jherbert360
Registered: 10/15/08
Posts: 628
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| | 10/31/08 at 01:46 PM | Reply with quote | #1 |
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If god truly wants us to have free will, then why does the bible indicate that he abhors us using said will in any way but that which he dictates? What if rather than spend eternity any where, we would prefer oblivion? Is that a choice? Obviously we didn't choose to be created, he forced consciousness upon each of us. Are we truly nothing more than a simple accessory to him, no purpose to our existence but to glorify his own existence? Or to be tossed aside like a dirty rag if we don't believe or choose to follow our own path independent of his intentions? Is his proclamation of our free will nothing more than an ironic slap in the face? If he does exist, then I find our current position rather unsettling.
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forhisglory
Registered: 01/28/08
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jherbert360
Registered: 10/15/08
Posts: 628
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| | 10/31/08 at 02:21 PM | Reply with quote | #3 |
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That paper doesn't answer any of my questions. I didn't ask if god was egotistical, I asked about free will, why he seems so obsessed with us possessing it, yet hates us to use it in any form other than that which he dictates. And why would we be forced to remain conscious for eternity? What about our free will to decide that we don't like his "gift", that, rather than offered, was forced down our throats?
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forhisglory
Registered: 01/28/08
Posts: 2,167
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| | 10/31/08 at 02:28 PM | Reply with quote | #4 |
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I have to run jherbert, but let me say this. First, I was hoping the article would respond specifically to what you said here:
Quote: Are we truly nothing more than a simple accessory to him, no purpose to our existence but to glorify his own existence? Or to be tossed aside like a dirty rag if we don't believe or choose to follow our own path independent of his intentions?
Secondly, let's assume for the moment that God doesn't exist. Does that affect how you perceive free will? Do have the freedom to defy gravity or breath underwater without an O2 tank? You have freedom within certain parameters. It's just like the USA. It's a free country, and a great place to live. But we still have laws. We drive down "freeways" but there are rules that must obeyed in order for anyone to have any freedom of movement on them. A free-for-all would be chaos, not freedom. Besides, it would be against God's nature to annihilate a life He's created. We can't say that nonbeing is better than being. That's a category mistake, like saying nonapple tastes better than apple. There's actually nothing there to compare. I hope that makes sense. Talk to you later 
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billclute
Registered: 12/12/07
Posts: 1,941
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| | 10/31/08 at 02:32 PM | Reply with quote | #5 |
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Quote: And why would we be forced to remain conscious for eternity? What about our free will to decide that we don't like his "gift", that, rather than offered, was forced down our throats?
The gift isn't forced down our throats. It is put out there for us to take or leave. Now, if He was to say love Me or cease to exist, that would be immoral.
Look at it this way. Parents have children. The children didn't choose to be born but the parents chose to have the children. The parents have the children because they want to love them and have the children return that love as they grow. As the children grow they are free to love the parents and free to not love them. The parents can't force the children to love them. At some point, when old enough, the children have the choice to be with the parents or away from them. It would be immoral for the parents at that point to terminate the children because they weren't loved by them.
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"You can't be my boss! Nobody's my boss! I'm my own boss! I created myself!" - White Goodman |
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jherbert360
Registered: 10/15/08
Posts: 628
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| | 10/31/08 at 02:33 PM | Reply with quote | #6 |
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Well, I'm glad that it's not likely this god exists. I do have the freedom to end my life if I don't find it to my liking. And you don't know it, and you never will, but death will be the true definition of perfection. I for the most part enjoy life, but I'm looking forward to death.
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billclute
Registered: 12/12/07
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| | 10/31/08 at 02:37 PM | Reply with quote | #7 |
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Quote: And you don't know it, and you never will, but death will be the true definition of perfection. I for the most part enjoy life, but I'm looking forward to death.
That statement really gives me shivers and I hope I'm just reading more into it than was implied.
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"You can't be my boss! Nobody's my boss! I'm my own boss! I created myself!" - White Goodman |
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jherbert360
Registered: 10/15/08
Posts: 628
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| | 10/31/08 at 02:42 PM | Reply with quote | #8 |
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You don't understand, and few ever will or have. You can't understand the concept of death because you are a conscious being, and you don't like the concept of non existence. Were you afraid of death before you were born? It will be perfection because there will be nothing, no pain, no joy nothing. You won't mind it when it happens, but avoid the thought while you live. Many can't handle it, I embrace it wholeheartedly.
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eric
Registered: 12/03/07
Posts: 4,158
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| | 10/31/08 at 03:02 PM | Reply with quote | #9 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by billcluteQuote: And you don't know it, and you never will, but death will be the true definition of perfection. I for the most part enjoy life, but I'm looking forward to death.
That statement really gives me shivers and I hope I'm just reading more into it than was implied.
As I said rightly in another thread, the god of the atheist is Death.
Happy Halloween, James. It's your Christmas.
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One person with God is a majority.
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jherbert360
Registered: 10/15/08
Posts: 628
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| | 10/31/08 at 03:08 PM | Reply with quote | #10 |
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Indeed. I need not heaven nor hell, and I see no good reason to believe in either. I am alive, and I will die. Common sense is what tells me what is most likely true, and to return to my former unborn state is satisfactory. I would say you'll see, but you won't. You just won't exist.
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eric
Registered: 12/03/07
Posts: 4,158
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| | 10/31/08 at 04:31 PM | Reply with quote | #11 |
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You had better be right.
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One person with God is a majority.
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rsmartin
Registered: 07/09/08
Posts: 2,480
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| | 10/31/08 at 04:38 PM | Reply with quote | #12 |
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Humans have looked long and hard and no evidence has yet surfaced to suggest that jherbert is wrong.
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It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. –Carl Sagan, Demon-Haunted World, p. 12 |
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eric
Registered: 12/03/07
Posts: 4,158
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| | 10/31/08 at 04:42 PM | Reply with quote | #13 |
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Quote: Humans have looked long and hard and no evidence has yet surfaced to suggest that jherbert is wrong.
See my new avatar? The glass half-empty/half-full is to represent both the atheists' will to see the created order as a mere happenstance and the theists' will to see the same created order as a creation.
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One person with God is a majority.
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forhisglory
Registered: 01/28/08
Posts: 2,167
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| | 10/31/08 at 04:42 PM | Reply with quote | #14 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by rsmartin
Humans have looked long and hard and no evidence has yet surfaced to suggest that jherbert is wrong.
Does this imply you have evidence to suggest he's right? |
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rsmartin
Registered: 07/09/08
Posts: 2,480
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| | 10/31/08 at 04:59 PM | Reply with quote | #15 |
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Eric, the idea of an atheist having a god is ludicrous. The word a-theist means god-less: without god. An atheist has no god.
Maybe you cannot get your head around the idea that some people truly do not worship anything but it's true.
If the best you can do is declare that Halloween is the atheist's Christmas, all you are doing is substituting one god for another. That is not what the atheist does. The atheist accepts your half-empty glass and says, "Hey! this is life, let's live it!"
The Christian looks a the glass that is half full and turns up his nose. "I want all life has to offer," he whines. "I need the Ruler and Creator of the Universe on my side if I am supposed to find meaning in life. Otherwise life is nothing but a meaningless existence that ends at death. I won't matter. Nothing I do will matter. How utterly unacceptable!"
The exChristian grimaces to him or herself and thinks, "Am I ever glad I got out of that hell-hole religion! If only I could share with them how much better life is when one can enjoy it for its own sake. All these worries about having to matter! One life at a time seems to be all we humans can deal with competently. But nobody listens to the voice of experience. Wishful thinking is so much more enticing. So be it."
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It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. –Carl Sagan, Demon-Haunted World, p. 12 |
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