|  New Posts
 
 
 


Reply
 
Author Comment
 
Godboy
Reply with quote #31 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid
Where did this consciousness come from? Doesn't sound very plausible or simple to me.

To be a good explanation for something, you don't need an explanation for the explanation.  Even if we couldn't explain where God came from, that would not undermine God's explanatory power with respect to the fine-tuning of the universe.

Have you read any scientists who have stated otherwise?

Quote:
But that is besides the point, again, you've just made a claim here, a speculation. This thread is about whether you can actually provide physical evidence for the claim itself.

We don't have direct, physical evidence of the Big Bang; none of us were around to see it happen.  However, we do have such evidence of things that are true if the Big Bang happened, such as the CMBR, galaxy seeds and galactic red shifts.  

In the same way, even if we had no direct, physical evidence of God, we could observe certain facts about the world that are better explained by intelligent design than not; for example, intelligent design would resolve the flatness problem.

Quote:
Some nonsense just needs to be underlined.

Wow.  What a brilliant response.  Just post an emote and declare, with no qualification, that a certain claim is nonsense!


Godboy
Reply with quote #32 
Quote:
Originally Posted by scepticalguy
Sorry but the one argument i find even more absurd than the gaps argument is the "god did it that way" argument, in fact all it is really is just the ultimate gap argument.

No, a gap argument is to say that God explains x because we do not know what else explains x.  

To say that God did something a certain way is to say that you already know that God exists and that what we learn about the world informs us about what we already know that God did.
scepticalguy
Reply with quote #33 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Godboy
Quote:
Originally Posted by scepticalguy
Sorry but the one argument i find even more absurd than the gaps argument is the "god did it that way" argument, in fact all it is really is just the ultimate gap argument.

No, a gap argument is to say that God explains x because we do not know what else explains x.  

To say that God did something a certain way is to say that you already know that God exists and that what we learn about the world informs us about what we already know that God did.


Its a gap argument, its just that god has been moved into a gap that is expressly said to be beyond our ability to research or examine.

"Even if you explain everything god still did it that way but from a place and via means you cannot test or examine EVER" is about as pathetic of a argument as you can get.
lionofjudah
Reply with quote #34 
Quote:
I think all of these can be tested by experimentation 

I agree. But God can't be. The constants of nature are evidence for the constants of nature. The big bang is evidence for the big bang.

WLC may use empirical evidence to argue for God, but he can't provide any direct physical evidence for God. 

Also you destroyed the formatting of this thread with your copy-and-paste defintion, lion. lol

Quote:
Those are arguments, speculations. Not evidence. 

The evidence for the big bang is evidence for the big bang, the constants of the universe are observations of the constants of the universe, arrived at via the scientific method. 

Merely attributing these facts of nature to god is not actually physical evidence for the existence of god and not sufficient to lay the scientific ground work for anything like a theory of creation to sit on par with other scientific theories. 

I don't agree at all. Fine tuning is evidence for a designer the Big Bang is evidence for a maker or causer. Propositions imply other propositions that are equally as valid. For example, the hardness off a rock implies that a rock is not a liquid. Its an implicit conclusion that is implied in the statement. The proposition "the universe is fine tuned" I argue implies that the universe is designed. Or, that the Big Bang occurred implies that it was caused by an immaterial casually efficient personal being. So this scientific evidence is indeed evidence for God. 


Satarack
Reply with quote #35 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid
Disbelief justified in this case. 

Not so fast there.  Your judgement is predicated on a contradiction, which leaves you unjustified.

Now, people have mentioned a variety of deductive arguments for the existence of God (Ontological, Cosmological, Teleological, etc).  In response you said the following.

Quote:
Those are arguments, speculations. Not evidence.

Which shows you hold to some form of empiricism/scientism.  But if that's the case then your reason for rejecting the deductive arguments for God is unjustified.  After all, there is no scientific evidence to show that only scientific evidence is real evidence.
Godboy
Reply with quote #36 
Quote:
Originally Posted by scepticalguy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Godboy
Quote:
Originally Posted by scepticalguy
Sorry but the one argument i find even more absurd than the gaps argument is the "god did it that way" argument, in fact all it is really is just the ultimate gap argument.

No, a gap argument is to say that God explains x because we do not know what else explains x.  

To say that God did something a certain way is to say that you already know that God exists and that what we learn about the world informs us about what we already know that God did.


Its a gap argument, its just that god has been moved into a gap that is expressly said to be beyond our ability to research or examine.

"Even if you explain everything god still did it that way but from a place and via means you cannot test or examine EVER" is about as pathetic of a argument as you can get.

So I can't know who made a chocolate cake unless I know how it's made?  

Moreover, if I do know who made the cake, and I go to culinary school and learn how to make one myself, do I not learn how the cake-maker did it?
Raymond1
Reply with quote #37 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid
We all know what the scientific method entails, and we all know upon what basis we can accept scientific theories. 

I will assume that no one here doubts scientific theories like gravity, evolution, atomic, quantum, germ, cell etc

So I'd like to offer the christians here the chance to provide scientific evidence for an intelligent entity that created the universe. 

If the evidence is strong enough in nature then there is no reason why we could not also have a theory of creation to go along with other empirical theories like gravity. It would demonstrate existence of this creator, describe it's behavior and provide a detailed scientific account of the process by which it created this universe. 

If there is no hard scientific evidence of a creator, but you still feel there are compelling reasons to believe that such a thing exists, then please inform me. We can go into those reasons perhaps in another thread. But for the sake of clarity let us stick to the issue of empiricism, observation, experimentation and predictive power here, i.e the scientific method. 

Look forward to replies. 

Well, there is no such thing as "The Scientific Method", there is no single- clear cut procedure that is used by science alone.

Secondly,  I'd like someone to define Science.
scepticalguy
Reply with quote #38 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Godboy

So I can't know who made a chocolate cake unless I know how it's made?  

Moreover, if I do know who made the cake, and I go to culinary school and learn how to make one myself, do I not learn how the cake-maker did it?


Is this supposed to be a argument for something because it reads like ignorant waffling?
sk3ptic
Reply with quote #39 
Quote:
Originally Posted by scepticalguy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Godboy
Quote:
Originally Posted by scepticalguy
Sorry but the one argument i find even more absurd than the gaps argument is the "god did it that way" argument, in fact all it is really is just the ultimate gap argument.

No, a gap argument is to say that God explains x because we do not know what else explains x.  

To say that God did something a certain way is to say that you already know that God exists and that what we learn about the world informs us about what we already know that God did.



Its a gap argument, its just that god has been moved into a gap that is expressly said to be beyond our ability to research or examine.

"Even if you explain everything god still did it that way but from a place and via means you cannot test or examine EVER" is about as pathetic of a argument as you can get.

I'm glad you brought up the topic of "God of the gaps." I'm just offering this to you as some helpful advice. You can take it or leave it, but I do recommend you read this paper:

http://www.newdualism.org/papers/R.Larmer/Gaps.htm

When you (that is, everyone following this discussion--not just scepticalguy!) have finished reading the above paper I would like a response to the following rewording of the opening post:

We all know what the scientific method entails, and we all know upon what basis we can accept scientific theories.

I will assume that no one here doubts scientific theories like gravity, evolution, atomic, quantum, germ, cell etc

So I'd like to offer the atheists here the chance to provide scientific evidence for String Theory

If the evidence is strong enough in nature then there is no reason why we could not also have a multiverse to go along with other empirical theories like gravity. It would demonstrate existence of this multiverse, describe it's behavior and provide a detailed scientific account of the detectable, verifiable universe.

If there is no hard scientific evidence of a multiverse, but you still feel there are compelling reasons to believe that such a thing exists, then please inform me. We can go into those reasons perhaps in another thread. But for the sake of clarity let us stick to the issue of empiricism, observation, experimentation and predictive power here, i.e the scientific method.

Look forward to replies.
scepticalguy
Reply with quote #40 
Quote:
So I'd like to offer the atheists here the chance to provide scientific evidence for String Theory


I will read the paper however i think that the calling of string theory a theory is premature and does science no favors as at this point at best it is a hypothesis.

Oh and we already know there are things we lack in regards to
the theories of gravity, atomic, quantum etc but as yet they are the best explanation for all the facts we do have for the phenominons they describe.

Godboy
Reply with quote #41 
Quote:
Originally Posted by scepticalguy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Godboy

So I can't know who made a chocolate cake unless I know how it's made?  

Moreover, if I do know who made the cake, and I go to culinary school and learn how to make one myself, do I not learn how the cake-maker did it?


Is this supposed to be a argument for something because it reads like ignorant waffling?

It's showing, by way of a more pedestrian example, that your logic is skewed.
scepticalguy
Reply with quote #42 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Godboy

It's showing, by way of a more pedestrian example, that your logic is skewed.


Nonsense shows nothing other than the person speaking it has lost track of his senses or is a liar.
sk3ptic
Reply with quote #43 

Quote:
Originally Posted by scepticalguy
Quote:
So I'd like to offer the atheists here the chance to provide scientific evidence for String Theory


I will read the paper however i think that the calling of string theory a theory is premature and does science no favors as at this point at best it is a hypothesis.

Oh and we already know there are things we lack in regards to
the theories of gravity, atomic, quantum etc but as yet they are the best explanation for all the facts we do have for the phenominons they describe.

Actually you can't really call String Theory an hypothesis. A scientific hypothesis is usually:

Testable. String Theory is neither testable nor verifiable.

Parsimonious (Occam's Razor), that is, it discourages postulating an excessive number of entities. String Theory postulates 10^300, 10^500, maybe even an infinite number of universes to explain how our universe--the detectable, verifiable universe-- came to be.

Scope, fruitfullness, Conservatism. Actually I don't need to go any further. I think you get the picture.

String Theory cannot properly be called a "theory." According to Stephen Hawking,  a "theory is a good theory if it satisfies two requirements: It must accurately describe a large class of observations on the basis of a model that contains only a few arbitrary elements, and it must make definite predictions about the results of future observations." Hawking further says, "any physical theory is always provisional, in the sense that it is only a hypothesis; you can never prove it. No matter how many times the results of experiments agree with some theory, you can never be sure that the next time the result will not contradict the theory. On the other hand, you can disprove a theory by finding even a single observation that disagrees with the predictions of the theory."

A theory is falsifiable and makes predictions. It is physically impossible to detect another universe among the multitude of universes so, String Theory cannot be falsified. String Theory makes few if any predictions.

Scientsts can and do pursue such forms of inquiry as String Theory and Everette's Many Worlds Interpretation (also unfalsifiable and makes few if any predictions). Such forms of inquiry are useful but could hardly be considered scientific.

This is why I reworded the opening post to make the same demand of String Theory that Lucid makes of God. It demonstrates that Lucid's opening post is a fallacy of relevance called "Special Pleading."

The opening post demands greater intellectual or scientific rigor regarding God than it demands of any other kind of pursuit of human knowledge or other forms of intellectual or scientific inquiry such as String Theory or Everette's Many Worlds Interpretation.


sk3ptic
Reply with quote #44 

Here's an exerpt from Antony Flew:

Quote:

Opposed to the idea of divine design is the theory of the
multiverse. (I shall argue, however, that the existence of a
multiverse still does not eliminate the question of a divine
Source.) One of the most prominent proponents of the
multiverse is cosmologist Martin Rees. Rees observes:

   Any universe hospitable to life—what we might
   call a biophilic universe—has to be “adjusted” in a
   particular way. The prerequisites for any life of the
   kind we know about—long-lived stable stars, stable
   atoms such as carbon, oxygen and silicon, able to
   combine into complex molecules, etc.—are sensi-
   tive to the physical laws and to the size, expansion
   rate and contents of the universe.4

This could be explained, he says, by the hypothesis that
there are many “universes” with different laws and physi-
cal constants, and ours happens to be one belonging to a
subset of universes that are conducive to the appearance
of complexity and consciousness. If this is the case, fine
tuning would not be surprising.
   Rees mentions the most influential variations of
the multiverse idea. In the “eternal inflationary” idea of
cosmologists Andrei Linde and Alex Vilenkin, universes
emerge from individual big bangs with space-time dimen-
sions entirely different from those of the universe we know.
The black hole thesis of Alan Guth, David Harrison, and
Lee Smolin holds that universes materialize from black
holes in mutually inaccessible space-time domains. Finally,
Lisa Randall and Raman Sundrum propose that there are
universes in different spatial dimensions that may or may
not interact gravitationally with each other. Rees points
out that these multiverse ideas are “highly speculative” and
require a theory that consistently describes the physics of
ultrahigh densities, the configuration of structures on extra
dimensions, and so forth. He notes that only one of them
can be right. And, in fact, he adds, “Quite possibly none is:
there are alternative theories that would lead just to one
universe.”5


A BLUNDERBUSS THEORY

Both Paul Davies and Richard Swinburne reject the multi-
verse idea. Davies, a physicist and cosmologist, writes that
“it is trivially true that, in an infinite universe, anything
that can happen will happen.” But this is not an explana-
tion at all. If we are trying to understand why the universe
is bio-friendly, we are not helped by being told that all pos-
sible universes exist. “Like a blunderbuss, it explains every-
thing and nothing.” By this he means that it is a vacuous
claim. If we say that the world and everything in it came
into being five minutes ago complete with our memories
of living for many years and evidence of events occurring
thousands of years ago, then our claim cannot be refuted.
It explains everything and yet nothing.
   A true scientific explanation, says Davies, is like a sin-
gle well-aimed bullet. The idea of a multiverse replaces
the rationally ordered real world with an infinitely complex
charade and makes the whole idea of “explanation” mean-
ingless.6 Swinburne is just as strong in his disdain for the
multiverse explanation: “It is crazy to postulate a trillion
(causally unconnected) universes to explain the features
of one universe, when postulating one entity (God) will do
the job.”7
   Three things might be said concerning the arguments
about fine tuning. First, it is a hard fact that we live in a
universe with certain laws and constants, and life would
not have been possible if some of these laws and constants
had been different. Second, the fact that the existing laws
and constants allow the survival of life does not answer the
question of the origin of life. This is a very different ques-
tion, as I will try to show; these conditions are necessary
for life to arise, but not sufficient. Third, the fact that it
is logically possible that there are multiple universes with
their own laws of nature does not show that such universes
do exist. There is currently no evidence in support of a
multiverse. It remains a speculative idea.
   What is especially important here is the fact that the
existence of a multiverse does not explain the origin of the
laws of nature. Martin Rees suggests that the existence of
different universes with their own laws raises the question
of the laws governing the entire multiverse, the overarch-
ing theory governing the ensemble. “The underlying laws
governing the entire multiverse may allow variety among the
universes,” he writes. “Some of what we call ‘laws of nature’
may in this grander perspective be local bylaws, consistent
with some overarching theory governing the ensemble, but
not uniquely fixed by that theory.”8
      To ask how the laws governing the multiverse originated
is the same as asking for the origin of the laws of nature in
general. Paul Davies notes:

      Multiverse proponents are often vague about how
      the parameter values are chosen across the defined
      ensemble. If there is a “law of laws” describing how
      parameter values are assigned as one slips from one
      universe to the next, then we have only shifted the
      problem of cosmic biophilicity up one level. Why?
      First, because we need to explain where the law of
      laws comes from.9

      Some have said that the laws of nature are simply acci-
dental results of the way the universe cooled after the big
bang. But, as Rees has pointed out, even such accidents
can be regarded as secondary manifestations of deeper
laws governing the ensemble of universes. Again, even the
evolution of the laws of nature and changes to the con-
stants follow certain laws. “We’re still left with the ques-
tion of how these ‘deeper’ laws originated. No matter how
far you push back the properties of the universe as some-
how ‘emergent,’ their very emergence has to follow certain
prior laws.”10
    So multiverse or not, we still have to come to terms
with the origin of the laws of nature. And the only viable
explanation here is the divine Mind.


http://www.epubbud.com/read.php?g=UKJ6WX28&p=13

lucid
Reply with quote #45 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lapwing

The OP betrays mistaken thinking about God and religion. Science simply tells us how God created the world. 



Care to provide some physical evidence for that presumption? 
Previous Topic | Next Topic
Print
Reply

Quick Navigation:



Important: The Reasonable Faith forums have moved to: www.reasonablefaith.org/forums/






Powered by Website Toolbox - Create a Website Forum Hosting, Guestbook Hosting, or Website Chat Room for your website.