rsmartin Registered: 07/09/08
Posts: 2,475
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| | 08/15/09 at 06:50 PM | Reply with quote | #88 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by harvey1Quote: Originally Posted by rsmartin Exactly why should Christians NOT provide evidence or support for their arguments for God's existence? That would take more time than I have available. However, let me list a few compelling arguments:
I will explain why these arguments cannot begin to "compel"--why they simply do not convince.
Quote: 1. The universe is here either by some blind processes (atheism) or by some intentional acts to those processes (theism, deism, or pantheism depending on how we define "intention"). If the former, then there exist possible worlds where there could have been other blind processes (or algorithms) than the actual ones, or this is a necessary world. If this is a necessary world, then there exists a deist or pantheist God that brings order and structure as part of its underlying metaphysical nature. On the other hand, if there are possible worlds where a different ultimate reality with a different algorithm could have existed, then we ought to exist in an ultimate reality that was either simplest (i.e., requires the fewest lines of algorithmic code to describe that world) or the most typical (i.e., being a result obtained by a great many of these possible worlds). From the study of cellular automata we know both are not the case. There are many, many cellular automata that produce very dull worlds, and none of those worlds produce universes having any kind of sophisticated order as our own. Thus, we are justified in believing either that a theist God or pantheist God exists.
Blind Processes: According to some of the other posts, I understand that by "blind processes" you mean evolutionary processes not guided by a divine mind. I consider this a serious misnomer. Natural Selection is not "blind" at all if I correctly understand it. It is the natural tendency of nature to choose that which best serves its own purposes. For example, light-loving plants grow toward the sunlight and darkness-loving plants will thrive in dim forests.
Intention & Possible Worlds: No intention is required for this. It is natural selection working naturally the way it naturally evolved in its environment. This being the case, the argument for "possible worlds" evaporates into so much nonsense. While it is possible that there is life elsewhere in the universe, this "possible worlds" argument has nothing to do with that theory and does not apply.
All of this being the case, this is definitely no compelling argument for the existence of God. Quote: 2. The kalam argument. The universe had a beginning. The cause for its coming into existence is either personal (theism) or impersonal (pantheism or deism).
"The universe had a beginning." Thus spake William Lane Craig and the Kalam Cosmological Argument. Thus spake Genesis 1, and the Jews, Muslims, and Christians. Thus, also, spake most other humans ever to walk this earth. None of this makes it true. The truth is that none of us know.
It is a fact that the Bible tells us that life is eternal. It is also a fact that astrophysicists have come up with ideas that postulate eternalism for life. In other words, if their hypotheses turn out to be anywhere near correct, then life may not have had a beginning--at least, not in any way that humans can conceive of as a beginning. Thirteen-point-seven billion years is an awful long and incomprehensible time for human brains. If their ideas are on track, that is but a negotiable moment. And if life is eternal, then so is time because "eternal" is all about time. Thus, we don't know that the universe had a beginning. We simply don't know.
And there goes your basis for God.
Quote: 3. The world is mathematical. This is either a result of random luck, or it is because there is a metaphysical order that exists. It's very unlikely that it is due to random luck given the amount of predictive successes of mathematical physics, therefore there exists a metaphysical order that exists. This metaphysical order is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient as can be demonstrated by a few quantum experiments. Hence, we are justified in identifying this metaphysical order as God (either theistic/pantheistic/deistic).
Oh wow! This world is mathematical. How come I can find my way around, given that my brain does not get along with math? The world is more likely to be a poem than a math equation. But come to think of it, the world is a cosmic electrical charge run awry. That would explain the randomly scattered mountain ranges blocking off the shortest route to everywhere. It would also explain the extreme struggle of humans--and other species--simply to survive.
Since you are so seriously off-track on this one, what reason do I have to think you know anything about invisible, imperceptible, abstract things like God?
I have none!
Quote: 4. Either the world is caused by blind processes (atheism) or by intentional acts to those processes (i.e., theism, deism, or pantheism). If the former, and assuming the world is not necessary (see 1), then the ordering principles of nature is a brute fact. However, if it is a brute fact, then as the universe evolves it does so brute factly. However, if that's true, then there is no reason that there exist an innumerable number of opportunities to suddenly break from that stability, and evolve in a manner altogether different than its past by breaking whatever regularity was seen in previous epochs. Since the universe has not done so, we can be sure that we do not live in a brute fact world that is governed by "laws" that brute factly remain stable. Thus, we have very good reason to believe in God.
It is brute factly true that an asteroid probably struck the planet at some point in its past--my mathless brain does not have the date on the tip of its tongue. Brute factly, that would have caused a sudden change on every level of its evolution from that point on--without God....
I'm reading your statement again. I can't figure out if you're saying there was a change or there wasn't. There was a change in our planet because the dinosaurs disappeared and we--along with the other species on our planet today--eventually evolved. If you are talking about the larger universe surrounding our planet, I guess you are saying it all stayed the same throughout the millennia. The reason for that would be because universes don't change faster than that. There was some change during the life of our planet but it seems you are not acknowledging it. Again, all of this happened without God. And the explanations I came across did not include God so I don't know how your argument--whatever it is supposed to be--proves God's existence.
Quote: 5. We have no reason to believe that our place in the universe is special with respect to consciousness. That is, it seems that the universe could support and evolve intelligent life for many billions of years to come. However, based on our knowledge of the universe, the earliest supernovas did not start seeding the universe with heavier elements until a few billion years had passed. Let's say that on average the universe were not seeded with enough heavy elements for life to exist until it was 3-5 billion years old. That means that life originated on Earth within 4-6 billion years of when it could possibly have done so (i.e., on average). Hence, if we assume the universe is capable of evolving life for another 30 billion years (to be extremely conservative), that would mean that we are the firstborn of the universe. That is, the universe "child bearing" years are 3-5 billion years of age to 38-40 billion years of age. Life on earth was born when the universe was 8.5 billion years of age. Thus, of the 35-37 billion years the universe could have given birth to life, it did so here a few billion years into its child rearing years of life. By the Copernican principle, we have reasons to reject this is as random luck. Therefore, there must exist a reason for why this is the case.
There probably is a reason but you provide nothing to convince me that God is that reason. I am sure I read about it somewhere but again, we are up against math. Not to mention that numbers can be set up any way you like but numbers alone prove nothing.
Quote: The atheist answer is not very convincing. That is, there must exist a blind process for why this is so. Either we are just an extraordinarily odd phenomena, or there are possible worlds (i.e., not talking about a multiiverse) where the average age of those universes is about 8.5 billion years when life originates. However, both of these possibilities are unlikely. There is no reason to believe we are an extraordinary odd phenomena given the plentiful number of planets that are being discovered, and the processes for solar and planetary evolution appear to be stable processes that have been going on and will be going on for some time. As for the possible worlds where a 8.5 billion year age universe is when the typical universe has life originating throughout its child bearing years is not based on any observable phenomena. This would suggest that there is a natural phenomena that makes universes such as our own short lived. But, as we see, our universe has survived an additional 4.5 billion years since life originated on earth. So, there is no reason to believe that a blind process is responsible for our earth yielding life so very close to the time when our universe became a life bearing universe.
As I explained above--the processes are not "blind."
Quote: Thus, the atheist view fails miserably to account for the special position that earth has in terms of bearing life. (Btw, while there could be extraterrestrial intelligence beyond our means to detect life, the lack thereof just increases the stakes of this argument to include intelligent life. Although, I specifically formulated this argument to not depend on those things which we cannot detect at the moment.)
I think it is not so much that the atheist view fails miserabley as it is that you fail miserably to carefully examine the atheist's actual view. Please read some real science. On this topic of astrophysics I would recommend Neil DeGrasse Tyson and Stephen Weinberg. FYI, they do not agree.
Quote: 6. Either the universe is completely filled with blind causes (atheism), or it contains some intentional causes (theism, deism, pantheism). Atheists are being closed minded by rejecting the latter. To ask for evidence to support the latter, while having no evidence to accept the former (or at least, not willing to usually cite this evidence), is being extremely irresponsible in one's epistemic stance. Hence, even by the flip of a coin, the most one can be is an agnostic if they are unwilling to put up evidence to counter pantheism (which I cite since it can skirt the problem of evil -- which a lazy atheist will sometimes cite as their argument for the non-existence of God). Thus, unless atheists can provide an argument for their atheism, we are justified in believing in theism, pantheism, deism; or, in the worst case, we ought to settle for agnosticism.
Elsewhere you claim that philosophy is the best place to begin looking at the problem of God's existence. Here you accuse atheists for not providing evidence for their position. You are refusing to look at the evidence, Harvey. Philosophy may not be the best place to look. Science--all of the sciences--are the place to look. Why? Because the sciences are the study of the world, nature, and the cosmos as it exists. Philosophy is anything you make it but science operates along rigid rules of universally agree-upon scholarship.
Your claim that atheists are closed-minded re the idea that the universe contains intentional causes??? You dare say that in a thread on which an atheist pleads for Christians to provide evidence for their claims??? Please, just provide the evidence so I can see it. Prove your open-mindedness on the matter.
Oh, let's see, you will write this off as too much emotionalism. I see. I am right on the dot. Christians refuse to answer when I'm right because it threatens their world view--or conceptual system, as you say. Okay. I understand. It does take a certain level of personal strength and fortitude to stand up and face Truth. Normally, it takes more of this than God's got.
(If God existed, he would have struck me dead for writing that and I am still alive.)
Quote: 7. According to atheism, there is no intention associated with the universe (i.e., back to blind processes again). However, there is a lot of physical evidence that intention is inherent in the laws of physics (e.g., the double slit experiment, delayed choice experiment, the Zeno effect). Since we have no reason to think that intention is just an epiphenomenon of bio-chemical brain processes, but is inherent in the laws of physics, we therefore are justified in believing in the existence of a objective intention in the universe (i.e., the existence of God on some level).
This is getting rather boring. You find so many different ways of saying intention=God. But you are wrong in assuming intention vs blind processes. See #1.
Quote: 8. The constants of physics strongly suggest that they are fine-tuned for the existence of life. This is well-documented in the annals of physics. In fact, there is now a program in cosmology called the top-down approach which is now using the fine-tuning nature of the constants as a means to select which string vacuum the world emerged from. That is, first we look for the culprit vacuums that could have given birth to a universe with these very unique constants, then we identify other theoretical predictions that the vacuums of interest (or under suspicion) can provide for us to look for. If we find those observables, then we know we've found the right string vacuum that our universe originated from. Given this clear endorsement of the fine-tuning of the physical constants, we are well within our rights to say that this universe is so extremely special that it ought to cause us to give up atheism for a more plausible cosmogony (i.e., theism, deism, or pantheism).
What a backward way of explaining things. If you look carefully at the order in which things happened, you will note that first there were the physics, and then life emerged because the situation was right.
Also, do you realize how crazy you sound? In one statement (#5) you claim that our place in the universe is nothing special and in this one you claim that "our universe is so extremely special that it ought to cause us give up our atheism." Obviously, our universe is special to us because we are in it. Is it special for any other reason? If "we" can't do better than you are doing in this post, possibly having a universe containing us does not make it terribly special to an objective observer--if any exists. One thing you miserably fail to do is produce a compelling argument for the existence of God. Even a child would fail to be convinced.
Quote: 9. This argument of the mind is a very compelling argument to give up a naturalist view of the mind. It goes like this. Darwinian adaptations require the adaptation to provide its host (or its species) an advantage such that they can have more babies.
No, it doesn't. The advantage is that the strongest babies survive long enough to pass on their genes. The others die early. There is a major difference. Please take note of it.
Quote: However, if the mental is such an adaptation, then mental processes of figuring things out and having the feel of being in control of one's faculties must be efficacious. However, according to physicalism, the mental is a supervenient process that in some way emerges from the physical neurons and other structures of the brain. In fact, every mental event emerges from the physical neurons and other structures of the brain -- even those mental events that are in response to physical urges (e.g., hunger, fear, sex, thirst, etc.). This being the case, the mental is a movie screen where the movie goer doesn't actually do anything -- cannot do anything since the movie goer is just an emergent phenomena of something else happening on the physical level.
Are you being stupid for the fun of it or don't you know any better? In the post above you said you do this for fun so it's difficult to know whether you are serious here or if you are making fun of the atheist. Some of us atheists have developed to the point where we can actually control our mental apparatuses without asking God's permission. And no, we don't need storage batteries charged by God in order to operate our mental apparatuses. We are such highly developed entities that we can do it on our own. Christians could do it, too, if they weren't so preoccupied in pleasing their church leaders.
Quote: Therefore, naturalism is without an explanation for why a mental world has evolved at all since it offers no efficacious adaptation for these mental events to make possible. The only means for a Darwinist to accept this adaptation as effacious is if the mental has a downward causal influence on the physical form, but that means accepting some form of dualism of the mind. Again, this puts the mental in a new ontological category which must be anathama to atheism since the world contains intention as basic furniture of the world -- therefore favoring at least pantheism. Hence, atheism is again the loser.
Listen, Harvey, it does not take religion for a person to notice that training helps a sentient being learn new skills--be it human or animal. Just because you and I cannot lay it out in technical neurological detail does not mean nobody can--and you know it. I guess you are making fun of the atheist.
Quote: 10. This is one which I think most theists believe, but which for some unknown reason is ignored by most atheist thinkers. The world is certainly messy and such, but as any company that produces complex products can testify, the more complex the product the more that can go wrong with that product. So, even if there are a million working parts all working together in some complex fashion, even one non-working part (or a part that performs poorly), and that system will not be perfect. However, given the complexities of our world, we are much more justified in believing that our world is more like the product that is nearly perfect than a world that is run by blind processes. Now, of course natural selection and perhaps quantum vacuums, etc., have complicated this by giving us a process by which mount improbable can be climbed. I am not denying this. However, what would mount improbable actually look like if we take as our premise that the world is run by purely blind processes (i.e., if we overlook the arguments 1-9 above)?
Well, there's nothing required by mount improbable that consciousness be even possible, much less likely given our sudden emergence (afterall, in less than 15% of the age of the earth, life went from single celled organisms to space-faring organisms capable of harnassing the power of fundamental physics). There is nothing required by mount improbable that human beings literally have thousands of foods which they can eat and enjoy, great wines and beers to taste, wives and husbands and kids and families to enjoy, careers and hobbies to immerse themselves in, hundreds of potential trip destinations to enjoy, and just so many of the things that make life worth living. Now, this gets back to my point made in (1), but far beyond just having a functional algorithm that eeks out something that mount improbable succeeds at accomplishing (again, ignoring 1-9 arguments above), the world is just downright beautiful.
As I repeatedly explain above, we do not climb "mount improbable" via "blind processes." Therefore your argument falls flat....
I'm reading it again. Are you claiming that because we think our world is beautiful, there has to be a Creator? Haven't you ever heard the old saying "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder"? Our evolutionary roots are so very deep within this planet, by what evolutionary logic would we not think it was beautiful? I mean, come on, Harvey! Condescend to smell the roses, kiss a child, or romp with the puppies. Bend back your head to view the night skies, the Northern Lights, or rainbow. We're here for life and we better find it beautiful.
Quote: Anyway, that's all I have time for.
Good, because it is rather boring when all your premises work on one faulty principle, i.e. there has to be a Creator because blind processes could not have brought about [one of ten different items/issues of the natural world you chose to list]. I had hoped for something more intellectually challenging--something that has never been posted on these forums or preached about in church or written about in hymns. "God" is rather uncreative when it comes to answering deep and searching questions. __________________ It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. –Carl Sagan, Demon-Haunted World, p. 12 |
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