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idunno
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Posted 07/13/12 at 01:04 AM
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#16
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Some Clarification
The subconscious (SC) is chronologically prior to the conscious mind (CM) in the process that leads to an action. That's not to say, however, that the CM doesn't play a role in the decision making process as I believe Harris is suggesting in the link I included in my response to Matthias.
Looking at the work of John Dylan-Haynes, you'll see that choices are predictable by observing neuronal activity in the frontal lobes seven seconds (though I think it's even longer now) before a person is consciously aware they have made their decision.
What's not mentioned in the clip is the degree of accuracy in their predictions. It's about sixty to seventy percent.
I think the reason that they weren't able to predict the decisions with one hundred percent accuracy was due to the individuals conscious ability to vito the subconscious' decision.
So as Troy would say, the subconscious may be chronologically prior but it's not necessarily logically prior.  (at least as far as I can tell)
Now my primary focus here is the subconscious. It's clear that decisions are being planned, if not carried out, there. I've asked on what basis are these decisions made, but I know that's a poorly phrased question so I'll try to refine it.
When we consciously make decisions there's a lot of things taken into account but ultimately we make a decision because of this or that. That is, there's a reason or motivation to do what we do.
How are my subconscious' motives formed? Does my conscious play a role?
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troyjs
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Posted 07/13/12 at 02:08 AM
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#17
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I forgot the name of the poster who is trained in psychology.
I think your question has to do with cognitive psychology, idunno.
Behavourism says that we can not account for internal mental processes like introspection, or that atleast we can not communicate internal mental processes with others. Cognitive psychology says that we can do so, because we can talk about information and feedback, and perhaps our minds are like computers in the processing of information.
I really do not know what I am talking about here, but I hope someone who knows better will be frustrated enough at my attempts here, to provide a more interesting and thought-provoking answer.
kind regards
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Freecube
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Posted 07/13/12 at 02:26 AM
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#18
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Without reading the topic beyond the OP, I would say that the unconscious mind chooses a response based upon previous choices/responses and/or experiences. For example, if we have been raised by a parent that constantly tells us to look both ways before we cross the street and reprimands us every time we fail to do so, our unconscious mind will eventually entrain our head, neck, and eye muscles to look both ways without thinking about it when we come to a street crossing.
In related news, I recently put up a blog entry that might be of help here. After I read this topic, if I have more to add, I'll edit my post.
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idunno
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Posted 07/13/12 at 02:41 PM
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#19
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Thanks for the input Freecube (and the attempt Troy  ) So the subconscious isn't some foreign system that is directing us, but could be thought of us in autopilot? Why do you think Sam Harris is claiming we don't have free will?
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Freecube
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Posted 07/13/12 at 03:25 PM
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#20
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Quote: Originally Posted by idunnoThanks for the input Freecube (and the attempt Troy ) So the subconscious isn't some foreign system that is directing us, but could be thought of us in autopilot? Why do you think Sam Harris is claiming we don't have free will?
Yes, I believe that the subconscious mind functions to relieve the load of conscious processing. Given how demanding executive function is, could you imagine necessarily consciously willing every movement or action you do? I would think that we could do little more than walk or breathe--it is obviously advantageous to do those things unconsciously so we can think about, say, where we are getting our next meal. This doesn't mean, though, that we cannot consciously override unconscious actions should we choose to do so.
I couldn't tell you exactly why Harris doesn't believe in free will--I've never corresponded with him--but my guess from reading his material is he simply has not heard of newer methodological criticisms of the work he believes shows there is no free will.
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idunno
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Posted 07/13/12 at 03:45 PM
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#21
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Great. I read your blog post and it seems that the high level of predictability may be due to the person's inability to make truly choices randomly. In other words, their choices were evident because some were planning them out?
Edit. Is there a link you know of that explains how the subconscious' motives are formed?
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