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ReasonableFaith
Reply with quote  #1 
The following is a comment by Sakkie Spangenberg regarding the debate, followed by a response by Pieter Craffert:



Conflicting views of Scripture and the world

Sakkie Spangenberg

Prof. William Lane Craig and Dr. Mike Licona use a typical fundamentalist approach to interpret the Bible and they therefore believe that the Bible is the infallible Word of God. According to this approach the Bible is inspired by God and does not contain any contradictions – period. Everything mentioned in the Bible is factually true and historically correct. They are absolutely convinced that Jonah, for instance, could and did indeed live inside a (living) fish (and in the water) for three days. They read the gospels from the same antiquated perspective and are convinced that Jesus was indeed resurrected literally, historically and physically from the dead.

Biblical scholars proved this kind of understanding of the Bible as untenable at the end of the nineteenth and the beginning of the twentieth century. The following facts brought them to the conclusion. Firstly, the Bible contains many contradictions. Consider the following examples (Cf. Barr 1977:309–311; Deist 1978:3–7):
1. There are two irreconcilable versions of creation in Genesis: Genesis 1:1–2:4a and Genesis 2:4b–3:24.
2. According to Gen. 6:19-22; 7:15 two pairs of all animals had to be taken into the Ark. However, the impure animals later approached the ark in two pairs and the pure animals in pairs of seven (Gen. 7:2
3. According to the Gospel of John, Jesus’ cleansing of the occurred at the beginning of his (recorded) activity (Joh 2:13-25), but the synoptic gospels place it much later, at the end just before his crucifixion (Mark 11:15-18; Matt 21:12-17; Luc 19:45

Secondly, scholars also discovered that the Bible contains material which was borrowed from other cultures. The most obvious examples are that of the story of the deluge also know as Noah’s story (Gen. 6-9) and that of the well-known section in the book of Proverbs (Prov 22:17–24:22). The story about the deluge correlates with the Mesopotamian version, known as the Gilgamesh narrative. This section in Proverbs was taken from an Egyptian wisdom writing, known as the Wisdom of Amenemope.

Thirdly, scholarly study made it quite clear that the Bible was written by people for people living in a specific context (which is not ours). None of the books is addressed to Christians living in the twentieth or twenty-first century. It was not directly God-inspired. He did not whisper it into human ears (or consciousness) as was previously believed or based on the so-called doctrine of inspiration, as alluded to in 2 Timothy 3:16. Biblical scholars were subsequently forced to formulate a new understanding of the Bible and its origin: the Bible is just an ordinary book, fraught with the imprints and idiosyncrasies left by the authors from whose mind it originated. James Barr (1980:88) is therefore correct when he states that biblical scholars were forced to “...build a doctrine of scripture ‘from below’ and not ‘from above’” They had to “... read it for what it itself is and what itself says, and avoid reading into it ‘the evangelical doctrine of scripture’, the opinions that some people in evangelical Protestantism held about the Bible two centuries or so ago.

These two conflicting viewpoints about the Bible were present last night during the presentations and discussions but the audience seemed to have been oblivious to it. Most of last nights’ attendees were simply not aware of all of the research and that is why Bernard McGinn (1989:539) is so critically correct in his assertion that: “The conflict of interpretations between academic readings carried on in schools of divinity and religion and in departments of English on the one hand and the mass of general readers on the other is probably greater now than ever before.”

Quite apart from the differing viewpoints about the Bible the two groups also adhere to widely divergent world views. The manner in which William Craig attempted to explain Jesus’ bodily resurrection and ascension is a case in point. It is patently unscientific (if not transparent trickery) to claim that Jesus’ body currently resides in a foreign and alien dimension of which we are totally unaware of. You simply have to accept prevailing universal world views or reject it but you cannot logically reconcile antiquated biblical perceptions with our modern world by any stretch of the imagination. We have no tacit evidence of any direct and present-day divine intervention or the occurrence of godly miracles anymore, as was generally believed to be the case during the antiquities. James Barr (1977:209) who made a thorough study of fundamentalism writes the following about this phenomenon in Christianity: “Fundamentalism is, in the end, a religion of the old world: in doctrine, in philosophy, in personal outlook it looks back to the eighteenth century”.

Literature

Barr, J. 1977. Fundamentalism. London: SCM Press.
Barr, J. 1980. The Scope and Authority of the Bible. London: SCM. (Explorations in Theology 7.)
Deist, F.E. 1978. Heuristics, Hermeneutics and Authority in the Study of Scripture. Port Elizabeth: University of Port Elizabeth. (Research Paper, C 14)
McGinn, B. 1989. Revelation, in Alter, R & Kermode, F (ed), The Literary Guide to the Bible, 523–541. London: Fontana.

-----------------------


On the debate of 12 May 

The one thing that I mostly admire in the NHN is that it provides a space for open and critical discussion. For that reason I want to respond to this debate by primarily focusing on our internal debate and only secondarily on Drs Craig and Licona.

In his response to the debate Sakkie identifies two issues: a fundamentalistic view of Scripture and world-view. He suggests that Craig and Licona operate with a fundamentalistic view of Scripture while his view is to treat the texts as narratives. Therefore, the first part of his speech consists of an analysis of the differences between the gospel narratives on the resurrection. Let me make three remarks about this point.

First, 90% of all historical sources are probably of a narrative nature (as are most testimonies in courts of law). On most historical events or court cases around the world there are different narratives about what has happened. The fact of narratives and even the fact that they different about the same event is no indication that the "event" did not take place. After all, that is what much of historiography is about, sorting out from the variety and contradictory narratives what has happened.

Second, differences between sources is no argument against the historicity or actuality of an event. The fact that the gospels differ with regard to historical detail is no argument against the reality of the event. The differences and contradictions are excellent ammunition against people like Craig and Licona with a correspondence theory of truth (i.e., if a text claim A then A actually happened).

Thirdly, it might be the case that Craig and Licona share a fundamentalistic view of Scripture (and they evidently do) but that was not the basis of their arguments. In fact, they simply treated the texts as historical sources and one could question their historical method that depends on an ethnocentric reading of the sources and a correspondence theory of truth. In their case it does equal a fundamentalistic view of Scripture but they did not rely on that. Ironically, both Sakkie and Hansie seems themselves to be caught in a fundamentalistic view of Scripture that maintains if the Bible were indeed to say that Jesus was raised form the dead, they will have to accept it as a historical fact. Let me put it in a different way: the shared assumption in the debate was that if the texts were to say that Jesus was bodily/physically resurrected, then he was bodily/physically resurrected. The one side claimed that that is indeed what the text "say" (read as historical evidence and applying the historical method, they conclude Jesus was physically resurrected) while the other side tried to show that the texts do not "say" or "teaches" that Jesus was resurrected (because if the texts were to clam that, we probably have to accept it).

Underneath this shared assumption is what Whitehead calls the fallacy of misplaced concreteness. It is to see real things where they are not or to take others’ statements as literal when they cannot be transported to our world as literal. In his second reflection above Sakkie uses the distinction between literal and metaphorical statements while the distinction between fact (logos) and myth has also been used in the debate. Generally speaking most cultures make such distinctions but not on the same basis. There are good theoretical reasons why historical Jesus scholars no longer simply assign everything that is foreign to themselves as metaphor or myth. For one, they have learned that people do live in diverse realities where things can be perceived differently. Let me explain this point from another very practical angle.

Most Christians today believe in Jesus' literal, physical and bodily resurrection; throughout history that was what most Christians believed (proven by the fact that the denial and not the confirmation of this claim has time and again lead to persecution as well as the numerous confessions and apologies to that regard). Most early Christian documents claim precisely that and almost every single New Testament book take it for granted. Paul and the Gospels explicitly state, say, teach that (and even if James does not mention the resurrection it is not difficult to show that everybody in the early church believed that; even the gnostic gospels — although they differed about the kind of body and the importance of it). That Jesus was physically and bodily raised is precisely what the texts in one way or another claim or say, what the early church believed and what they thought was real. But that is precisely where the historical issue starts. Why did they believe it and what did they think in believing it.

It is futile to try and show that the texts do not say that and that it was not real for them. They are going to beat you hands down every time you try to deny the simple fact that New Testament (and most early Christian documents) claim and believed that. Therefore, the argument that the reader plays a significant role in creating what a text say just would not fly. While it is partly true, it cannot mean that a reader can willy-nilly alter whatever is not to his/her liking. If a text promotes racism you cannot simply decide to read it mythically or metaphorically; if a text claims a physical resurrection you cannot (and I mean this in the ethical sense of "should not" because as we know, that is precisely how some do read the texts) as reader decide to read it metaphorically.

Apologists conflate what the text say or claim with what is real or what has happened (because the texts claim a physical resurrection it was also the case). In other words, because the texts claim a physical. bodily resurrection it really took place. Critics follow the same conflated logic but attack them on the wrong place, namely, they try to show that actually the texts are not claiming a physical resurrection. This has been the case for the last 200 years ever since critical scholars could no longer accept the textual and confessional claims of a bodily/physical resurrection and therefore tried to show the texts are myths, legends, deluded and the like. They do claim it and critical and historical interpretation demands an explanation precisely of that fact. To return to Sakkie’s argument: if you do not like what the texts say, it does not help to say the reader can solve it (read it away, so to speak) because a reader can determine what s/he reads.

An acceptance that people or texts in the past can claim something such as a physical resurrection or the existence of angles and demons or the evil spirits cause illness or that ancestors rule ones life, is different from accepting that all of these are in fact real or true for us (they could have been true for them). This is precisely where historical work starts because the historical questions are why do people make such a reality claim?, what did they understand them to mean?, how are we to react to such claims? To use a concrete example: Paul wrote a whole chapter in 1 Corinthians explaining what he thinks a spiritual body is (in the version of the world-view that he ascribes to it is related to the stuff that stars and angels are being made of). There was nothing metaphorical or mythical about this belief since it represents a reality view of many in his time. That is the way the world worked for them and reality was perceived and the historical question is how to deal with that in a world-view that no longer share those assumptions.

Sakkie’s second issue has to do with world-view. Ancient people did have a three tiered view of the world and that certainly played a role in the way they talked about Jesus' ascension but I am afraid this world-view has nothing to do with the resurrection stories. The stories about Jesus' resurrection are, however, fully embedded in their world-view in the sense that they took it for real because within their construction of reality (or world-view) deceased people could reemerge and that was confirmed by a variety of experiences. In fact, one can show that afterlife beliefs as well as beliefs about human beings and bodies were related to the kind of experiences that they took for granted in their world-view construction or sense of reality.

In this sense the resurrection debate is fundamentally about world-view but then about the fact that biblical people lived in a totally different view of the world (of which the three storied picture is but one element) where demons and angles were real and deceased ancestors could play a continuous role in peoples’ lives. The idea of resurrection of the body was for many one such element of that world-view (while the Greeks believed in an immortal soul inside the body (which is totally different from the idea of a body/person that will be revived). But the fact that they believed this or took it for real (either immortal souls or the possibility that bodies could be resurrected) does not make it universally true. In this sense the resurrection debate is fundamentally about world-view and not about what the texts claim. Simply put, they were fully convinced about Jesus' bodily, physical resurrection (and that is what the texts are saying) but for a historical understanding that is just the data to be dealt with. The actual issue is how to deal with alien world-views and not what the texts are saying (because it is fairly obvious what the texts are saying).

It is at this point that the poverty (if not total ignorance) of Craig and Licona’s claims about historiography and historical method is most apparent. They use historical method merely to confirm the conflated assumption that if biblical texts say or claim A, then A is a historical fact. Methodologically this is such a bankrupt view of positivistic historical method and historically a display of ignorance about what the biblical texts themselves claim. We have ample evidence that they believed Jesus was physically resurrected because of visionary experiences and that is a fascinating historical question to deal with. And it becomes even more challenging when placed in a comparative context (cross-cultural interpretation) and this is where the weakness of the apologetic position starts: theirs is simply a confirmation of a belief and no method for doing comparative historical interpretation.

I hope we can take this debate to the academic respectable place that it deserves.

Pieter Craffert

-------------------

pietervl
Reply with quote  #2 
Interesting views. I am no expert in New Testament studies, but for what it's worth here is what I think.

I appreciate the recognition about different worldviews, but I disagree with Craffert's method of letting ones worldview determine what happened in the past. The ancient people interprete an event according to their worldview. Fair enough. But what he does is interprete their experience according to modern (naturalistic) worldview. But that is applying a double standard. If separating truth from ones interpretation of an event according to one's worldview is correct (which is what he seems to endorse), then he must do that too with his own worldview. So we should look at what people's experience was and combined with the events (natural in effect, Jesus' death, burial, empty tomb etc...) suspend the apostles interpretation. If these events really happened, using historical methods, then we can see for ourselves where the evidence leads. We should not let facts be determined by our worldview but let our world view be shaped by the facts. Even if that leads to a more supernatural view of reality. If one is not open to that possibility, then one becomes locked in one's worldview bubble and we end up in mere relativism. One's worldview becomes infalsifiable.
allprorege
Reply with quote  #3 
Hello,

I have been asked by a friend of mine to write a response to Prof. Spangenberg, and post it here as well as on his own forum (in case it is removed from his forum once posted):

Prof. Spangenberg,

I’ve been following the discussion as it has proceeded in recent days, and have just a few questions.  I’m very interested in reading your thoughts, and would be most appreciative of a reply.

(1) I can understand your reticence to buy into the view that the Bible is completely correct, and the doctrine of inspiration with which that view is often associated.  But I am interested in how you would address someone who, like yourself, does not believe that the Bible is inspired, but who nevertheless believes that Jesus rose bodily from the dead.  Take, for example, Wolfhart Pannenberg: he was convinced that the gospels were composed almost entirely of legend; even so, he believed (on historical grounds) that Jesus rose bodily from the dead.  Or Pinchas Lapide, a Jewish scholar and Rabbi (and obviously therefore not a Christian): he too believed that the historical evidence warranted the belief that Jesus rose bodily from the dead.  Being non-Christians, these men were at peace with the inconsistencies in the gospel accounts that you mention; how then, would you attempt to show *them* that Jesus did not rise from the dead?

(2) Perhaps the inconsistencies in the gospel accounts pose a problem, but even so, what is to be made of Paul’s first letter to the Corinthians (which, presumably, you would acknowlege as belonging to the genuine Pauline corpus)? I well understand your inclination to view the experiences of Paul as something other than experiences of a bodily resurrected Jesus, but it certainly does seem to me that that is how *Paul* interpreted them, regardless of whether he was right in interpreting them that way. Indeed, the good news that Paul was interested in proclaiming consisted of the news that Jesus died, was buried, and was raised according to the scriptures (1 Cor. 15:1-5).  Later on in the chapter, he exhorts his readers to the effect that if Jesus had not been raised, they will not be raised either.  Are we to understand Paul’s readers as hoping for anything other than their own bodily resurrection?

(3) Suppose, again, that one acknowledges that the gospels contain numerous contradictions.  I’m having trouble seeing how this lends support to the view that those texts do not teach that Jesus rose bodily from the dead.  Surely the presence of contradictions *alone* does not preclude this interpretation. (Otherwise, one could conclude that every apparent contradiction is not to be understood literally, and therefore that *no* text in all of literature contains contradictions. Surely this is too extreme, yes?) Why not say, as Prof. Craffert does, that though the New Testament asserts that Jesus rose from the dead, it is simply *wrong* in this regard?

(4) I’m having trouble understanding this view of yours (and if I have not understood you accurately, please do correct me) that there is no one way in which a text is supposed to be interpreted (so that we need to be open to new interpretations, and the creation of new meanings).  Surely, there is one particular way in which *you* wish to be understood, isn’t there? If memory serves, you even chided Drs. Craig and Licona for misunderstanding you at some stage during the debate.  How can this be, unless there is a particular way you should be understood—a way of understanding you that Drs. Craig and Licona failed to have?

As I said, I eagerly await your reply.

Cheers,

Michael

          



JWD
Reply with quote  #4 

I am disappointed with how the Jesus Resurrection debate – especially between Mike Licona and Pieter Craffert – shakes down in the eyes of Christians at various forums around the cloud.  I’ve had personal correspondences with Mike Licona and I am a friend & colleague of Pieter Craffert.  Frankly, I’m surprised that Craffert even agreed to a “debate” in the first place. And I’m dismayed by Mike’s self-congratulatory gloating on a blog (blog.soundrezn.com) over what he sees as a victory (I’m glad you think Craffert was lousy and that you won, but doesn’t every Xtian apologist think they win? Mike??!!) – and his characterization of the “NRM” as the South African version of the Jesus Seminar.  But since I’m completely (and admittedly) unfamiliar with the New Reforming Movement in ZA, I can only guess that Licona thinks Craffert’s position(s) on the NT reflect the NRM (or “NHN”?) – and thus, the Jesus Seminar (???).  If this is the case, Licona overlooks many considerably important differences between the Jesus Seminar and Craffert.  The most obvious difference being that while the JSeminar’s operative mode is to jettison most of the gospel traditions as inauthentic, Craffert does not – and in fact, embraces all of the traditioning about Jesus as emerging from an(many) experience(s) of a historical personage.  This alone should make evangelicals like Licona happy, until one suggests that the Infancy Gospel of Thomas be included in the process.  Another important difference is the important focus on cultural difference (distance) between the biblical text and our Euro-American perspective that is so much an emphasis of Craffert’s work – as well as of the Context Group with which he is affiliated.  Thus, Craffert’s emphasis on world view and experience, particularly how ancient people from distant ancient cultures experienced reality and how they wrote about it – all of which can be corroborated cross-culturally, and is!  Ironically, what Licona seems to miss is the fact that Craffert sees him (and Craig) on the same side of the fence WITH the Jesus Seminar, forcing the culturally different stories about Jesus to be read as if they emerged in our culture, and thinking that ancient people experienced their world in the same way we experience our world.

 

My position(s) on all of this falls somewhere between Licona’s and Craffert’s, and admittedly, closer to Pieter’s.  In any event, my working with Craffert for five of the last six years has, I think, strengthened my faith in the resurrected Christ as it has helped me read and so see the NT as something (to borrow from Barth) always “strange and new.”

 

In the end, I’m of the opinion that such public debates – and the facile gloating that seems must inevitably follow – does more to harm Christianity and the Bible than it does to bear any sort of witness.

 

Blessings!

 

 

 

licona
Reply with quote  #5 

Dear JWD,

 

Jack, this is Mike Licona. You and I have had a pleasant correspondence in the past. My brief posted comments on the debate were not meant to be self-congratulatory but rather a summary of how I saw the debate. I’m not the only one who had that view, Jack. A number of people who attended the debate told me afterward that they thought I had clearly won.


I am in full agreement with you that Craffert’s views are unlike those of several prominent members of the Jesus Seminar. But that’s irrelevant to my debate comments that the NRM resembles the Jesus Seminar. Many members of the Jesus Seminar differ from one another as much as Craffert disagrees with some NRM members such as Spangenberg and Wolmarans. Accordingly, I think it was premature of you to offer a number of your critical remarks without having even viewed the debate! I encourage you to purchase a DVD of the debate when it’s available. Watch it. Then you’ll be in a better position to comment.


If you're interested in a full critique of Craffert's views pertaining to Jesus' resurrection, please see my new book scheduled to appear this November: The Resurrection of Jesus: A New Historiographical Approach (Downers Grove: IVP Academic, 2010).


Your friend,


Mike Licona

JWD
Reply with quote  #6 

Hi Mike!

 

A pleasant surprise to see you reading this.

 

As far as self-congratulations go, admittedly my seeing your comments that way likely stem from my own observations of negative experiences (especially among young people) of Christians involved in debates.  You know I am no fan of apologetic debates and even less tolerant of any claims to victory by "the victors," and especially when they are Christians.  While I can imagine you performing very well in such a debate - you are an accomplished apologist, to be sure - I can also imagine Pieter not thriving in such a context simply because he is not an apologist.  Moreover, I pay little attention to the views of others in attendance at such things - I've had many students argue for better oral presentation grades because the majority of their classmates thought they deserved it. 

 

My comments may be premature in the sense that I have not seen the debate (am frankly disappointed it must be purchased to view!), but I think instructive.  Mike, I suspect you have a large following of young Christians, many who are quite knowledgeable in historical Jesus research, and many not.  And for many of them, the descriptor "Jesus Seminar" simply equates to folks who jettison Jesus and his words and deeds from the bible.  Thus, it is not irrelevant that you point out Craffert as a founding member of NRM and then immediately associate the NRM with the Seminar.  I hope my unpacking only some of the differences between Craffert and the Seminar might portray things more clearly.  Indeed, your response to my comments are helpful.

 

In any event, I appreciate your responding to this and trust that you know I did not intend to disparage you.

 

God bless you, Mike.

 

Jack Daniels


licona
Reply with quote  #7 

Jack,

I appreciate your comments. I don’t think that my being an apologist is relevant. I was not speaking as an apologist in the debate but offering a view of the resurrection of Jesus as was Pieter. We were collegial toward one another the entire time. In fact, in my opening statement I commented that Pieter’s hypothesis was perhaps the most innovative and freshest approach to Jesus’ resurrection offered in decades. He criticized my position and I criticized his. As you know, my position is that Pieter is very much mistaken in his view that the appearances all occurred while his followers were in an altered state of consciousness (ASC). I offered several criticisms to this end during the debate. In South Africa, Pieter and other members of the NRM have a large audience from a secular media that is usually very willing to provide him a platform that rarely allows contrary views. At least, that is what I was told by numerous Christians there. Our dialogue was simply a platform where open criticism was allowed. If Pieter failed, it was not because he was not an apologist (since he is for his position) but because either (1) his arguments are flawed, (2) he’s an inexperienced debater, or (3) a combination of both.

I wanted to post the debate online with the 2-on-2 debate between Dr. Craig, myself, and Profs. Spangenberg and Wolmarans. However, most ministries have to raise funds. The ministry that brought about this week of events in South Africa is selling them in order to recuperate the large costs involved in having these events. And I completely understand and support their desire to sell the DVDs to do just that.

I doubt that either of us are desirous of having a lengthy discussion on the matter. I only offer these follow-up comments to provide further clarification.

Very Truly Yours,

Mike

JWD
Reply with quote  #8 
Mike,

Yes, thank you for your follow-up comments and further clarifications.  And, yes, I am not interested in a lengthy discussion on this forum at least.  And I hope that I have not left the impression that I think Pieter may have "failed" as you put it, or that he even needs anyone defending his position - or even the way he articulated his position.  As you can see from his response at the top of this page, he is quite comfortable with the outcome of the debate - as are you.

All the best,

Jack
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