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stephenmills1000
Reply with quote #1 
First, some imperitive background (special attention to where he quotes RF [indented about halfway down the page] and the couple subsequent paragraphs):
http://www.reasonablefaith.org/the-witness-of-the-holy-spirit

Can any theist testify to an experience where God's existance was revealed to them primarily through this witness of the Holy Spirit, and reinforced by apologetics?

- or -

As a theist, would you be willing to share your personal testimony in coming to believe, and your reasons for interest in apologetics?
stephenmills1000
Reply with quote #2 
I'll go first  .

My wife and I, when engaged to be married, were discussing ceremony officiant- she has a relative who is a pastor, and me, hoping for a good deal, was willing to let him marry us, without any regard for the relation of the ceremony to God.  I was a skeptic and fairly anti-Christian then, and she was a Christian (interestingly and strangely, facts that never came up until we were ready to be married), and she informed me that the pastor would not likely marry us unless we were both Christian.  "That's dumb," I thought.  However in having a deeper conversation with her and admitting I was fairly ignorant of the Bible and "whole Christian-thing," I was open to attending the pre-marital counseling the pastor required of us, if for nothing else to use it as a Bible-study and bounce questions off of him, in the name of honest inquiry.

Weeks went by, and the pastor did a great job fielding my questions, though I wasn't quite convinced God existed just yet.  I ran through the Sermon on the Mount, and was captivated by the things Jesus said, but the resurrection was out of natural reach for me.

One night, in reading the opening chapter of Genesis (a couple times over), I asked myself: where did all this stuff in the universe come from?  It seems we can just keep reducing and reducing matter sub-atomically, but never quite get to an explanation of where it came from and why.  And if this is all an accident, why do we find things within creation beautiful?  What purpose did it all serve?  It was right then, without any further research into the matters at the moment, I came to believe God must exist.

I apprehended God's existence, but Jesus' resurrection and miracles had yet to be reconciled to me, as well as the problem of evil and suffering.  Hence my turn to apologetics.  It helped me to reconcile those issues rationally, thus lending me the confidence I needed to move forward in my faith journey and worship God fully.
Lawlessone777
Reply with quote #3 
I converted when I was rather young, in my late teens early twenties. I had gone through a lot of very traumitizing things in my youth and was very angry with God. I was the typical "raging atheist", but encountered a miraculous event when I was taking a bus through America. A man sat down next to me and I struck up a conversation with him. I remember him vividly, he was this really tall bald guy with a thick Texas accent and cowboy hat. Fastforward an hour or two and I was telling this guy about how horrible my life was, how the parents that raised me had both died in horrifying circumstances, how my brothers were into drugs, and how my biological mother was close to suicide.

He asked me if I believed in God and I said no, and raged about it for a bit. Then he asked me what I needed to believe. It was a weird question, really weird, and so I asked for the most insane thing I could thing of; a video game called Lords of Magic that wasn't even being made or distrubted anymore. At the time I knew that this was my moms favourite game of all time, and if she had it she would get obsessed about it enough that she would be too distracted to commit suicide (if you knew my mom this'd make sense). The guy smiled, reached into his bag and pulled out a copy of the game. He handed it to me and went to get off the bus, as we were pulling into Toledo. Utterly dumbstruck I asked him why he was getting off here, since he said he was taking the bus to Texas. He got a confused look on his face and said. "Is that what I said? I gotta get that right." And stepped off the bus.

My mind was pretty much blown at that point, and I felt like if I didn't give my soul to Christ he would genuinely appear infront of me and slap me in the face. After that I spent a few years clumsily trying to learn about Christianity, but couldn't ask any of the Christians I raged out against because it would be too embarassing. One day I wandered into a Catholic church and poked around. The priest just waved at me and left me to my business. I picked up some bibles, tried to do the lords prayer as best I could, and finally wandered out. On my way out I saw the holy water at the entrance that Catholics use to bless themselves before entering and thought, "Isn't this that baptism thing?" So I put my finger in and touched it to my forehead, and it felt like I got hit with electricity. It was weird, and impossible to describe. My vision actually blurred and I felt like I was being struck with a lightning bolt.

After that moment I've had two dreams that were so vivid I can still remember them in perfect clarity, one that was so positive I couldn't stop thinking about it for days, and one that was so horrifying I barely slept for a week after. I've also had several instances in my life where I felt "pushed" or "talked to" while I was doing something. It's literally impossible to describe how it was, but it was like someone was telling me something, but not talking like in my ear, but rather my "insides". I know that makes no sense, but it's the only real way I can describe it.

After that my study was gradual and organic. I became rather lukewarm after that, but decided to put my faith to the test through apologetics. Doubt lead to study, and study lead to a lot less doubt. lol
hatsoff
Reply with quote #4 
Quote:
Originally Posted by stephenmills1000
One night, in reading the opening chapter of Genesis (a couple times over), I asked myself: where did all this stuff in the universe come from?  It seems we can just keep reducing and reducing matter sub-atomically, but never quite get to an explanation of where it came from and why.  And if this is all an accident, why do we find things within creation beautiful?  What purpose did it all serve?  It was right then, without any further research into the matters at the moment, I came to believe God must exist.


Looking back at this moment when you drew this conclusion, do you think it was justified?
stephenmills1000
Reply with quote #5 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hatsoff

Looking back at this moment when you drew this conclusion, do you think it was justified?


Looking back, yes, if for nothing else I was confident science may be able to explain how's, but never why's, and provide some sort of purpose for existence, as I still believe to this day.  Furthermore, it won't give us ought's, which the Sermon on the Mount provided for me at the time.

I admit I was not satisfied simply arguing "God did it somehow," subscribing to God-of-the-gaps, so I tried to see how theism, and specifically Christianity, best reconciled and justified these issues, such as the resurrection and miracles.

Excellent question!
CrashTestAuto
Reply with quote #6 
As I sort of started this by complaining it didn't happen enough here, I thought I'd say that I'll be paying attention.
KeithS
Reply with quote #7 

I became a Christian as a hard core naturalist after very skeptically but sincerely saying a salvation prayer.  There was no evidence of any change in my thinking, how I felt, the course of events in my life, or anything else, but I continued to be a (sort of) Christian, trying a different church every few months for the next couple years.  I never read the bible or prayed. I remained deeply committed to naturalism and science. I don’t know how or why I persisted in thinking I should go to church for that time. I somehow knew God existed, but had no evidence of any kind.  I wanted to know Him, but had no idea why this desire persisted in spite of my skepticism for a couple years.

A hired carpenter was working on my home helping me ready it for sale. I complemented him on his work and his reply was “that’s because I do it for Him” (pointing upward).  I immediately began asking him about his faith, what he believed, what church he attended, etc.  He invited me to his church, so I went, and began attending weekly, then three times per week.

Some weeks later I was praying alone at home when my hands started to tremble and a few second later God spoke to me in my thoughts as clearly as if it was in my ears (the content of the message isn’t relevant) , I burst into laughter, fell on the floor and spent a couple minutes rolled in laughter (the message wasn’t remotely funny). That experience, which occurred in solitude during prayer, has never happened again, was extremely out of character, and would have been very embarrassing if seen. I rarely mention it to other people.  It obliterated my belief in naturalism and transformed me from a practicing Christian to a steadfast unshakable believer.  I consider it internal proof that God exists because the experience was in extreme contrast to anything else I've experienced in my life.

Another couple of years later a skeptic said to me that nobody even knew if Jesus actually existed.  This was very unsettling, since I still have a very skeptical and logical mind.  I found Frank Turek’s site and downloaded some of the MP3s.  I launched into a study of apologetics studying it hours daily for several years now.  I recently began teaching it for my church.

The forgoing very abridged version of my testimony includes three major turning points in my faith:

1)      I’m at a loss to understand why saying the salvation prayer caused me to believe in God persistently despite my life long belief that science could explain everything and an extreme skeptical attitude about anything else paranormal or supernatural (this is a whole story by itself).  There was zero evidence that God had in any way moved in my life. I had no expectation of being blessed by God, I never thought about afterlife, and had no apparent motivation for believing.  With months between even church attendances I can’t explain why I didn’t reject the existence of God, but I couldn’t let it go.

2)      I’m a pretty humorless and science-minded person, even still.  A laughing fit was about the most outrageous and improbable thing I could imagine.  This event solidly cemented my belief in God and caused my faith to come alive.

3)      My interest in apologetics is unlike any other interest in my life. It has been more persistent, more continuous, and more natural (less conscious or planned), than any interest I had in college or any hobby I’ve had.  I gave little consideration to the ultimate use for what I was learning. The knowledge I acquired was pretty much something I enjoyed in solitude until very recently.  

I believe that each of the three events above was possibly divinely driven, though this didn't occur to me until some time after the fact.  I realize that the above testimony probably gives some people cause to dismiss me as a nut, or even demonized. I wish crashtestdummy wasn't watching this board. I hope this data is useful to someone.  Here goes, pushing "post message".

snoochies
Reply with quote #8 
I came to faith just over 10 years ago.

I was an angry atheist at the time and also suffered Bi-Polar disorder, living a life of highs and lows. I hated Christians, religion and anything to do with it. With my bi-polar I went to councelling and was on medication but nothing really helped and pretty much life seemed worthless and I just wanted out and suicidal thoughts were running rampant in my mind. For whatever reason, even though an atheist at the time I took a punt on God as I had no other option, either he was real or I'm about to take my own life and find out for sure. I just gave in and asked God if he were real to take away this pain from me cos I can't take it anymore and it was at that moment something came over me like a flood that just washed through me, I felt love, forgiveness and for the first time some hope.

I had a real medical illness that modern science could not cure but only manage but this one encounter has left me with a brand new life and since that time have not had bi-polar, no drugs or councelling. It took me months to go to a Church since I still probably had some anti-Christian thoughts lingering but when I did, I dedicated myself to the lord in public in front of strangers and that feeling I had was amplified 10 fold.

I ask now to some why I should give up on beleiving in God given how my life was transformed and also if God is not real, what was the cause?

I got into apologetics I think because of my atheistic time, as even though I had converted, I still had alot of questions. When I came to faith, I didn't start beleiving in a 7 day creation etc, but it allowed me to further open my mind.

Cheers
saibomb
Reply with quote #9 
God literally told me one day 'you gotta get baptized' and I listened to him, and the rest was history as they say. Studying theology and philosophy has not only strengthened my belief, but also changed it. Some of you on this board are aware of how dramatic that change was, but at the end of the day I am a theist so I would say my core beliefs have remained stable.

Apologetics/philosophy is interesting because it tackles the greatest questions of life "what is God?", "Does he exist?", "what is free will", etc... how can you not be interested in it? :|

Although personal experiences are very crucial for belief, they solely cannot sustain it, at least not in everyone's case. 

CrashTestAuto
Reply with quote #10 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KeithS
 

I believe that each of the three events above was possibly divinely driven, though this didn't occur to me until some time after the fact.  I realize that the above testimony probably gives some people cause to dismiss me as a nut, or even demonized. I wish crashtestdummy wasn't watching this board. I hope this data is useful to someone.  Here goes, pushing "post message".



I prefer CrashTestAuto actually Or just Crash.

I find it very interesting what you consider to be an acceptable claim to an atheist.  It seems to be:

I can't explain the universe, therefore it was created out of nothing by a personal, omnipotent, all-good, spaceless and timeless mind.  Is a perfectly academic and reasoned conclusion.

But:

God spoke to me directly, therefore I believe He exists.  Is a completely insane leap of logic.

Why is this?  The philosophy Craig presents on this site and in his lectures/debates looks completely ridiculous to me, with assumptions, contradictions, and leaps of logic piling up all over the place.  On the other hand, concluding that God exists from direct personal experience of Him seems perfectly rational.  I can't think of a better reason to believe in Him, and I think most/many atheists would probably convert had they underwent a similar experience.

Of course, having not experienced this, and with delusions being more parsimonious than gods as an explanation for other people's experience, I draw an atheistic conclusion as to what happened.  That doesn't mean that I don't respect the rationale of believing in something based on direct 'observation' of it.

This actually ties in with one of the more infuriating claims made on this site (not in this thread, or to memory by anyone in this thread).  That atheists still wouldn't believe even if God appeared directly in front of them, or rearranged the stars to send a message.  The logic seems to be that if I don't accept unsubstantiated philosophical arguments, then I won't accept basic empirical observation...
Noraaron
Reply with quote #11 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrashTestAuto

This actually ties in with one of the more infuriating claims made on this site (not in this thread, or to memory by anyone in this thread).  That atheists still wouldn't believe even if God appeared directly in front of them, or rearranged the stars to send a message.  The logic seems to be that if I don't accept unsubstantiated philosophical arguments, then I won't accept basic empirical observation...


Wasnt it you that stated once, that even if god was proven to excist you would not follow him?  

I could be mistaken....but i thought it was you who said that.

If it wasnt you....i am sure i have read alot of atheists taking this angle, and if they do, the theist is right to say that an atheist would not believe even if the stars arranged in to their name.
Michael
Reply with quote #12 
Maybe Crash has acknowledged that if God spoke to him personally, the majesty and overpowering grace of the Mighty Lion who speaks with Liam Neesons voice would be such that hhe'd have a much easier time acknowledging our responses to the problem of evil question.
CrashTestAuto
Reply with quote #13 
It was me.  I said I believe in Him if I encountered Him, that doesn't imply that I'd follow Him.  Why would it?
CrashTestAuto
Reply with quote #14 
It was me.  I said I would (possibly) believe in Him if I encountered Him, that doesn't imply that I'd follow Him.  Why would it?
KeithS
Reply with quote #15 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrashTestAuto
Quote:
Originally Posted by KeithS
 

I wish crashtestdummy wasn't watching this board. I hope this data is useful to someone.  Here goes, pushing "post message".



I prefer CrashTestAuto actually Or just Crash.

OK, how embarrassing. I don't approve of making fun of someones name. This was sincerely a goof. I owe you an apology and you have it. Sorry Crash. I have no animosity whatsoever toward you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrashTestAuto

I find it very interesting what you consider to be an acceptable claim to an atheist.  It seems to be:

I can't explain the universe, therefore it was created out of nothing by a personal, omnipotent, all-good, spaceless and timeless mind.  Is a perfectly academic and reasoned conclusion.

The above I see as a probabilistic conclusion from the state of the art in cosmology; where the scientific consensus stops, and untested hypothesis begins. Granted this is a rather fuzzy line, but one has to decide what is known and what is conjectured somehow. To conclude that the universe did not explode into being along with space-time and energy-matter requires going beyond the widely accepted facts into multiverses, string theory, and the like. The media, Scientific America to Time, love to report the newest interesting conjecture, which people often take away as fact, even though the articles mention that what they are reporting is just theoretical. Dark matter and dark energy are good examples. Dark energy, for example, is inferred to exist from the deviations in red shifts on extremely distant objects relative to the expected red shift based on the measured distances to those objects. The conclusion that the expansion of the universe is accelerating, could even be wrong. The cause could be the result of gravitational deviations, dark energy is just the favored hypothesis, but as yet not proven.  The same sort of questions come up concerning the shape of the universe; is it round, hyperbolic, or flat. The favored theory is that it is flat (not flat like a pancake, just planar), but this question isn't really settled.

Is it possible that a multiverse exists? It is possible, but to use a coined phrase, there is more actual evidence for the tooth fairy. Likewise, string theory is just a mathematical exercise at this point. I use imaginary numbers to do computations in my work, so I throw out a lot of answers that don't correspond to reality. Mathematics describes reality, but it is not reality in itself.  We don't "know" quantum mechanics, we just "know" equations that work pretty darn well, as evidenced by their ability to predict.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrashTestAuto

But:

God spoke to me directly, therefore I believe He exists.  Is a completely insane leap of logic.

Why is this?  

The presentation and the audience. 

Audience: I know that if I read the testimony I wrote on here yesterday a few years ago I'd have lost all credibility in my own eyes. As a skeptic and a naturalist, I would have assumed there was a natural explanation for what the story told. There would have been no doubt in my mind.

Presentation: There is a great deal more to the testimony than what I presented here. I presented what was salient to the question asked by the topic's author. Here is a bit more detail about the even where I heard God's voice.

If I had only perceived God's voice (internally), I'd have dismissed it as a auditory aberration. Without context it wouldn't have been meaningful. Here is more data:
  1. The message I was given used an external reference "you don't need..." rather than an internal one "I don't need...". I always think in the first person, as I hope you do.
  2. If I'd have had only had the attack of laughing, I'd have to conclude I had some kind of mental episode, albeit a pleasant one. For the record I don't have any theology about holy laughing and didn't know there was such a thing at the time when it happened to me. I very rarely  tell people that it happened to me. Mainly because not long ago I would have assumed the person was unstable rather than believe the person had a real encounter.  Nobody on here knows me personally, so I'm less uncomfortable about mentioning it.
  3. The case would be weaker also if I was not praying at the time when the laughter occurred. The prayer was different too, it was the first time I'd prayed a prayer that was entirely heartfelt prayer and thanksgiving.  
  4. There was a tie-in also with the book I was reading just prior to the prayer.
  5. The experience didn't really stop with the end of the laughter. I had a feeling of calm elation for the rest of the day.   
My point is that the little information I provided in my testimony was not terribly convincing in my opinion, and I'd have dismissed it as kooky when I was a non-believer. That's one of the reasons I decided to make this post.

Yours was a fair question, Crash.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrashTestAuto


The philosophy Craig presents on this site and in his lectures/debates looks completely ridiculous to me, with assumptions, contradictions, and leaps of logic piling up all over the place.  

There are some credentialed atheists who say Craig wins most of his debates, and give credence to at least some of Crag's arguments. I particularly like the following quote:

"I’m not the only one who thinks Craig has won nearly all his debates. For some atheists, it is rather maddening."

Commonsense Atheism's reviews of Craig's debates can be found at:


Follow links out of this honest review to enter the anti-Craig anti-Christian echo chamber of hate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrashTestAuto

On the other hand, concluding that God exists from direct personal experience of Him seems perfectly rational.  I can't think of a better reason to believe in Him, and I think most/many atheists would probably convert had they underwent a similar experience.

To my way of thinking before the conversion, such testimony would carry no weight. I agree with your concluson, however, which is why I encourage people to reach out to God. I believe God will meet people where they are if they reach out to him sincerely and in earnest.  It may not happen instantly, or dramatically (recall that there were a couple years inbetween my reaching out and an answer which erased my doubt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrashTestAuto


Of course, having not experienced this, and with delusions being more parsimonious than gods as an explanation for other people's experience, I draw an atheistic conclusion as to what happened.  That doesn't mean that I don't respect the rationale of believing in something based on direct 'observation' of it.

I completely understand your point of view in making this conclusion.

For the record, I have a lot more direct evidence than given in my testimony. There were a couple more occasions where I received very gentle directions through God's voice. One was to move from Iowa to Maine, which I did. Every time I'm obedient to God's direction he blesses me beyond all my expectations.

Other evidence for God I have directly witnessed is the not so small miracle where my wife had a very painful inherited congenital knee defect that had plagued her for years disappear instantly a moment after a prayer request.  That was a few years ago. Her mother has since had yet another surgery to correct the same problem, which her grandmother and great grandmother also had.

I have a friend who went into surgery to have a cluster of tumors removed from his vocal cords that had taken away his ability to speak. On a Friday he was set for surgery the next Monday. After prayer over the weekend, they wheeled him into surgery on Monday, a short time later the doctor came back out. The tumors were missing, but the place where they had been was still apparent. The doctor confessed he had no explanation other than the divine. The friend's voice returned. He's a salesman.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrashTestAuto

This actually ties in with one of the more infuriating claims made on this site (not in this thread, or to memory by anyone in this thread).  That atheists still wouldn't believe even if God appeared directly in front of them, or rearranged the stars to send a message.  The logic seems to be that if I don't accept unsubstantiated philosophical arguments, then I won't accept basic empirical observation...

I think it is a bit more than that, but I'm out of time. Basically, one has to be at least a bit receptive to God.
Sorry for mangling your name. It was not intentional.

Note: This post was edited extensively later the same day as the original post at 10:34 AM Eastern Time.
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