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SeekingTruth
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Posted 08/12/12
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#1
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If God is not a human-created concept (I don't think He is by the way, but I want to understand) why would he care about such trivialities as - for example - sex? I mean, even I can put myself above such matters in thinking, so I'm sure God does too. Monogamy, I understand. It's beneficial for humanity. I'm talking about trivialities more like the question of pre-marital sex. I find nothing wrong or sinful about having sex with my girlfriend I've been with for more than 2 years while planning on sticking together. Sure, taken to the extremes (meaning screwing around with everyone) can be destructive, diseases, emotional problems and the like, but I'm not talking about those cases. Also, why is the emphasis on staying "pure" sexually, when we are sinners already? Sex as the basic reproductive function, necessary for each and every evolved biological being surely can't be all that important for God! But it's not all just about sex (haha). This leads me to the following broader problem. Precisely because of trivialities like this, God feels like a human-created concept. Why? Because he cares about things humans would make up and care about! I can't explain it all that properly, but its a feeling I get by disattaching myself from my emotional side and looking at things from an objective outside perspective.
The basic point I'm trying to make is that its hard to reconcile an all-knowing and all-powerful unembodied mind with the fact that scripture puts an emphasis on such trivial things. Not everyone will see this and I'm sure my poor description won't help if you hadn't already thought about it, but please try.
The only view I can conjure up to solve this problem is that the Bible - while it is inspired - does not reflect God's will perfectly. But this view is hard to swallow given that it would mean there are made-up commandments in it.
Oh, and one more thing. Please try not to use the "God's ways are unpredictable" get-out-of-jail free card (or any variations of it, like God has a reason, He knows what's best on the long run, etc.) while trying to solve the problem. I dislike it because you can literally type it in to any problem posed by anyone and BOOM, it is solved. It would mean that you couldn't resort to anything else and therefore lost.
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innerbling
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Posted 08/12/12
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#2
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Love is certainly not trivial in any sense as it is the foundation wherein two or more conscious being's can function in harmony without force being the dominant factor in relationships. Or actually factor at all when love is perfect as each will serve others perfectly.
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SeekingTruth
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Posted 08/12/12
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#3
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That's exactly why I'm not talking about love.
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TheProblemOfAtheism
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Posted 08/12/12
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#4
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God gave human beings the ability to have sex. If he was so inordinately concerned about it, he wouldn't give it to us at all.
This leads me to believe God cares about sex so much as he cares about having a relationship with his people, one that includes obedience to him.
When it comes to matters like this, everyone has to be completely honest with themselves. Are you rationalizing things to justify what you want? Because ultimately God knows the heart.
So in thinking about the issue, be completely 100% honest with yourself. Acknowledge that abstinence is difficult. And that's at least part of the reason you are struggling with the issue.
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johnBee
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Posted 08/12/12
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#5
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Sometimes it helps to go back to the basics. That being said, here's a summary of why sexuality matters to God. Or should we say "under God" as He is the foundation of morality.
Quote: 6. And the woman saw that the tree was good for an eating and that it was a longing to her eyes, and the tree was desirable for causing insight, and she took from it, its fruit and she ate; and she gave also to her man with her, and he ate. 7 And the eyes of the two of them were opened, and they saw that they were nude; and they used leaves of a tree and made for themselves loin-cloths. 8. And they heard the voice of YHVH ELOHIM walking about in the garden in the breezy part of the day, and they made themselves hidden from the face of YHVH ELOHIM in the middle of the trees of the garden. 9. And YHVH ELOHIM called toward the soil-man, saying to him, “Where are you?” 10. And he said, “Your voice I heard in the garden, and I feared, because I was ashamed; and so I remained hidden.”
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SeekingTruth
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Posted 08/12/12
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#6
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Oh, that comment on my girlfriend and I was just a little side-note. But I'll give an answer. I seriously and honestly tell you that I'm not rationalizing it, I don't feel it wrong at all. I'm a 100% sure of this. I absolutely can't comprehent why should I feel this particular situation to be sinful. If I would commit adultery for example, I would feel that wrong. I don't think my moral compass is flawed, haha.
johnBee, could you elaborate on your point please? Because right now I don't understand how these passages explain it. I'm sure I'm missing something.
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Noraaron
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Posted 08/12/12
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#7
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Quote: I find nothing wrong or sinful about having sex with my girlfriend I've been with for more than 2 years while planning on sticking together. Sure, taken to the extremes (meaning screwing around with everyone) can be destructive, diseases, emotional problems and the like, but I'm not talking about those cases. Also, why is the emphasis on staying "pure" sexually, when we are sinners already? Sex as the basic reproductive function, necessary for each and every evolved biological being surely can't be all that important for God!
Well there is nothing inherently wrong with what you are doing here to start with, except for not being married.
You are monogamous and faithful to your girlfriend by the way you describe it. (if you are not you are doing wrong, and as you stated you recognise that)
Question is....is she your girlfriend?
What is it to be married? is it a certificate? is it going to the church wearing a suit?
I think recently the Catholic church (correct me if im wrong) marriage is technically now when you consumate the realtionship...im quite sure i read that somewhere...ill have to check it.
So you might be married and dont even know it? do you feel married? It could be that you are just a defacto couple, married, just not in law.
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wce505
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Posted 08/12/12
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#8
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Hey SeekingTruth, great question in your original post, I appreciate your candor in your thoughts. Although you ask, Why would a great God bother himself about such trivial details as human sex life when there is a great big universe out there and certainly more God sized things he should put his energies to?, I think a more fundamental question behind that is what is the relationship between God and sex? A great read on this topic is Sex & the Soul by Donna Freitas; she conducts a sociological study on college student’s perception of the relationship between God and sex. She looks at students at secular, catholic, and evangelical universities and through surveys, interviews, and written journal responses she unearths some fascinating discoveries and some heart-breaking stuff too. Students and secular and catholic schools feel exactly as you do, that there is no relationship between spirituality (God) and sexuality. Evangelical students on the other hand see spirituality and sexuality as intimately related. Why the difference? It has to do with worldview. Our sexual choices are processed through our understanding of how the world is. In a sobering passage in Sex & the Soul one can feel the authors own heart break and anger over youth at secular and catholic universities destroying themselves through their sexuality because they do not know how to consistently think through their sexual choices. The evangelicals she argues are the only students who think through their sexuality, a finding she was completely surprised to find. That being said, she does not argue that the evangelicals have the right worldview to process sexuality through, she was pointing out how because evangelicals do that these students are the better for it, and then she suggested that secular and catholic universities really provide some ethical framework for their students to help them instead of allowing students to continue to destroy themselves. Also, evangelicals have their own issues with sexuality too as Freitas points out, such legalism, and lack of grace in dealing with sexual sin. I’ll write more on this below. I am a Christian and I’d like to share with you why I think sex really matters to God. First, God created men and women, not only that, he also made them in his image (Gen 1:26-27). So what does that mean? Well, for starters that means humans were made for relationship. God is in relationship with himself and being made in the image of God means that we are built for and require relationship. God wants us to be in relationship to him, and in relationship with other people. Second, it means that God created and designed sex and intentionally made it pleasurable. Some Christians act like God was surprised to have discovered that sex felt good, and then was like “oh… wait… cut that out…” that it was a blunder of divine proportions. As a Christian I am so upset that we have let such an important and precious thing as sex be something that cannot be talked about. Christians need to start celebrating sex, give grace to those who have sinned, and be an example for that world of what healthy spirituality and sexuality looks like. Also in Genesis marriage is when “a man leaves his father and mother and is joined to his wife, and the two are united into one” Gen 2:24 NLT. When people have sexual intercourse they are making attachments emotionally and spiritually just like the physical attachment of a man’s penis penetrating a woman’s vagina (bet you didn’t see an Christian saying that… now did ya?) There is a physical connection that is seen, but there are also unseen emotional and spiritual connections as well. When that relationship breaks those emotional and spiritual attachments break as well and we are hurt. This is why sex is meant be enjoyed by one man and one woman married together in Christ-like affection for one another (Eph. 5:22-30). Now what is marriage? Marriage is a mutual commitment of love between one man and one woman before God and in the presence of community for encouragement, care, and accountability. A wedding is supposed to a PARTYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY and of all the toaster ovens, and blenders, and wedding cards people receive as gifts God made sure his gift topped everyone else’s, and his gift keeps on giving (talking about orgasms not children here) and gives some more (okay now the children part) and thanks to modern medical advances such as Viagra His gift doesn’t even stop working. God has given us his ideal for relationships in his word, and God wants us to be in right relationship with him and each other and sex is a big relationship issue. These are just some thoughts, and I give the scripture references there to show why I think the way that I do and I hope you’ll check them out for yourself, I’m not trying to force anything on you, but just to share. I love you brother even though I don’t know who you are and that’s why I wanted to share with you and its my prayer that you receive these words in your heart.
Peace, and blessings
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Archsage
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Posted 08/12/12
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#9
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The underlying premise behind your question is that sex is trivial. I wonder about that. Do you think of it that way? When you have sex with your girlfriend, is it a trivial thing for you to do, like greeting the mailman, or is it something much more special? I do not believe sex is trivial, nor do I believe that you think sex is trivial.
But I also think you are misunderstanding things. The only problem with having sex before your married is precisely because of the fact that you may not stick together. That is why, in the old Law, couples who had sex would then have to be married immediately afterwards. But think about it, if you are willing to have sex with your girlfriend, either you are (for all purposes) married already before God Himself within your hearts, or you are not and planning on leaving her for someone else. The first is reconcilable, because Marriage comes from God not some ceremony. The second, however, is nothing but plain promiscuity and adultery.
Sex itself is not a trivial thing. And the point is that sex is between two people committed to one another, not to whomever you fancy. If you and your girlfriend are committed to one another in your hearts before even God Himself, then aren't you already married? But if not, then you shouldn't be having sex with each other, seeing that you don't really want to be with each other. I think that for you its the former, which is why you don't feel anything wrong. Because there likely isn't anything wrong. Wrong will only come if you forsake your girlfriend for sex from another.
Surely, that isn't a trivial thing, but a point that makes sense?
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Damoksta
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Posted 08/12/12
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#10
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Quote: Originally Posted by SeekingTruth If God is not a human-created concept (I don't think He is by the way, but I want to understand) why would he care about such trivialities as - for example - sex? I mean, even I can put myself above such matters in thinking, so I'm sure God does too. Monogamy, I understand. It's beneficial for humanity. I'm talking about trivialities more like the question of pre-marital sex.
I find nothing wrong or sinful about having sex with my girlfriend I've been with for more than 2 years while planning on sticking together. Sure, taken to the extremes (meaning screwing around with everyone) can be destructive, diseases, emotional problems and the like, but I'm not talking about those cases.
Also, why is the emphasis on staying "pure" sexually, when we are sinners already? Sex as the basic reproductive function, necessary for each and every evolved biological being surely can't be all that important for God! But it's not all just about sex (haha). This leads me to the following broader problem.
Precisely because of trivialities like this, God feels like a human-created concept. Why? Because he cares about things humans would make up and care about! I can't explain it all that properly, but its a feeling I get by disattaching myself from my emotional side and looking at things from an objective outside perspective.
There are a few "hidden assumptions" that I would like to challenge 1) Sex is trivial. Contrary to Post-modern worldview, it isn't. There are good evidence that when a couple first have sex for the first time vasopressin and oxytocin are released by the body to have a velcro effect.. Tearing off of this velcro effect due to relationship break-out has lifelong emotional trauma which can have an effect on bringing up a child, stability of relationship, undermining of assessment of a suitability of a mate for life etc.
Science now suggests even non-sexual intimate contact like kissing has an effect, or the damaging effect of masturbation
In other words - to the same effect of why God prohibited the Hebrews from eating shellfish and pigs, this prohibition of pre-martial sex may very well for our own good. And just because you feel great after the endorphin rush of sex, does not make it a good thing in the long run.
2) God is not involved in designing sex as a component of humanity. This takes an awfully deistic view of humans. Is it compatible with Christian theism, where we believe in a God that creates, sustains and is involved with the universe and this God is found in Jesus Christ and the other components of the Trinity?
Quote: The basic point I'm trying to make is that its hard to reconcile an all-knowing and all-powerful unembodied mind with the fact that scripture puts an emphasis on such trivial things. Not everyone will see this and I'm sure my poor description won't help if you hadn't already thought about it, but please try.
The only view I can conjure up to solve this problem is that the Bible - while it is inspired - does not reflect God's will perfectly. But this view is hard to swallow given that it would mean there are made-up commandments in it.
How do you conclude that something is trivial? By feeling? Feelings is deceiving - just as much as someone feel that he is justified to speed on an empty highway does not make it objectively right, in as much as say tithing and offering may not make someone feel right, but is the right thing to do*
(*tithing is not necessary, but the intention of tithing in the OT was to make sure that the Levites and the priest will not go hungry. If your church has visions, debts and needs but do not have the resource to do it, one cannot, in good Biblical sense, ignore tithing by using the "cheerful giver" line)
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TheProblemOfAtheism
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Posted 08/12/12
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#11
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Damotska kudos for the velcro reading. I'm very interested in this kind of stuff.
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snoochies
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Posted 08/12/12
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#12
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My wife and I waited til marriage and spent 2 years waiting.
I don't think the question, 'Why is sex before marriage wrong' the right question to ask. I tend to ask what benefits are there in waiting.
First and foremost for us as Christians it was to glorify God and show that we could put him first and foremost. The 2 year timeout so to speak really opened up other areas for us to get to know each other better in more personal ways and really got to know each other in a more intimate way. I know I have definitely learned faithfulness during my time out, as any married man will know, there are times of drought during marriage and in todays world, these sorts of times lead men astray to find pleasure elsewhere. If I can hold out for 2 years then for me staying faithful is easy.
Personally, saving ourselves for marriage has been great for us and don't regret it one moment but that's not to say it was a piece of cake. And as I said, we didn't not have sex before marriage because it was wrong, we looked towards the benefits more so.
But I'm not going to deny or tell anyone else what to do in their relationships, for me it's a personal choice and we made ours and what anyone does or doesn't do in the bedroom isn't for me to decide.
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