rsmartin
Registered: 07/09/08
Posts: 2,480
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| | 11/01/08 at 08:30 PM | Reply with quote | #16 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by CraigQuote: I don't think you should, nor should anyone else. I was only checking to make sure you realized what you were saying because it didn't exactly make sense.
You have just defeated yourself rsmartin. have a nice day. by this Quote: My efforts at what? My efforts at enjoying life? I think I am the only person qualified to speak on that. But yes, it does matter to me what you believe. When some of the most powerful portions of the earth's human population: - believe in ID and creationism
- rejection of modernism
- uphold religious world view against all proven facts for fear of hell
- willing to make major sacrifices for their religious beliefs rather than risk the alternative, i.e. spend eternity in hell
- develop (or try their utmost to do so) an entire society based on their religious beliefs
- organize to use the vote to achieve political ends, including the block of scientific progress that could alleviate human suffering, and the removal from public schools of science education
- reject anyone who rejects their beliefs; those who live in countries where execution is legal will use it; those who don't will use whatever psychological tools of torture are at their disposal, including mockery, ostracism, and excommunication
it matters what religious beliefs people have. It matters on the level of life and death. That list was originally posted in my Post 107 on this thread.
LOL Finally I understand what happened. Here is the post I was responding to:
Quote: Originally Posted by CraigQuote: You do realize, Craig do you, that when you enter non-being that you will not have the awareness or consciousness to become an atheist? In other words, absolutely nothing will convince you. You have closed your mind to considering the alternative. You have accepted God's existence on a total lack of evidence, but you will accept his nonexistence only on empirical evidence. However, you will do this only in a situation where it is totally impossible to do so, i.e. when you have totally ceased to exist. Do I correctly understand your position?
Yes and my question to you would be: Why should I really care? It will not matter what I choose...everyone is doomed to non-being if God doesnt exist so you will not remember me choosing this position either...so your efforts are futile.
Possibly you and I were thinking about two different things with reference to "why should I care." I thought you meant why should you care about not existing. I don't think you should, nor should anyone else.
However, I care what you believe for the reasons stated. What we believe is one thing. How we feel (care) about those beliefs is quite another. If you don't care about being an atheist and not existing when you die, that is one thing. If you believe that being a Christian is the one and only goal worth living for in life and that everyone in the world needs to conform to your beliefs--as I showed that many powerful Christians do--that is quite another.
I don't think I have defeated myself at all. 
And yes, my day has been nice, thank you.
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It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. –Carl Sagan, Demon-Haunted World, p. 12 |
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foodmaniac2003
Registered: 08/18/08
Posts: 34
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| | 11/02/08 at 03:51 AM | Reply with quote | #17 |
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As forhisglory mentioned previously, if they somehow, say, found the body of Jesus, and overwhelmingly proved that this is the actual body of Jesus of Nazareth, then yes, I would give up my Christianity
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rsmartin
Registered: 07/09/08
Posts: 2,480
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| | 11/02/08 at 03:37 PM | Reply with quote | #18 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by foodmaniac2003
As forhisglory mentioned previously, if they somehow, say, found the body of Jesus, and overwhelmingly proved that this is the actual body of Jesus of Nazareth, then yes, I would give up my Christianity
Given that bodies decompose, finding the body of a man who died two thousand years ago is not a reasonable item to list as being evidence that Christianity is false. In fact, I am sure that if his body were found Christians would decide that it is so outstandingly miraculous that he had to be the Son of God for sure. Christians would figure out another way to account for the resurrection stories in the NT.
As we all know, the evidence that Jesus did not resurrect physically is so strong on all levels that I suggest that anybody who wants to remain a Christian not use the bodily resurrection of Jesus for the basis of his/her faith. Someone suggested that I am wrong about this but I considered the post not worth responding to. I fail to see how any rational, sane individual can say that with a clear conscience.
We all know that nobody rises from the dead. We all know that fleshly bodies cannot move through walls as the resurrected Jesus was said to do, or walk on water. We also know that spiritual bodies or ghosts cannot eat or be handled (touched) by other people like the NT claims of Jesus. The most logical conclusion is that somebody was making up stories and that Christians really are/were the most miserable among all creatures, just like Paul said. There is, after all, a reason why exChristians feel so relieved at having come out of the Death Cult.
There's more. We all know that ID is nothing but pretend science. I suspect that the person who told me that the evidence proves me wrong was based at least in part on ID arguments. Thus, we have magic and make belief stories based on pretend science.
I keep telling people here that you have invented an alternative reality. This is evidence of it. Jesus rose from the dead only in your alternative reality. ID is real science only in your alternative reality. The "evidence" for his resurrection exists only in your alternative reality.
The problems come in when you talk to the rest of us--and your children and students--as though you were talking about the real world. You need to caution everybody that you are now going into a rant about your alternative reality, and you need to permit any listeners to tune you out. Obviously, no one is obligated to listen to rants about alternative realities for which no evidence exists.
If you do not do this, you open yourselves to charges of lying and intentional deception. The fact of the matter is that you present false views and false impressions of the universe and of reality. You need to accept this.
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It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. –Carl Sagan, Demon-Haunted World, p. 12 |
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bdsimon
Registered: 12/12/07
Posts: 463
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| | 11/02/08 at 05:03 PM | Reply with quote | #19 |
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Quote: As we all know, the evidence that Jesus did not resurrect physically is so strong on all levels that I suggest that anybody who wants to remain a Christian not use the bodily resurrection of Jesus for the basis of his/her faith. Someone suggested that I am wrong about this but I considered the post not worth responding to. I fail to see how any rational, sane individual can say that with a clear conscience.
If the evidence was compelling that Jesus had not risen from the dead, then there would actually be a viable alternative theory that would meet the resurrection theory in explanatory power and scope. It has been two thousand years and there is still no theory that does not fail miserably. Why is that?
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wonderer
Registered: 09/08/08
Posts: 2,835
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| | 11/02/08 at 08:55 PM | Reply with quote | #20 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by bdsimon
If the evidence was compelling that Jesus had not risen from the dead, then there would actually be a viable alternative theory that would meet the resurrection theory in explanatory power and scope. It has been two thousand years and there is still no theory that does not fail miserably. Why is that?
The fact of the matter is that there is little compelling evidence on the matter at all. There's some evidence outside the Bible that Jesus existed, but not much.
__________________
“It is in the admission of ignorance and the admission of uncertainty that there is a hope for the continuous motion of human beings in some direction that doesn't get confined, permanently blocked, as it has so many times before in various periods in the history of man." - Richard Feynman |
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Craig
Registered: 12/03/07
Posts: 2,658
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| | 11/02/08 at 09:50 PM | Reply with quote | #21 |
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LOL rsmartin! I love yoU!!!!
im smilling right now because of you!
God bless you! whether you believe or not 
sorry for the confusion!
__________________
"You'll never stop at one. Ill take you all on!" - Optimus Prime |
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general_knox
Registered: 03/13/08
Posts: 195
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| | 11/04/08 at 01:07 PM | Reply with quote | #22 |
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Quote: Knox, I always thought you passed for a Christian. What do you believe? You seem to believe that Jesus was real if you think he could have left a journal with that statement, and you must believe that he preached what the NT says he did. You must also believe in extraterrestrial beings of some sort--gods or aliens, etc. A better question might be: How are you not a Christian?
Well, I dont necessarily believe that the person "Jesus" actually existed on earth 100% the way the bible says. However, I would have to say (from reading parts of the new testament), IF Jesus were real, and he really DID say/did what the bible says he said/did, I agree with probably 80% of what he did/said. To me, he doesnt ACTUALLY have to be real for me to "grasp" the teachings. The animals in Easop's fables dont have to be real for me to appreciate the "teachings" inside.
I still dont think there is enough proof (for me personally) that he is the "son of God"...However, even if it was all "made up", I still dont see how what he taught is "baloney". I think it doesnt matter wether he is real or not, I like a lot of his teachings.
I dont follow a lot of his teachings, however, because even if I try, I cant do it "perfectly". Nor do I pretend I can. I dont agree with the holier-than-thou, and I hate hypocrisy (amongst christians and atheists).
I believe that people who "shyt" on other people because they dont share the same beliefs deserve any disrespect you can throw at them...which, of course, if I were to follow Jesus in turning the other cheek...I would "fail". I guess you can say (wether he is real or not), I am sympathetic to what this character "Jesus" taught, while knowing that it is hard to follow.
I believe there is some sort of "God" or "Higher Intelligence" out there, not sure what it is though. Im not sure if "aliens" exist, but there is a possibility...in which case, IF aliens did exist, I personally would have an even bigger hard time believing in christianity (even though some people here say it doesnt have any effect on their own belief in chrisitianity).
I dont believe that if dont go to church, you will go to "hell". IF chrisitianity were true, I think hell is just the extermination of the "soul" for eternity, not a literal "place" of torment someone is sent.
I believe most of the old testament is "made up", or atleast, in my opinion, "irrelevant". I dont like the old testament Yahweh. I disagree with a lot of things in the old testament. However, I dont think it necessarily promotes what so many atheists claim it does, like incest or killing babies, etc...I believe it only mentions these things happening during those times, but doesnt promote it. Kind of like how history books mention Hitler + holocaust, but doesnt PROMOTE the holocaust.
So basically, what Im saying is, IF Jesus were PROVEN to be true, I would have to admit I would be happy to know this...and of course, also "worried". If he was PROVEN not to be true, (I havent been convinced of this yet)...well, I would be a bit disappointed, but I would still agree about 70-80% what this "fictious character" said/did. I wouldnt feel a huge urgency to follow his teachings "fanatically" though, since there would be no consequences if I didnt (since he would have been PROVEN not to exist).
I dont believe in a "satan" like the bible says though, I see "satan" more of a representation of evil/misplaced/bad/unhealthy human desires.
I believe that there are people here that spew way too much hatred onto these christians, and says more about that person that anything...I feel sad for those who feel they need to push people off the merry-go-round of life instead of just trying to get on the most rides possible before their time is up. There are trully better things to do than to steal cotton-candy from kids, and beat up the guy selling balloons.
IF christianity were not true, and we ALL had a limited time at the fair, does it really matter if the kids on the seesaws were laughing and smiling for a different reason than you? Arent you and those little children going to end up in the same place anyways? Why do you feel the need to destroy their joy? Just be happy for them that they are having a good time, and go on and enjoy your own rides.
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rsmartin
Registered: 07/09/08
Posts: 2,480
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| | 11/04/08 at 05:25 PM | Reply with quote | #23 |
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General Knox, thank you for a very good post. You state your position clearly and answer a few other questions at the same time. I agree that spoiling the fun of others just because I don't agree with them is not a mature thing to do. I think people can do whatever they want to so long as they don't hurt themselves or others.
When it comes to organized religion, it is hard to say whether adults are hurting themselves. But when religion causes people to kill others it clearly hurts others. It also puts themselves directly into harm's way because the people they target are sure to attempt self-defense. Normally, this ends up being war.
I realize that some people disagree that 9/11 was caused by religion. The people who disagree that the terrorist attacks were caused by religion tend to be religious people. Nonreligious people tend to see it as a holy war. I was taking a course with an agnostic in sociology of religion when it happened. The first class was on Sept. 10, 2001.
The professor asked the class if we students thought holy wars still happened. We shrugged. We didn't know. It seemed unlikely. Not in the West. I figured we were far too intelligent and evolved socially. We just didn't do that kind of thing. I did not think we would even go to war if given the opportunity because that just isn't the way we do things these days.
The next day, Sept. 11, 2001, I was at home. We had no TV or radio. Around noon my sister called me from work and asked, "Have you heard what is happening in the States?" We are in Ontario, about an hour and a half from the international border. The question seemed very strange. I had not heard. She then started recounting about the various buildings into which jets had flown. Nobody really knew what had taken place or who was behind all of this. The closest thing I had ever heard like it was stories from WW2. I said, "This sounds almost like war."
The next day was the second class with the agnostic professor in sociology of religion. He reminded us that the first day he had asked whether we thought holy wars still happened. On Sept. 12 he asked, "What do you think now?" There was no question in his mind that religion was behind this. This was before it had been possible for much conversation to take place between scholars about the incident. I'm not sure if the airlines were operating yet when he said that. The Toronto airport had been shut down. No air traffic was seen in our area for a day or two.
There could have been communication via telephone or email, though not everybody had email yet back then, and anyway, there had not been time for much conversation to have taken place. He personally had spent the day worrying whether his wife would get home safely from Toronto, which is also about an hour and a half away by car.
My point is that 9/11 was tabbed as a holy war by agnostic sociology of religion right from the beginning. Religious people might not want to accept this but that does not change the facts. Books have been written on it. RELIGION KILLS.
Christianity kills in more subtle ways. It calls people to war. (I was simply wrong in my belief that Western countries would not go to war. I was also bitterly disappointed because Jesus said to turn the other cheek.) Religion stops scientists from progressing in areas of study that could heal terminal illness. It is true that everybody must die anyway but why must they die of terrible curable illness at a young age?
Conservative Christianity forbids certain kinds of birth control such as abortion. Forbidding abortion in certain situations can lead to the severe abuse of an unwanted child. Whether or not this leads to actual murder, it is extremely hurtful--not only for the present generation but for many subsequent generations because the person who was abused often passed the tradition of abuse on.
Those are a few of the ways in which Christianity--and other religions--hurt people on the large scale.
I will go through your post to see if there is anything else I want to respond to.
Quote: Originally Posted by general_knox
Well, I dont necessarily believe that the person "Jesus" actually existed on earth 100% the way the bible says. However, I would have to say (from reading parts of the new testament), IF Jesus were real, and he really DID say/did what the bible says he said/did, I agree with probably 80% of what he did/said. To me, he doesnt ACTUALLY have to be real for me to "grasp" the teachings. The animals in Easop's fables dont have to be real for me to appreciate the "teachings" inside.
I love the stories and teachings of Jesus. Whether he was a real person or just a great mythical hero, I love him. I also think God is a human term to embody that which is understood by humans as most noble. Thus, when I see Christians living in such a way as to bring dishonour and shame to the name of God or Jesus, I feel a very strong revulsion. I am not a Christian because so far, I have been unable to find answers to key questions about how the Plan of Salvation works, nor could I find any evidence whatsoever for God's existence. But I cannot tolerate people doing evil in the name of the most noble and greatest human heroes known to humanity. "God" can be seen as one of the West's "heroes" because he is part of our cultural mythology even if we are not religious.
Quote: I still dont think there is enough proof (for me personally) that he is the "son of God"...However, even if it was all "made up", I still dont see how what he taught is "baloney". I think it doesnt matter wether he is real or not, I like a lot of his teachings.
As stated, so do I. From a mythological perspective I can see how he would be the "son of God." For me, this was never a serious problem but everyone has their own hang-ups. I think that if God is who and what religion tells us then there should be answers for these questions and/or hang-ups. After all, God is supposed to be omniscient, which means he knows everything.
For me, "knowing everything" means he knows all logic and all facts and he also knows how to communicate this so that educated intellectuals in the 21st century find that Christian theology makes sense and hangs together, and fits in with the rest of what is known about the universe and life in general. A God who knows everything would have caused his Word (Bible, Qu'ran, etc.) to be written in such a way that the same applied to it.
Quote: I dont follow a lot of his teachings, however, because even if I try, I cant do it "perfectly". Nor do I pretend I can. I dont agree with the holier-than-thou, and I hate hypocrisy (amongst christians and atheists).
I feel the same way and so did Jesus.
Quote: I believe that people who "shyt" on other people because they dont share the same beliefs deserve any disrespect you can throw at them...which, of course, if I were to follow Jesus in turning the other cheek...I would "fail".
QUESTION: Do you believe it is more okay for religious people to "shyt" on atheists than for atheists to "shyt" on religious people?
Here are some things Christians commonly do that I find highly offensive:
- They tell me what I believe without even asking; they think they know because I am an atheist but there is no such thing as an "atheistic world view," and definitely not the one Norm Geisler and Frank Turek describe in I Don't Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist.
- They don't believe me and other atheists when we explain that there is no such thing as an atheistic worldview.
- They accuse us of not being moral but they produce no evidence for it. In this way, they deny us the opportunity to defend ourselves.
- In those cases that we do defend ourselves they say we are not telling the truth. The "evidence" they provide for their side is beliefs from their religion that have nothing to do with the situation.
- They say we are lying when we don't believe what they think we should believe.
- They say I am rude, or call me names, or worse, when I am asking a sincere question.
- They accuse me of things I have never said, thought, felt, or done when I want real answers to my questions, and cannot accept the pat answers they provide.
- They accuse me of being worthy of damnation for not accepting their answers, yet their answers do not hang together in light of everything else that is known about life and the universe.
- They put forward obvious lies about the universe, life in general, and humanity, in order to make their god and religion--and themselves--look good. The offenses committed around this would make another entire list.
Those are a few of the things Christians are constantly doing to me and other nonreligious people. There is hardly a post that passes in which no offense is committed. All I want is for Christians to face up to the lies they are propogating in the name of god. So far, they will attack me (I think they'd burn me at the stake if it were legal) before they will so much as even look at whatever topic I try to get them to discuss. Honest truth-seekers don't behave like this.
Quote: I guess you can say (wether he is real or not), I am sympathetic to what this character "Jesus" taught, while knowing that it is hard to follow.
I don't find him that hard to follow. He had no conscience against calling liars and hypocrites on their deviant behaviour. The regular rules for life he talks about such as keeping the ten commandments (outside of believing in God) are natural human traits that I find quite easy to follow. I don't necessarily keep the Sabbath holy but I take time off for relaxation. When it comes to the finer details about sexual behaviour, the more liberal Christians don't take them literally, either.
Quote: I believe there is some sort of "God" or "Higher Intelligence" out there, not sure what it is though. Im not sure if "aliens" exist, but there is a possibility...in which case, IF aliens did exist, I personally would have an even bigger hard time believing in christianity (even though some people here say it doesnt have any effect on their own belief in chrisitianity).
I don't know a thing about aliens and am not interested in learning, I guess. I have not yet seen any evidence for extraterestrial intelligence but I think each of us have to come to our own conclusions and personal convictions on things like this. It seems to be organized religion that hurts people because it is only through organizations that human institutions can accomplish much on the mass social level. I have not yet heard of any deists who hurt society. In fact, deists like Jefferson and the American founding fathers are often quoted as great benefactors of humanity. (Oops, I just opened a can of worms because Christians want to claim these heroes for their own. Unfortunately, they have little basis for doing so. Hitler, on the other hand, was protected and prayed for by the Vatican till his death, and never renounced his belief in God. He was a Christian though neither Christian nor atheist wants him today.)
Quote: I dont believe that if dont go to church, you will go to "hell". IF chrisitianity were true, I think hell is just the extermination of the "soul" for eternity, not a literal "place" of torment someone is sent.
I know quite a few Christians believe this way.
Quote: I believe most of the old testament is "made up", or atleast, in my opinion, "irrelevant".
A few characters, place names, and events recorded in the OT are also recorded elsewhere so they are probably true. However, "big names" like Abraham, Moses, and Kings David and Solomon probably never existed. My OT teacher, a devout Christian, believed that everything before Abraham was myth. She also pointed out that the prophecies in Isaiah on which the Virgin Birth of Christ are based are in fact mistranslations made by the Jewish scholars who translated the Hebrew Scriptures into Greek. This is known today as the Septuagint. The Septuagint is the "Scriptures" of the NT. It is what Jesus and the apostles used if they existed; if they didn't exist, then the people who believed they did used the Septuagint as Scripture.
Quote: I dont like the old testament Yahweh. I disagree with a lot of things in the old testament. However, I dont think it necessarily promotes what so many atheists claim it does, like incest or killing babies, etc...I believe it only mentions these things happening during those times, but doesnt promote it. Kind of like how history books mention Hitler + holocaust, but doesnt PROMOTE the holocaust.
I had mixed feeling on this while I was a Christian and can't comment. Well, I wonder sometimes whether some people might take it out of context a bit overmuch. I don't know. I consider it irrelevant.
Quote: So basically, what Im saying is, IF Jesus were PROVEN to be true,
Sure, if God and Jesus were proven to be true, that would be great. Then I could fit in with the rest of society once more. I could go to church and sing the beautiful songs and music with a clear conscience. I could also participate in Christian festivities with a clear conscience and my family would be ever so glad. They would let me eat with them again for religious meals such as family funerals and weddings. As it is, they won't for religious reasons. And I would have to violate my conscience to convert.
Quote: If he was PROVEN not to be true, (I havent been convinced of this yet)...well, I would be a bit disappointed, but I would still agree about 70-80% what this "fictious character" said/did. I wouldnt feel a huge urgency to follow his teachings "fanatically" though, since there would be no consequences if I didnt (since he would have been PROVEN not to exist).
I'm curious about the 20% of his doings that you disagree with. I can't think of anything he did or said that I really disagree with, but my memory is not perfect.
Quote:
I believe that there are people here that spew way too much hatred onto these christians, and says more about that person that anything...I feel sad for those who feel they need to push people off the merry-go-round of life instead of just trying to get on the most rides possible before their time is up. There are trully better things to do than to steal cotton-candy from kids, and beat up the guy selling balloons.
IF christianity were not true, and we ALL had a limited time at the fair, does it really matter if the kids on the seesaws were laughing and smiling for a different reason than you? Arent you and those little children going to end up in the same place anyways? Why do you feel the need to destroy their joy? Just be happy for them that they are having a good time, and go on and enjoy your own rides.
I think you are referring to me, and possibly to others but I won't presume to speak for them. I know a lot of people, including at least one atheist, think I am not nice enough to the Christians. My personal position is that Christians do not deserve to be treated any better than they treat others. Out of self-respect, I think I do not treat them as badly as they treat atheists. In general, I don't think Christians receive anywhere near as much "shyt" on these forums as atheists do from them. For more on this, see my Posts 47 and 49 on this thread.
__________________
It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. –Carl Sagan, Demon-Haunted World, p. 12 |
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