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Steve_Dallas
Reply with quote #1 
I haven't listened to all of the show yet, but hearing Williamson talk made me wonder something. To me his opening statement seemed really muddled and reminded me of when I first became a Christian. Arguments against God/Christianity that at one time seemed to be powerful and persuasive, suddenly seemed more incoherent and desperate.

In this particular case he asserts that Atheism should be a default position, and says the question should be "why is there God rather than nothing?" It seems to me this is the position I've heard a lot, in particular by people that are clinging to atheism but have lost the heart to defend it. Is this a common atheistic statement being heard out there?
brady
Reply with quote #2 
Hi Steve,

The straight forward answer to your question lies in the nature of necessary being. Necessary being cannot not exist. SO, if you are really talking about God, you are talking about a being that cannot not exist. If you are talking about a being that cannot exist or does not exist, then you are not talking about God.

Now Williamson may not like that answer. You may recagnize it as a form of the ontological argument, but, as attorney's say, "he opened the door," with is question. If he doesn't like the answer, he must change the question. Perhaps something like, "does a necessary being exist?"

Please forgive the length to this answer, but here we go:

First I think we can agree that something now exists. We exist and the universe around us exists. Based on that, what can we deduce?

The next question that comes to mind is:   Given that something exists 
now, did something always exist? We may also ask whether we can know the
answer?

Fortunately there are a limited number of explanations, and we
can readily exclude several of them. Here is a list of all
possible explanations for this something that exists:

1) Something always existed. In other words, either this
something (the universe) always existed, or there was something else
that always existed from which this something is derived.

2) There was a point when nothing existed.

Let's begin a chart that will help us visualize the relationship of the option.


CHART 1.1

Something exists
|
|
-------------------------------
| |
| |
| |
A point when there Something always
was non-existence existed

We have set up what is known in logic as a disjunct. That means that
there are two options available, and if one is false, then the other
is necessarily true.

The upshot of all this is, if we can demonstrate one of the
options in our disjunct to be false, then we know that the other option
is true.

To make matters more interesting there are three options that come
under the leg of "a point when there was non-existence":

a) Everything is an illusion, and nothing really exists.

b) Something created itself. The "something" is self-caused.

c) Something that now exists is derived, or caused, or came
from nonexistence (i.e. something came from nothing).

Let's add these to our chart:


CHART 1.2

Something exists
|
|
-------------------------------
| |
| |
| |
A point when there Something always
was non-existence existed
------------------------------
| | |
| | |
| | |
All is Self-caused Something
illusion came from
non-existence


Let's examine "a point when there was non-existence," and its
three options first.

Option (a) is easy to exclude as a real possibility. Option (a)
says that nothing exists; that everything is an illusion. We have
already determined that something exists, and we know that to be
undeniably true. If something exists, then everything cannot be an
illusion. But, for the sake of argument, let's assume that
everything is an illusion. Wouldn't something have to exist to be
having an illusion? Non-existence can't have illusions, only
something that exists can have an illusion. Not only that, but the
something having the illusion must be a cognitive something. So this
possibility is self contradictory. It is logically impossible.
Scratch the first one.

Option (b) asserts that something (this something - our universe, or
perhaps something else from which this universe is derived) created
itself. However, in order to create itself, it would have to be
prior to its own existence. In other words it would have to be before
it was; it would have to be, and not be, at the same time, and in
the same sense. This is a flat out violation of the law
of non-contradiction. A logical contradiction forces us to reject this
option.

Option (c) says that something is derived from nothing. Let's
define 'Nothing.' Nothing is what we find when we look into an empty
cookie jar, there is nothing there, or no - thing there. By
nothing we mean non-existence, or a complete lack of all attributes:
No color, no shape, no size, no substance whatsoever, no attributes at
all. If something could come from nothing, this nothing would have to
at least have the attribute of being able to have something come
from it. If nothing has that attribute, nothing is not 'nothing'.
This is because the definition of 'nothing' is a complete lack of
ALL attributes, and that which we are calling 'nothing' would have
an attribute. The person who claims that something can come from
nothing is equivocating on the terms. That person is using the same
term in two different ways. The word 'nothing' means one thing at the
beginning of the argument (it means a complete lack of all
attributes), later it means something else (it means something
with at least one attribute). In other words this person is cheating
us with a semantic trick. But, we will not be fooled. Thus this third
option fails, and with it so does the entire point.

Given our above inferences, let's see what conclusion we can draw:

1) If there ever was a point when there was nothing (no existence)
and as we have already seen there would be no way to get
something from nothing, then there would be nothing now.

2) There is something now.

3) Therefore, there never was a point when there was nothing
(no existence).

Our conclusion is just another way of stating the second point of
our disjunct: Something always existed.

Now, since our universe is not always existent..... I'll let you take it from here/






Steve_Dallas
Reply with quote #3 
Wow, thanks brady, that was extremely helpful and clearly described!
brady
Reply with quote #4 
For further illumination see:

http://home.earthlink.net/~gbl111/cosmos.htm

Brady

P.S. Thank you for the kind words.



supernat
Reply with quote #5 
That's a compelling argument, Brady. Thanks!

Furthermore, I think our understanding of the existence of an eternal being is innate. We all ask the question "Where do we come from?" And those who would deny the answer God usually ask next, "Where did God come from?" Those who would deny God but assume spirituality, as in Pantheism, resort to reincarnation, and our cause is a cyclical, eternal source of always being. One who fancies himself a modern scientist eventually will study the question of the age of the universe, and must ask, or answer, "Where did the universe come from?"

Though it is hard for our temporal minds to ponder the mathematical problem of infinite existence, and the reality that God has always existed and will always exist, every person's own theory for their existence explores the simple progression of God's infinite being: "What came before me? And then before that? Well what caused that? Where did that come from?" And so, by nature, we all understand that something had to have always been here, and acknowledge the inadequacy of our own beginning, our coming into existence.
The_the
Reply with quote #6 
Personally, I find this to be a rather simple argument ( not discrediting Brady's extensive analysis in any way).

Assuming the world around me exists as I and most others do, something exists.

Can something originate or be derived out of nothing? Consider the qualities of the state of nothingness--nothing. Is it really an assumption to assume that a state of nothing  implies no potential force at all? I don't, and I find that to suggest that at least a creating force exists outside of full human/ finite comprehension( which is good enough to be a "God" isn't it?). Qualities commonly attributed to God--such as omniscience, omnipotence, all-loving, all-good--are instinctive. However, I find observation and, furthermore, analyzation to be the direct means of concluding what possible characteristics/ qualities God has.

However, the mere existence of God instead of existence out of nothing is an argument simple to the mind and valid, as far as I can see.

mrdarkbloom
Reply with quote #7 
There is no reason to logically conclude that God is a necessary being.

Necessity presupposes need. There was no need for God to come to exist. That is, God's existence wasn't conditional or contingent on anything.

The only way in which God could be called necessary is if we say that God is necessarily random. What are the chances that God would come into existence? Clearly, the same as the chances that God wouldn't.





Craig
Reply with quote #8 
Quote:

Necessity presupposes need. There was no need for God to come to exist. That is, God's existence wasn't conditional or contingent on anything.


Please re-read this....This is where you miss it.

mrdarkbloom
Reply with quote #9 
Quote:
Necessity presupposes need. There was no need for God to come to exist. That is, God's existence wasn't conditional or contingent on anything.

Please re-read this....This is where you miss it.


Sorry, but what is your argument? Can you show how God is necessary?
harvey1
Reply with quote #10 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrdarkbloom
Sorry, but what is your argument? Can you show how God is necessary?

The argument is that God is properly basic, not that God's existence is conditional or contingent. Another way to understand this is that the alternate possibility other than God is either not by itself a feasible possibility (e.g., an infinite-aged universe), or a pre-existent metaphysical reality already presupposes God as part of its metaphysical structure.

mrdarkbloom
Reply with quote #11 
Quote:
The argument is that God is properly basic, not that God's existence is conditional or contingent. Another way to understand this is that the alternate possibility other than God is either not by itself a feasible possibility (e.g., an infinite-aged universe), or a pre-existent metaphysical reality already presupposes God as part of its metaphysical structure.


Please explain what you mean by "properly basic".
harvey1
Reply with quote #12 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrdarkbloom
Please explain what you mean by "properly basic".


If a structured phenomenal world is possible, then it is only possible if God exists. If a structureless phenomenal world is possible, then it is only possible if God exists. Since both possibilities encompass all possibilities, and both require God's existence to obtain, therefore God is properly basic. This is what I mean by properly basic.
mrdarkbloom
Reply with quote #13 
Quote:
If a structured phenomenal world is possible, then it is only possible if God exists. If a structureless phenomenal world is possible, then it is only possible if God exists. Since both possibilities encompass all possibilities, and both require God's existence to obtain, therefore God is properly basic. This is what I mean by properly basic.


OK, fine.
So you think there's only one possibility that accounts for creation?
I'd like to know how you can dismiss all other possibilities.

harvey1
Reply with quote #14 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrdarkbloom
OK, fine. So you think there's only one possibility that accounts for creation? I'd like to know how you can dismiss all other possibilities.

Well, I can dismiss an infinite past origin to the universe since that would require traversing an infinite during the finite passage of time--something that I don't see as possible. This leaves a metaphysical origin to the world which, in my opinion, necessarily includes the existence of God.

mrdarkbloom
Reply with quote #15 
Quote:
This leaves a metaphysical origin to the world which, in my opinion, necessarily includes the existence of God.


I agree in as much as... if we accept there was a metaphysical origin to the universe, we necessarily have to consider the possibility of the Christian (or any other) God.

I do not agree the metaphysical truth of the universe necessarily includes God - it's neither obvious or self-evident. I haven't seen any good evidence to support this claim.

A few questions:
Is God the author of logical absolutes?
Is God bound by logical absolutes?

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