| eric |
| Posted 09/16/07 at 04:24 PM | Reply with quote #31 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by Fred Hi Eric,
Again, Paul is talking about those who knew God in their hearts but rejected him. Do you see what I am saying here?
The people who have not heard have not made a choice. The people that Paul are referring to have made a choice.
In fact, Paul speaks about God having mercy on him in spite of his previous actions against Christian because of his ignorance. So, it would appear that there are those who do live in ignorance since Paul was one of them (I think the scripture is in Timothy).
Your interpretation is at odds with the common understanding of this scripture as a treatise on the natural man's natural bent to run from the God he knows, in his soul, to exist, just like our parents Adam and Eve who hid themselves from God after the fall, relying on deception (suppression of the truth) to justify their actions to themselves and to God. It is a picture of the natural enmity between God and humanity.
Paul, as Saul, had been ignorant of certain things, but had not rejected God; he was a devout Jew. His ignorance, for which he repented, was in that he saw the followers of Jesus to be infidels against YHWH. It is not his kind who he was describing in Romans 1.
Can you show me a commentary on the web where your view is supported? I have never heard such an interpretation. But I would like to see one, in depth.
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| Fred |
| Posted 09/17/07 at 07:11 AM | Reply with quote #32 |
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Quote: Can you show me a commentary on the web where your view is supported? I have never heard such an interpretation. But I would like to see one, in depth.
No, nothing on the world wide web. But I think it is theologically and scripturally sound.
Also, how is it at odds with man's fall? Consider what I am suggesting. Christ died on the cross, he offers us a free gift. In order to lose this gift, we would have to reject it. 'Those who have not heard' are not sinless. That is not what I am suggesting. I am saying that Christ offers his propitiation for all of us, it's up to us to reject it. Now, I have no idea how the complexities of Christ's judgment will work (none of us do). However, I'm willing to allow for the possibility that some who have not heard the message may be saved. That is all.
What about my points above regarding 'choice'. If we are debating whether everyone actually has a choice about God, then it is likely a fruitless discussion.
I could point to some remote tribes in South America and you may suggest that God has been talking to their hearts and they are ignoring him. I could say that Paul demonstrated that he was ignorant about the 'true' meaning of Christ thus proving that it can happen and you can say that he was really a man of God, he just needed a nudge. It's similar as to when a Catholic says that there is no salvation outside the church. However, they say that a Baptist could be saved, they simply never left the 'true church' in their heart. How do we debate that?
So, I doubt that it will go anywhere productive.
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| eric |
| Posted 09/17/07 at 11:04 AM | Reply with quote #33 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by Fred Also, how is it at odds with man's fall? Consider what I am suggesting. Christ died on the cross, he offers us a free gift. In order to lose this gift, we would have to reject it. 'Those who have not heard' are not sinless. That is not what I am suggesting. I am saying that Christ offers his propitiation for all of us, it's up to us to reject it. Now, I have no idea how the complexities of Christ's judgment will work (none of us do). However, I'm willing to allow for the possibility that some who have not heard the message may be saved. That is all. [QUOTE
I am not sure I have understood you correctly. Some things you say seem to place you as a universalist. Other statements seem to suggest you believe in some possible limitations for the atonement.
If all are saved unless they hear the gospel and reject it, then to spread the the gospel is to spread poison. Why would God want us to go around ruining his universal atonement? Why should we ruin a perfectly good universal atonement by making it possible for people to reject the salvation that they already had simply by not knowing about it? You said, "(Christ) offers us a free gift." That implies that there is some action required on the part of the recipient, doesn't it? And if you don't know the gift is being offered, how can you accept it? I am actually more liberal than many, since I do believe that if the Spirit moves someone (who is ignorant about Christ) to repentance toward the One True God, then Christ in heaven will not reject that person's repentance and will save the person (based on the atonement on the cross) without their conscious knowledge.
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| eric |
| Posted 09/17/07 at 11:04 AM | Reply with quote #34 |
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ooops, screwed that up! |
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| Fred |
| Posted 09/17/07 at 02:55 PM | Reply with quote #35 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by ericQuote: Originally Posted by Fred Also, how is it at odds with man's fall? Consider what I am suggesting. Christ died on the cross, he offers us a free gift. In order to lose this gift, we would have to reject it. 'Those who have not heard' are not sinless. That is not what I am suggesting. I am saying that Christ offers his propitiation for all of us, it's up to us to reject it. Now, I have no idea how the complexities of Christ's judgment will work (none of us do). However, I'm willing to allow for the possibility that some who have not heard the message may be saved. That is all. [QUOTE
I am not sure I have understood you correctly. Some things you say seem to place you as a universalist. Other statements seem to suggest you believe in some possible limitations for the atonement.
If all are saved unless they hear the gospel and reject it, then to spread the the gospel is to spread poison. Why would God want us to go around ruining his universal atonement? Why should we ruin a perfectly good universal atonement by making it possible for people to reject the salvation that they already had simply by not knowing about it? You said, "(Christ) offers us a free gift." That implies that there is some action required on the part of the recipient, doesn't it? And if you don't know the gift is being offered, how can you accept it? I am actually more liberal than many, since I do believe that if the Spirit moves someone (who is ignorant about Christ) to repentance toward the One True God, then Christ in heaven will not reject that person's repentance and will save the person (based on the atonement on the cross) without their conscious knowledge.
Eric, I think your last paragraph summarizes my basic position. I am definitely not a universalist. I think that the bible is clear on the existence of punishment. I'm just not sure how the mechanics will work. I can allow for what you said in the final paragraph and that is basically how I reconcile grace for the 'ignorant' (in the true sense of the word). |
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| Shaun |
| Posted 10/23/07 at 01:56 PM | Reply with quote #36 |
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I just came upon this post. I'm struggling with this issue myself. I don't know the answer but I offer this quote from Greg Koukl (http://www.str.org) for you to think about.
One question frequently stops Christians in their tracks: "If the Gospel alone saves, then what about the heathen in Africa who never heard?" Can God justly convict a man who hasn't heard about Jesus? Some people hear the Gospel and reject it, but most never hear it. How can God condemn them? Christians are ill-equipped to respond because they don't really understand something vital about sin and mercy. Sin brings guilt. Mercy is a gift. Anyone who is a sinner receives punishment he deserves. Anyone who is saved receives mercy he does not deserve and which is not owed him. Think of this question: How could the sheriff send anyone to jail if he didn't offer him a pardon first? The answer is simple. If he's guilty, the sheriff is justified in throwing him in jail. There is no obligation to offer a pardon to a guilty man. The same is true of God. He can justly convict a man who has broken His law even though the sinner has heard nothing about God's pardon in Jesus. God owes no one salvation. He can offer it to whomever He wishes. That's why it's called grace. |
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| frank n. ernest |
| Posted 10/23/07 at 10:07 PM | Reply with quote #37 |
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Actually Shaun, due to the way the gospel has spread as the world's population has increased, the percentage of people who have ever lived who have not heard some form of the gospel is small (and the longer the Lord tarries, the lower that percentage will be). Nevertheless, I understand your concern for those who simply never had a chance to hear it. I think deep down inside we know that if they were condemned simply for being "unlucky" by being born at the wrong time or place, that would seem unfair. But does God actually require us to have heard the gospel to get into heaven? Not in every case. To be sure, if you've heard it and rejected it, you can count on being excluded, but the Bible has numerous references to folks who never heard of Jesus that we can be sure are in heaven, such as Melchizedek. Peter says in Acts 10:34-35 that "God does not show favoritism, but accepts men from every nation who fear Him and do what is right." There seems to be a correlation between those who "fear Him and do what's right" and those who accept Christ if they're given a fair chance. Basically, these seem to me to be the same types of people, just with different levels of revelation. Revelations 5:9 says that Christ purchased many from "every tribe and language and people and nation." Since we know that some of these groups ceased to exist without ever hearing of Christ, this also seems to indicate that some will get to heaven without exposure to the gospel. What about infants and those who die in childhood who have not really had revelations to respond to? Matthew 11:20-24 gives the principle that those who would have responded to greater revelation will receive credit for that in their judgment. This is a key principle, in my opinion. It solves so many soteriological riddles. If the Lord is judging us all this way, it's all fair no matter what type of life one has. It's very simple; if you would have accepted Christ given a fair chance, that "WOULD HAVE" will be credited to you in judgment, and you'll be fine. God in his infinite wisdom knows all possibilities, actualized or not, so He knows what every creature would do under any possible hypothetical circumstance, and all "subjunctive counterfactuals of creaturely freedom". Therefore He knows whether or not any being would accept Him given a fair chance. Many believe in an "age of accountability" theory where infants and others who perish before a certain age go directly to heaven without exception. Dr. Craig takes this view, but I respectfully disagree with him. How could a child who would turn into a "Hitler" or a "Stalin" if he had stayed alive, be allowed into heaven? I just can't believe God would give free access to ALL who are cut short without regard to their nature. If their nature is such that they would have eventually accepted the gospel given a fair chance, then absolutely. If not, why let 'em in? In the FAQ section of the website, check out "Questions on Middle Knowledge". Dr. Craig states that he doesn't believe God should judge people on what they "WOULD DO", but rather only what they've actually done. I love Dr. Craig and have been very inspired by his work, but I think he needs to adjust his view here, as he himself has written within several pieces about the possibility that God has placed us in specific times/places based on exactly that--whether or not we would accept the gospel given the chance. If it's OK for God to have placed us in circumstances where we would not be exposed to the gospel, based on His knowledge of whether or not we would accept it given a fair chance, I don't see what would be wrong with Him simply judging all who never were exposed to the gospel on that basis. If anyone sees a flaw in my reasoning, I’d be happy to hear it. His best to you. |
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| loko5 |
| Posted 10/23/07 at 11:36 PM | Reply with quote #38 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by frank n. ernestIt's very simple; if you would have accepted Christ given a fair chance, that "WOULD HAVE" will be credited to you in judgment, and you'll be fine. God in his infinite wisdom knows all possibilities, actualized or not, so He knows what every creature would do under any possible hypothetical circumstance, and all "subjunctive counterfactuals of creaturely freedom". Therefore He knows whether or not any being would accept Him given a fair chance.
This sounds good on first inspection, as it avoids the issue of God playing favorites by giving some people the opportunity to hear the gospel but not others. The problem, though, is this: if God knows before we are even born whether we wil accept the gospel or not, then why are those who will not accept the gospel even here? Why would God allow them into existence knowing that they will be damned to an eternity in hell?
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| frank n. ernest |
| Posted 10/24/07 at 03:12 AM | Reply with quote #39 |
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On this question I agree with Dr. Craig's position (which I believe was previously developed by Alvin Plantinga), that
"there is no world feasible for God in which all persons freely respond to His gracious initiatives and so are saved. Given the truth of certain counterfactuals of creaturely freedom, it is possible that God did not have it within His power to realize a world in which all persons freely respond affirmatively to His offer of salvation. But in His omnibenevolence, He has actualized a world containing an optimal balance between saved and unsaved."
God will not force faith--we have the free will to choose. The real bottom line on anybody who is damned is that it's their own fault. God's mercy is incredible, but it seems that some will always choose to put themselves on the throne in His place.
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| loko5 |
| Posted 10/24/07 at 10:19 AM | Reply with quote #40 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by frank n. ernest On this question I agree with Dr. Craig's position (which I believe was previously developed by Alvin Plantinga), that
"there is no world feasible for God in which all persons freely respond to His gracious initiatives and so are saved. Given the truth of certain counterfactuals of creaturely freedom, it is possible that God did not have it within His power to realize a world in which all persons freely respond affirmatively to His offer of salvation. But in His omnibenevolence, He has actualized a world containing an optimal balance between saved and unsaved."
God will not force faith--we have the free will to choose. The real bottom line on anybody who is damned is that it's their own fault. God's mercy is incredible, but it seems that some will always choose to put themselves on the throne in His place.
Yes, but note the term "freely respond". This implies to me that God awaits the free response of people to His offer of salvation. However, if God already knows a priori what this response will be, then it seems to me this argument doesn't stand. I don't want this to turn into an argument of free will vs. determinism, but I contend that if God knows, from the moment of conception, that the life He is creating will end up not accepting Him, then why create that life? In other words, why doesn't God think to Himself, "If I create this person with a set A of attributes, he will freely reject my offer of salvation; there I will create this new life with set B of attributes such that he will freely accept my offer of salvation."?
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| Shaun |
| Posted 10/24/07 at 10:49 AM | Reply with quote #41 |
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I'm still working through this issue... so I'm just thinking out loud here, but here's where I'm at. God is unfair, and it's a good thing. People accept the fact that God loves wicked people but are surprised that He would punish wicked people. Shouldn't it be the other way around? We should accept as normal that God punishes the wicked, but we should be ASTHONISHED He would go through the trouble of saving any of us! People are uncomfortable with the idea that God shows favoritism by exposing only certain people to the gospel. The conclusion I come to is, yes, God is showing favoritism, that's what a pardon is. A governor is under no obligation to pardon everyone. Rather, a governor can single out the guilty for pardon as he chooses. God is unfair, and it's good He is or we would ALL go to hell. Those who haven't accepted the pardon (or even heard it) are all still guilty. This is all uncomfortable. But comfort isn't a reason to believe or disbelieve something. I'm saying these things to raise questions, not to call out anyone as wrong. Like I said I'm still working this out on my own and I certainly don't have all the answers. But that's how I read it. |
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| kai-yan |
| Posted 10/24/07 at 11:19 AM | Reply with quote #42 |
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Craig's defense, as I understand it, is like this. The following scenario is logically possible: a) Among the feasible worlds which God can create, the world with an optimal balance between the saved and the lost is the best one. b) The actual world is just such a world--the best feasible world. c) The best feasible world, however, is not the best possible world. d) The best possible world--the world in which the number of saints enjoying eternal life is at least as many as this one, and in which no one is lost--is one which it is logically impossible for God to create. (For libertarian free will is ultimately beyond God's control.) e) For every one of those people who will be lost in the actual world, there are simply no possible circumstances in which he/she will freely choose to accept Jesus as Savior. If there were circumstances in which he would freely accept Jesus as Savior, God would have put him under such circumstances. In other words, those people who will be lost are people who would not accept Jesus' saving grace no matter which circumstances they were in. So their fate is ultimately determined by their free choice, not by any 'unfortunate circumstances' or by bad luck such as historical or geographical accidents. They are completely responsible for what they choose.
If the above scenario is logically possible, then (unless you can show that the scenario is improbable) there seem to be no reasons for thinking that God is unfair to some people who will be lost, and there seem to be no reasons that God should not create those people God foreknow will be lost.
This is Craig's defense as I understand it. Note that his defense presupposes Molinism (that there is such thing as middle knowledge, etc.).
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| shaun |
| Posted 10/24/07 at 01:23 PM | Reply with quote #43 |
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Let me throw another wrench into the works. Remember when Christ is beaten by the Roman soldiers? What does He do? He says, "Forgive them, for they know not what they do." Now, these Romans were obviously not believers. How is it then Christ can forgive them? And did this mean they were saved (for all time)? Or just that one specific sin was forgiven? I've been wrestling these topics for a year and I don't understand the bible on them at all. That's a bash on my understanding, not the bible. |
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| frank n. ernest |
| Posted 10/25/07 at 04:27 AM | Reply with quote #44 |
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Loko5, I used to wonder the same thing about why God bothers to create people who will reject Him. At some point though, I realized that that “feature” is not something that He creates at all—it’s purely a function of our free will. The fact that God foreknew that a person would develop attributes A or B does not mean that he programmed them to develop those attributes. Then I started thinking, “why is it tragic for people to be punished who are so obstinate that they refuse the best deal ever offered to anyone?” Think about it; they may be necessary to this “passion play” or whatever you want to call this incredible work of art that God has created, but the bottom line is that they shouldn’t be unduly pitied, as they chose to reject God, who is love and truth. That, of course is an attitude that should never be applied to any persons we come across in this life, as we don’t (and won’t in this life) have the knowledge to ever be sure who will and won’t change, but rather a general viewpoint on those who will wind up in hell. Shaun and Kai-yan—good stuff. Regarding "Forgive them, for they know not what they do", it’s hard to tell from Luke 23 if Jesus is referring to the others being crucifed with him, the Romans, the Sanhedrin, the crowd? The important principle (to me, anyway) is the “know not what they do” part. God is incredibly merciful to those who sin in ignorance (or I’d be long dead), but as revelation increases, so does accountability. “To those whom much is given, more will be expected.” |
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| eric |
| Posted 11/03/07 at 08:21 PM | Reply with quote #45 |
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Luke 23:34, "Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do," is a disputed verse. There are Bible translations that tell of this. Some are listed below.
NAB
| It is included in the text in brackets. A footnote states that this portion of the verse does not occur in the oldest papyrus manuscript of Luke and in other early Greek manuscripts and ancient versions of wide geographical distribution. | | | | | | NIV | It is included in the text. A footnote states that some early manuscripts do not have this sentence. | | | | RSV | It is included in the text. A footnote states that other ancient authorities omit this sentence. | TEV | It is included in the text. A footnote states that some manuscripts do not have this sentence. |
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