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einstein89
Reply with quote  #1 
In Russell's own words:

Quote:
Many orthodox people speak as though it were the business of sceptics to disprove received dogmas rather than of dogmatists to prove them. This is, of course, a mistake. If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time.


Quote:
I ought to call myself an agnostic; but, for all practical purposes, I am an atheist. I do not think the existence of the Christian God any more probable than the existence of the Gods of Olympus or Valhalla. To take another illustration: nobody can prove that there is not between the Earth and Mars a china teapot revolving in an elliptical orbit, but nobody thinks this sufficiently likely to be taken into account in practice. I think the Christian God just as unlikely.


Let me ask you, fellow posters, the same question. Imagine a teapot orbiting the Sun, between Earth and Mars. There is no evidence for such a teapot. Are you agnostic towards the matter, or are you non-believing?

To me, I can be as certain as I am that I exist that there is no teapot orbiting the Sun, so I strongly believe that the teapot does not exist.

If one is to remain agnostic about such a ludicrous claim, what level of certainty do you require to believe a proposition to be true?

Are we to be demanded a burden of proof for our belief that the teapot does not exist, and why? 


innerbling
Reply with quote  #2 
The Russell's teapot is only relevant when the atheist has demonstrated she can have a coherent worldview with non-arbitrary epistemic system and ontology without God. That is Russell's mistake was to assume that he can have reasonable worldview without God.
Cata
Reply with quote  #3 
If we know how a teapot comes into existence, then there is a lot of evidence against a teapot orbiting the sun.

-Teapots originate from Earth.
-No structure has ever been constructed with the capability of launching a teapot out of Earth's orbit.
-Therefore, no teapot could exist orbiting between the Earth and Mars.

If we are talking about a teapot-shaped asteroid, then that's perfectly plausible if it were the size of a teapot.
If it were a large one though, asteroids too big can only be spheres due to gravity, so a teapot-shaped asteroid would be unlikely.


Russel's teapot has no logical force--it's just a false analogy.
innerbling
Reply with quote  #4 
I find Russell's teapot to be a bit of ironic example of arbitrariness as it was Russell himself who demonstrated impossibility of non-arbitrary empirical induction in which his own epistemic system relied.
CrashTestAuto
Reply with quote  #5 
Quote:
Originally Posted by innerbling
The Russell's teapot is only relevant when the atheist has demonstrated she can have a coherent worldview with non-arbitrary epistemic system and ontology without God. That is Russell's mistake was to assume that he can have reasonable worldview without God.


Theism is no less arbitrary than non-theism in terms of epistemology.  It's just more circular.


1) God exists.
2) If God exists then I can be sure of things.
3) From 1 and 2, I can be sure of things.
4) I'm sure God exists.
5) ?????

Therefore: God exists.

That's actually the most sensible formulation I can come up with.
einstein89
Reply with quote  #6 
Are any of the theists here willing to actually answer the question about the teapot, and not why they think it doesn't apply to their favorite God? 
Cata
Reply with quote  #7 
What, my posts are invisible now?
innerbling
Reply with quote  #8 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrashtestAuto
1) God exists.
2) If God exists then I can be sure of things.
3) From 1 and 2, I can be sure of things.
4) I'm sure God exists.
5) ?????


No this would be false and even if correct would not help you as you still lack demonstration of the coherence of your own epistemic system.

TAG argument would be closer to this:

1. Loving God does not exist
2. There is no revelation, inherent prior or meta knowledge
3. We have no knowledge

We have knowledge hence 1, 2 and 3 are false.

All you have to do to refute this argument is to demonstrate a coherent and non-arbitrary atheistic epistemic system which would refute premise 3.

Now also you accuse me of circularity how are the premises circular to you?
innerbling
Reply with quote  #9 
Quote:
Are any of the theists here willing to actually answer the question about the teapot, and not why they think it doesn't apply to their favorite God? 


The problem with this is that I already demonstrated the folly of this argument. It is just begging the question for rationality of non-theism without actually demonstrating anything.

That is where is your argument for rationality and coherence of your worldview?
Now you might say that you do not need "teapot's or any god's" for rationality but then you would have to actually demonstrate this claim.
einstein89
Reply with quote  #10 
still waiting for a single theist so say either 'I believe the teapot doesn't exist' or 'I am agnostic on the teapot'.
einstein89
Reply with quote  #11 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cata
What, my posts are invisible now?


Might as well be. Do you believe that such a teapot doesn't exist? If not, why?
lucid
Reply with quote  #12 
Quote:
Originally Posted by innerbling
The Russell's teapot is only relevant when the atheist has demonstrated she can have a coherent worldview with non-arbitrary epistemic system and ontology without God. That is Russell's mistake was to assume that he can have reasonable worldview without God.


Err, yes. We can be reasonable without god. 

Now do you believe in the teapot or no? 


innerbling
Reply with quote  #13 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid
Err, yes. We can be reasonable without god.


With what epistemology and ontology? And what is your justification for that claim?
Michael
Reply with quote  #14 
Quote:
Originally Posted by einstein89
Let me ask you, fellow posters, the same question. Imagine a teapot orbiting the Sun, between Earth and Mars. There is no evidence for such a teapot. Are you agnostic towards the matter, or are you non-believing?

To me, I can be as certain as I am that I exist that there is no teapot orbiting the Sun, so I strongly believe that the teapot does not exist.


Same again. I would classify myself as an atheist in regards to the teapot, using the etymological definition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by einstein89
If one is to remain agnostic about such a ludicrous claim, what level of certainty do you require to believe a proposition to be true?


For the assertion to be logically valid and shown to be necessarily true. (By necessarily true, I mean that theists claim that only a conscious creator could begin a sequence of events, or create the universe).

Quote:
Originally Posted by einstein89
Are we to be demanded a burden of proof for our belief that the teapot does not exist, and why?


The teapot assertion is arbitrary, rather than logically necessary, thus I don't believe I need a burden of proof for saying it is false in the absense of affirmatory evidence.
innerbling
Reply with quote  #15 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael
The teapot assertion is arbitrary, rather than logically necessary, thus I don't believe I need a burden of proof for saying it is false in the absense of affirmatory evidence.


Yes well put and furthermore the big pink elephant in the room is the fact that this argument just takes for granted that worldview without God is/can be rational i.e. is begging the question.
Also it is quite clear that ontology and epistemology cannot be contingent from this teapot, but is from Christian God hence the argument is also a straw-man.
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