| bdsimon |
| Posted 07/23/12 at 08:40 PM | Reply with quote #1 |
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| It is often said that the biggest difference between the theist and the atheist is the inability to see purpose or design by the atheist. The believer sees God at work and the atheist sees nothing but random noise or a series of coincidences. Either way, this is a nice story to read in light of the recent tragedies in Colorado. Before this thread quickly degrades into name calling, I would just like to say that I found this to be uplifting and although not evidence for God, a nice series of seemingly designed events. :-) |
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| rsmartin |
| Posted 07/23/12 at 10:20 PM | Reply with quote #2 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by bdsimon
It is often said that the biggest difference between the theist and the atheist is the inability to see purpose or design by the atheist.
That sounds like a Christian saying.
If guns were prohibited there would of necessity be fewer shootings. Because, after all, you need a gun to shoot. |
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| jonahbear |
| Posted 07/24/12 at 08:44 AM | Reply with quote #3 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by rsmartinQuote: Originally Posted by bdsimon
It is often said that the biggest difference between the theist and the atheist is the inability to see purpose or design by the atheist. That sounds like a Christian saying. If guns were prohibited there would of necessity be fewer shootings. Because, after all, you need a gun to shoot.
Not necessarily....I think you mentioned that you live in Canada so I presume that you are well aware of the gun registry fiasco. I am not an advocate of "bearing arms" as it is, by nature, an aggressive position which, in my opinion, only leads to pain.
However, I think there is something infinitely more fundamental to human nature that needs to be addressed here. Holmes, for example, showed signs of mental illness prior to this event apparently. When we see signs such as this, there should be a mechanism to ensure that the person in need gets committed to a facility where they can be treated. The same thing was true of the fellow who decapitated the man on the bus in Vancouver. He was showing signs of delusion and mental illness before this event. It seems that North America has forgotten about the seriousness of mental health and that it belongs in the same level of importance as physical well being. Not only does there have to be a mechanism where someone who notes the erratic behavior can notify the proper authorities but there also has to be the facilities to treat them. The Psych ward at public/private hospitals isn't cutting it. There are simply too many people with mental illness and they require special facilities to care for them (I realize that these exist but there needs to be more of them).
So I guess my little diversion is intending to point out that a restriction on guns, while still a noble pursuit, is not likely to stop events such as this. There are more significant problems that need to be dealt with first. |
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| jonahbear |
| Posted 07/24/12 at 08:54 AM | Reply with quote #4 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by bdsimonIt is often said that the biggest difference between the theist and the atheist is the inability to see purpose or design by the atheist. The believer sees God at work and the atheist sees nothing but random noise or a series of coincidences. Either way, this is a nice story to read in light of the recent tragedies in Colorado. Before this thread quickly degrades into name calling, I would just like to say that I found this to be uplifting and although not evidence for God, a nice series of seemingly designed events. :-)
Wonderful story. So nice to hear some encouragement in light of this awful tragedy. |
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| depthcharge623 |
| Posted 07/24/12 at 09:48 AM | Reply with quote #5 |
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| It is a really good story for the family. It's just tough to know that if God preveniently allowed for Peta's safety, he also preveniently allowed for the others' deaths. |
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| jonahbear |
| Posted 07/24/12 at 10:43 AM | Reply with quote #6 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by depthcharge623
It is a really good story for the family. It's just tough to know that if God preveniently allowed for Peta's safety, he also preveniently allowed for the others' deaths.
This is something that I struggle with on an intellectual level.
In what way does God interact with us? Does he never intervene? Does he sometimes intervene? Does he always intervene?
In light of some of the NT language, it would appear that prayer does call down God's power. However, we do see situations where a prayer, say, for the healing of a sick child is not answered. I suppose that the rebuttal is that we do not have enough faith for the prayer to be answered but that feels like an empty answer. There are faithful people that pray in earnest. One such instance would be for peace in our world (the tragedy being discussed is an aberration of this peace).
Here are some verses depicting the power of prayer:
Quote: Matthew 7:7 ”Ask, and it will be given to you seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. Matthew 21:22 And whatever you ask in prayer, you will receive, if you have faith.”
Noble prayers are said in earnest faith all of the time. However, we know that these 2 verses, at face value, do not appear to be true in modern times. Quote: Mark 9:29 And he said to them, “This kind cannot be driven out by anything but prayer.” Mark 11:24 Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. John 14:13-14 Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it Acts 9:40 But Peter put them all outside, and knelt down and prayed; and turning to the body he said, “Tabitha, arise.” And she opened her eyes, and when she saw Peter she sat up. Ephesians 6:18 praying at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints, Philippians 4:6-7 do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God. And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus. James 5:14-16 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another,that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working.
As we see, there is a clear claim that prayers will be answered. Obviously those prayers are for noble and Godly things.
So where have we gone wrong? Why isn't God intervening as He seems to have promised to the saints? |
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| CVanhorn |
| Posted 07/24/12 at 11:15 AM | Reply with quote #7 |
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Not that I have any actual knowledge of the situation, but I spoke with a pastor friend of mine who told me that "If necessities are what you need to survive, for the Christian, survival isn't necessary." I know that we pray for our safety of our family, friends, loved ones and ourselves but our reliance on Christ is tested a lot when tragedy strikes like in Colorado. We pray for what we want, and sometimes God grants us those prayers, but for the believer, we need to know that sometimes we will not get what we pray for and that does not mean that God is not listening to us, he has bigger plans for us. Sometimes he lets us go through trials to sanctify us and bring us closer to God. Sometimes, when tragedy hits, he uses those moments to glorify His name.
Think back to Columbine when Cassie Bernall bravely said "yes," that she believed in God and the two men killed her for her belief. It is hard for us to say that it is justified, and that it will be OK. A lot of us cried out against God asking where he was. Since that time, though, a foundation was set up in Cassie's name that has taken her example of the amazing Christian woman that she was, and now goes into schools all over the country to speak Christ's name and it has changed a lot of people's lives for the better. And when we think of Cassie we know that she is home now and better off than any of us.
Moving back to today, stories like this, and many others that have taken spotlight in the news and show us how people have moved closer to Christ. Is it easy to swallow? Absolutely not, I can not even imagine how the families of the twelve victims are feeling, and I wish them nothing but peace in this time. As a believer though, I feel that if there were no "valleys" that we go through, then there is no real reason to "trust" in God. When we walk through the valley the sheep are closer to the shepherd, and that He is here to protect us, and remind us that no matter what, things will come out for his glory.
A woman that was at the movie last Friday said that "God is always good, man is not." |
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| bdsimon |
| Posted 07/24/12 at 12:57 PM | Reply with quote #8 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by depthcharge623
It is a really good story for the family. It's just tough to know that if God preveniently allowed for Peta's safety, he also preveniently allowed for the others' deaths.
I understand your thinking here. I was thinking about her and her mom. Her mom has terminal cancer so God will most likely spare the daughter and take the mom. Yet I can not help but wonder at this defect being just right for this shot. |
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| jonahbear |
| Posted 07/24/12 at 02:09 PM | Reply with quote #9 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by bdsimonQuote: Originally Posted by depthcharge623
It is a really good story for the family. It's just tough to know that if God preveniently allowed for Peta's safety, he also preveniently allowed for the others' deaths. I understand your thinking here. I was thinking about her and her mom. Her mom has terminal cancer so God will most likely spare the daughter and take the mom. Yet I can not help but wonder at this defect being just right for this shot.
It would have to be one crazy coincidence. I would imagine that a probability model would produce an astronomical figure for the odds of this happening the way in which it did. |
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| rsmartin |
| Posted 07/24/12 at 03:09 PM | Reply with quote #10 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by jonahbearQuote: Originally Posted by rsmartinQuote: Originally Posted by bdsimon
It is often said that the biggest difference between the theist and the atheist is the inability to see purpose or design by the atheist. That sounds like a Christian saying. If guns were prohibited there would of necessity be fewer shootings. Because, after all, you need a gun to shoot. [snip] a restriction on guns, while still a noble pursuit, is not likely to stop events such as this. There are more significant problems that need to be dealt with first.
As usual, you twist what I say to make a strawman that is easily demolished.
I said "If guns were prohibited..." You say "restricted."
Pull out a dictionary and learn the difference.
Then, perhaps, we can discuss the issues raised by this difference. |
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| rsmartin |
| Posted 07/24/12 at 03:13 PM | Reply with quote #11 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by jonahbearQuote: Originally Posted by depthcharge623
It is a really good story for the family. It's just tough to know that if God preveniently allowed for Peta's safety, he also preveniently allowed for the others' deaths. This is something that I struggle with on an intellectual level. In what way does God interact with us? Does he never intervene? Does he sometimes intervene? Does he always intervene? In light of some of the NT language, it would appear that prayer does call down God's power. However, we do see situations where a prayer, say, for the healing of a sick child is not answered. I suppose that the rebuttal is that we do not have enough faith for the prayer to be answered but that feels like an empty answer. There are faithful people that pray in earnest. One such instance would be for peace in our world (the tragedy being discussed is an aberration of this peace). Here are some verses depicting the power of prayer: Quote: Matthew 7:7 ”Ask, and it will be given to you seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. Matthew 21:22 And whatever you ask in prayer, you will receive, if you have faith.” Noble prayers are said in earnest faith all of the time. However, we know that these 2 verses, at face value, do not appear to be true in modern times. Quote: Mark 9:29 And he said to them, “This kind cannot be driven out by anything but prayer.” Mark 11:24 Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. John 14:13-14 Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it Acts 9:40 But Peter put them all outside, and knelt down and prayed; and turning to the body he said, “Tabitha, arise.” And she opened her eyes, and when she saw Peter she sat up. Ephesians 6:18 praying at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints, Philippians 4:6-7 do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God. And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus. James 5:14-16 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another,that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working. As we see, there is a clear claim that prayers will be answered. Obviously those prayers are for noble and Godly things. So where have we gone wrong? Why isn't God intervening as He seems to have promised to the saints?
What a treasure trove--to have a Christian pull up all the verses and make the argument!
ANSWER: Maybe because there is no god and the stories about the saints are those times that just happened to turn out well. |
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| depthcharge623 |
| Posted 07/24/12 at 03:15 PM | Reply with quote #12 |
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rsmartin,
We can start another thread if you wish to dispute me but I find your logic to be naive.
Marijuana has been prohibited for years in the US, but is used frequently. Same with harder drugs. Clearly the prohibition of something does not effectively prevent it's use. |
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| rsmartin |
| Posted 07/24/12 at 03:22 PM | Reply with quote #13 |
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Back to the topic of this thread:
Quote: Originally Posted by bdsimon
It is often said that the biggest difference between the theist and the atheist is the inability to see purpose or design by the atheist.
I repeat: That sounds like a Christian saying.
One need only take a cursory glance at the sciences to realize that atheists see design--lots and lots of it--in human nature, in the physical make-up of bodies, in the Planet Earth, in the orbits of stars and planets of the larger universe, etc. Science depends on observing and understanding these patterns and designs. Christians want to pull these patterns and designs apart and say, "No no, there is no relationship between them."
Then they have all these bits and pieces and invent a god to put them back together again into a coherent universe. Then, of course, their god appears marvelous because he seems to have created order out of chaos. Problem is, the Christians created the chaos for their god to organize. It had been all one huge system before the Christians got a hold of it. |
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| jonahbear |
| Posted 07/24/12 at 03:25 PM | Reply with quote #14 |
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Quote: As usual, you twist what I say to make a strawman that is easily demolished.
I said "If guns were prohibited..." You say "restricted."
Pull out a dictionary and learn the difference.
Then, perhaps, we can discuss the issues raised by this difference.
The same thing applies, RS.
Remember the prohibition of alcohol in the 30's during the Capone era? That didn't work out too well either did it?
Prohibition or any other type of restrictive laws are not the ultimate solution to the problem of violence. |
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| jonahbear |
| Posted 07/24/12 at 03:29 PM | Reply with quote #15 |
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Quote: What a treasure trove--to have a Christian pull up all the verses and make the argument!
See RS, that is because the Christian faith is not afraid to be questioned. It does not need to retreat to a combattive and defensive shell.
Come let us reason together.
Quote: ANSWER: Maybe because there is no god and the stories about the saints are those times that just happened to turn out well.
Or maybe, just maybe, the answer cannot be fleshed out in one sentence.
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