so are you guys.
As I said in my earlier post, throughout history there are enough people outside the evangelicals to make up the 144,000 quota for heaven. The horse and buggy people of the 20th and 21rst centuries can represent recent generations. And before the 20 century, these modern conveniences did not exist. __________________ It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. –Carl Sagan, Demon-Haunted World, p. 12 |