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Satarack
Reply with quote  #46 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid
Philosophy is not evidence I'm afraid.  

And what evidence do you have for that?  I've already asked you several times to provide scientific evidence to support why only scientific evidence should be permitted.  Until you do that, nobody here is required to meet your demand.  Either accept the evidence we give you or not, but evidence it remains.
lucid
Reply with quote  #47 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Satarack
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid
Philosophy is not evidence I'm afraid.  

And what evidence do you have for that?  I've already asked you several times to provide scientific evidence to support why only scientific evidence should be permitted.  Until you do that, nobody here is required to meet your demand.  Either accept the evidence we give you or not, but evidence it remains.

Oh no, you can call it evidence if you so wish. You can call your auntie your uncle if it makes you happy. But it ain't necessarily so. 

What you are conceding is that you can't provide any scientific evidence in the first place for any of your claims. So we can leave it there I guess.

As far as philosophy is concerned, there are "muslim philosophers" who use just the same kinds of "evidence" as you to "prove" the existence of allah. It's a game. 

Scientists have a little more objective, less arbitrary way of answering questions and making claims. If you can't rise to that standard, then you can stay in the sandbox with all your religious buddies 
Satarack
Reply with quote  #48 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Satarack
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid
Philosophy is not evidence I'm afraid.  

And what evidence do you have for that?  I've already asked you several times to provide scientific evidence to support why only scientific evidence should be permitted.  Until you do that, nobody here is required to meet your demand.  Either accept the evidence we give you or not, but evidence it remains.

Oh no, you can call it evidence if you so wish. You can call your auntie your uncle if it makes you happy. But it ain't necessarily so. 

What you are conceding is that you can't provide any scientific evidence in the first place for any of your claims. So we can leave it there I guess.

As far as philosophy is concerned, there are "muslim philosophers" who use just the same kinds of "evidence" as you to "prove" the existence of allah. It's a game. 

Scientists have a little more objective, less arbitrary way of answering questions and making claims. If you can't rise to that standard, then you can stay in the sandbox with all your religious buddies 

You're hiding behind rhetoric.  Why are you cowering behind words?  Rise to the standard?  You can't even meet your own standard, that is why I called you a hypocrite.  Maybe you should rise to your own standard and support it with scientific evidence.

Also, it's largely been disproven that Scientific evidence is completely objective, it is impossible to separate the observer's bias from the act of observation.  In deciding to make an observation, you implicitly must have already had a preconception of that which you are planning to observe, otherwise you would never have known about that thing to ever think about observing it.

But that is not, and never has been, a discount against Science.  It is simply one of the limitations of the scientific process.
lucid
Reply with quote  #49 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Satarack
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Satarack
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid
Philosophy is not evidence I'm afraid.  

And what evidence do you have for that?  I've already asked you several times to provide scientific evidence to support why only scientific evidence should be permitted.  Until you do that, nobody here is required to meet your demand.  Either accept the evidence we give you or not, but evidence it remains.

Oh no, you can call it evidence if you so wish. You can call your auntie your uncle if it makes you happy. But it ain't necessarily so. 

What you are conceding is that you can't provide any scientific evidence in the first place for any of your claims. So we can leave it there I guess.

As far as philosophy is concerned, there are "muslim philosophers" who use just the same kinds of "evidence" as you to "prove" the existence of allah. It's a game. 

Scientists have a little more objective, less arbitrary way of answering questions and making claims. If you can't rise to that standard, then you can stay in the sandbox with all your religious buddies 

You're hiding behind rhetoric.  Why are you cowering behind words?  Rise to the standard?  You can't even meet your own standard, that is why I called you a hypocrite.  Maybe you should rise to your own standard and support it with scientific evidence.

Also, it's largely been disproven that Scientific evidence is completely objective, it is impossible to separate the observer's bias from the act of observation.  In deciding to make an observation, you implicitly must have already had a preconception of that which you are planning to observe, otherwise you would never have known about that thing to ever think about observing it.

But that is not, and never has been, a discount against Science.  It is simply one of the limitations of the scientific process.

If you're going to make claims about the nature of reality, then expect people to ask for scientific support. It's no use pretending that science is useless because the process can't be "proved" scientifically. Nothing in science is ever "proved".

It's fine. Really. You have no scientific evidence. Thats all.  
troyjs
Reply with quote  #50 
Lucid,

You asked for scientific evidence, however it seems that you believe some things which have not been scientifically verified, or for which there is no scientific evidence.

You said:

Philosophy is not evidence I'm afraid.

 

What scientific evidence is there for you to believe this statement? If you reply without providing scientific evidence, it will be glaringly obvious that you have no scientific evidence for this statement.

 

Not to erect a strawman, I will assume that you have some scientific evidence in order to be justified in believing that statement, and I look forward to seeing it.


kind regards
neilfrompta
Reply with quote  #51 

I meant that todays empiricist often believe that nothing can produce something which is ironic because it was the empiricist of the 18th and 19th century that was defending causality.

Hence my reference to 21st century empiricist having done a 180 degree turn in doctrine.

Sorry if I was being ambiguous.
lucid
Reply with quote  #52 
Quote:
Originally Posted by troyjs
Lucid,

You asked for scientific evidence, however it seems that you believe some things which have not been scientifically verified, or for which there is no scientific evidence.

You said:

Philosophy is not evidence I'm afraid.

 

What scientific evidence is there for you to believe this statement? If you reply without providing scientific evidence, it will be glaringly obvious that you have no scientific evidence for this statement.

 

Not to erect a strawman, I will assume that you have some scientific evidence in order to be justified in believing that statement, and I look forward to seeing it.


kind regards

How about this? What philosophy can prove that philosophy is reliable? 
See, we can both play this game. Troyjs, you have a pitiless understanding of science in general, go back and address my critique of your response. 

---

Religious claims need to be supported too I'm afraid. If what you claim can't in principle be detected, if it can't even be inferred beyond reasonable doubt, if there is no way of you being able to verify the truth of one theological claim over another, if you have no way of demonstrating the detailed sub-claims of your argument i.e souls in degrees, souls relationship to physical intelligence etc - then what the hell is the point of talking about it? You might as well be riffing with your imagination. The dishonesty comes when you begin attacking those who ask you for some evidence. Suddenly the requirement of evidence becomes an unjustified prerequisite. 

It's one thing to believe that you have personal justification for believing proposition x because you've constructed a "valid" argument for it and verified it's "soundness" via the bible - it's another thing to actually provide physical evidence for the proposition itself. Like I said to you earlier, science isn't about reading your favorite holy book. 

It's no use pointing to the philosophical underpinnings of reason and science and using them as an excuse to avoid needing to provide evidence because these underpinnings are there regardless of the claim being made. 

Stephen Law of the Royal Institute of Philosophy calls this tactic Going Nuclear
He uses the term "reason" but the word can be equally interchanged with "science" or "scientific reasoning". 

Skepticism about reason
 
In philosophy, a “skeptic” is someone who denies we have knowledge in a given area. Here is a classic example of a skeptical argument:
 
Whenever we argue about the truth or falsity of a belief, we apply our powers of reason. But why suppose that reason is itself a reliable route to the truth? We might attempt to justify our use of reason, of course. But any justification of reason that we offer will itself rely on reason. Relying on reason to justify our reliance on reason is a bit like taking a second-hand car salesman’s word for it that he is trustworthy – it’s an entirely circular justification, and so no justification at all! So it turns out that our reliance on reason is entirely unjustified. It’s a leap of faith!
 
From the claim that our reliance on reason is unjustified, it is seemingly then but a short step to the conclusion that no belief is justified:
 
But if reliance on reason cannot be justified, then, because every rational justification relies on reason, so no belief can be justified. But if no belief is justified, then, ultimately, everything is a faith position! But then your belief is no more reasonable than mine. Get out of that!
 
Whether or not this is actually a good argument for the conclusion that no belief is justified is not a question I’ll address here. The point is, at first sight, it does lookpretty persuasive. It’s not easy to spot precisely where the argument goes wrong, if, indeed, it goes wrong at all. This means that if Mike’s belief system is taking a beating, rationally speaking, Mike can adopt the last-ditch tactic of employing this skeptical argument. Mike can then admit that his belief might not be justified. But he can insist that his opponent’s belief system cannot be justified either. The skeptical argumentoffers Mike a wonderful “get out of jail free” card. It allows him to walk away with his head held high, saying, “So you see? In the last analysis, our beliefs are equally (ir)rational! They are both ‘faith positions’!”
 
You can see why I call this strategy “Going Nuclear”. Once Mike plays the skeptical card, all his opponent’s hard work in constructing arguments against Mike’s position counts for nothing. Kaboom! At one stroke, Mike demolishes them all. He lays waste to every rational argument, bringing every belief down to the same level.
 
In order for Mike’s opponent to deal with his Going Nuclear, they will now have to refute his philosophical argument. That is a difficult, perhaps impossible, thing to do. They are certainly going to struggle. As a result, any audience to their debate will be struck not only by Mike’s sophistication in employing such a devastating philosophical objection, but also by his opponent’s mounting frustration as they wrestle with the thorny philosophical conundrum Mike has set them. It’s quite likely Mike will be perceived to be the intellectual victor in this exchange. At the very least, he won’t be thought to have lost.
 
This version of Going Nuclear can be employed in defence of a wide variety of beliefs. Believe in the curative powers of crystals, or that there’s a family of fairies living at the bottom of your garden? If you find yourself on the losing side of the argument, you can always employ Going Nuclear as a last ditch, face-saving strategy.
 
So what, exactly, is wrong with this version of Going Nuclear? After all, it might be that the skeptical argument Mike has employed really is a good argument. Perhaps every belief system really is as rational as every other. So, if Mike finds himself argued into a corner, why shouldn’t he employ such a skeptical argument?
 
Because it’s almost certainly an intellectually dishonest ruse. Those who press the nuclear button rarely do so in good faith. Bear in mind that, in such discussions, playing the skeptical card really is the nuclear option. By Going Nuclear, Mike avoids defeat, but only by utterly annihilating the rationality of every belief. All positions, no matter how sensible or nuts, come out as equally (ir)rational.
 
If Mike is to be consistent, he must now accept that that the Earth is flat, that the Earth is round, that milk makes people fly, that it doesn’t, that astrology is true, that is isn’t – that all these beliefs are equally (un)reasonable. Now of course, Mike almost certainly doesn’t believe any of this. The fact is, he does think reason provides us with a fairly reliable tool for establishing what is true and what isn’t. We all rely on reason in our day-to-day lives – Mike included. In fact, Mike constantly trusts his life to reason, whenever, for example, he trusts that the brakes on his car will work, that a bridge will support his weight, that a medicine will save his life, and so on.
 
Indeed, those who employ this version of Going Nuclear are usually quite content to rely on reason to make their case just so long as they are not losing the argument. It’s only when the tide of rationality turns against them that they reach for the nuclear button. And of course, once their opponent has left the room, they’ll start using reason again to try to prop up their belief. That’s downright hypocritical.
 
So this version of Going Nuclear is, in truth, almost always a ploy. Those who use it don’t usually believe what they’re saying about reason. They say it only to raise enough dust and confusion to make quick their escape.
 
Stephen Law
Editor
-------------

So in other words, nice try. 
Lawlessone777
Reply with quote  #53 
Lucid I think you're sort of missing the point on this, and I would like to open this with your statement above that one can interchange the words "reason" with "science". That, right there, fundamentally is the core of the problem with how you're viewing this problem, as well as how the vast majority of new atheists are also viewing it.

Science is not reason, science is repeated experimentation to prove a theory. Reason is deductive or inductive reasoning which is one of the core principles behind philosophy.

The problem with bringing science into the discussion and requiring a believer to somehow appeal to it in order to provide evidence for God is that one of the foundational aspects of the scientific method is materialistic naturalism. That is, at its' most basic core, the fact that any conclusion that is drawn from a scientific hypothesis and experiment must be naturalistic in it's nature. Science has within its' basic framework a "No God Allowed" rule. Now this is crucial for science, and is chiefly the reason why we no longer believe Zeus causes lightning and thunder.

However there is a massive, massive problem when you try and point to a believer and say, "Give me scientific proof for God." Why? Because science only concerns itself with naturalistic phenomenon, so to ask for science to discuss God is simply a conversation stopper. It's impossible. Secondly what you're asking for is physical evidence of a non-physical being. God is not a really tall dude sitting on a throne in some place that we can physically go to.

And so most atheists will throw their hands up and say that if it cannot be proven scientifically, it's not a useful question. This also is massively troubling when you consider the fact that there are vast swaths of human knowledge that you would also have to sacrifice on the altar of Logical Positivism (the belief you're defending in this thread). Your complain that things cannot be proven philosophically is also very troubling. There are certain things in life that we can only prove with philosophy, such as qualitative statements (Is my wife beautiful? Why are sunsets beautiful?), or existential questions (Am I real? Are there minds other than my own?), and finally there are problems that can only be solved with deductive reasoning (crimes).

Now you may think that one can solve a crime with science, but you'd be incorrect. One solves a crime with deductive/inductive reasoning, philosophy, and (fairly often) gut instinct. The only time science plays a roll in solving any problem, as a matter of fact, is when it is specifically a scientific problem as defined by the scientific method. Beyond that, the only time science is used is to prove a piece of evidence that's being used as a premise in a larger philosophical, or deductive argument. This is how apologists use science. I will never say, "Science proves God", what I'll say is, "Science supports a piece of evidence I'm using to defend a premise within a larger structure of a deductive argument."

So you see asking for scientific proof of God, or heck scientific proof of anything that is not specifically a scientific theory, is a conversation stopper and literally impossible by science's own method.
lucid
Reply with quote  #54 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawlessone777

Science has within its' basic framework a "No God Allowed" rule. 

That is not true. If god were demonstrated to exist then our scientific understanding would be broadened. What science can say nothing about are claims of magic, supernaturalism or immaterialism. There is simply no support for those notions. The proponents of these belief systems deem them to be beyond the scope of any meaningful method of detection. But the the question I have to ask is how they can even claim to know such things are real to begin with? And why do so many christians claim there is evidence for god, when what they mean is they have arguments

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawlessone777

However there is a massive, massive problem when you try and point to a believer and say, "Give me scientific proof for God." Why? Because science only concerns itself with naturalistic phenomenon, so to ask for science to discuss God is simply a conversation stopper. It's impossible. 

Fine. I opened up another thread on this topic. I find the admission that there is no physical evidence whatsoever for this being to be a point against you. 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawlessone777

Secondly what you're asking for is physical evidence of a non-physical being.

"To talk of immaterial existences is to talk of nothings. To say that the human soul, angels, god, are immaterial, is to say they are nothings, or that there is no god, no angels, no soul." T. Jefferson. 

What is "non physical" exactly? How do you define it? Where is this realm? What is "immaterial" for that matter? And how do you know that a non material universe exists? 

It's no use pointing to abstract concepts like love and numbers as analogous examples of immaterial things, because abstract concepts are derived from our interactions with the natural world and produced by our physical brains. You aren't just talking about a concept here, you are talking about a place with a being. 

Furthermore, the god hypothesis is attempting to answer a scientific question, namely where the universe came from. 

I think what troyjs needs to do is perhaps admit first and foremost that the claim that "souls" exists in degrees within living organisms and have some relationship to their levels of intelligence (define intelligence?) or capacity to believe things (how do you measure this?), is something for which there is zero evidence whatsoever. Zip, zilch, nada. It is a theological assertion which trespasses upon the grounds of science overtly. It's childish to complain when asked to demonstrate how you know any of this.


Lawlessone777
Reply with quote  #55 
Quote:
That is not true. If god were demonstrated to exist then our scientific understanding would be broadened. What science can say nothing about are claims of magic, supernaturalism or immaterialism. There is simply no support for those notions. The proponents of these belief systems deem them to be beyond the scope of any meaningful method of detection. But the the question I have to ask is how they can even claim to know such things are real to begin with? And why do so many christians claim there is evidence for god, when what they mean is they have arguments

The bits in bold are the very crux of this problem. Also your assertion later that things which cannot be proven scientifically (beyond the scope of any meaningful method of detection) must be abandoned. While you may not be raising the flag of Logical Positivism, your overall assumption and worldview obviously rest their laurels on it as a base assumption. The end of this paragraph neatly ties it all together, "What they have are arguments." Which means you clearly view philosophy as not being a logical method of proving anything.

Now with regards to your direct quote, I am correct in saying that science has within its framework a "No God Allowed" rule. That rule is materialistic naturalism which precludes the immaterial and supernatural, both of which God are. So here we return to science and your statement that God is beyond the meaningful methods of detection. You're obviously speaking from a position of logical positivism, and assuming logical positivism in your approach to investigating the existence of God, all the while disregarding philosophy as a reasonable method of truth.

So what you're asking the apologist to do is not only swim upstream by trying to provide you such a shocking quality of evidence that it will break your already firmly rooted atheistic worldview, but you're requesting they abide by a methodology which was crafted with the specific intent to automatically defeat the existence of God.

This is my chief complaint about new atheists. You've basically crafted your worldview around the negation of mine, and then asked me to prove my worldview.

Quote:
Fine. I opened up another thread on this topic. I find the admission that there is no physical evidence whatsoever for this being to be a point against you. 

There's also no physical evidence of love, beauty, numbers, or concepts. I guess we should assume they don't exist either.

Quote:
What is "non physical" exactly? How do you define it? Where is this realm? What is "immaterial" for that matter? And how do you know that a non material universe exists? 

It's no use pointing to abstract concepts like love and numbers as analogous examples of immaterial things, because abstract concepts are derived from our interactions with the natural world and produced by our physical brains. You aren't just talking about a concept here, you are talking about a place with a being. 

Ah you tried to cut me off at the pass here. Something which is immaterial is simply something which lacks a material cause. To say that those things are "nothing" is, again, to also disregard all non-physical things such as what I quoted above. For example a "song" is an immaterial thing which does really exist, and can affect the word around it. "Music" is the vibration of the air waves which resonate with your eardrum.

If you're asking for me to provide you another example of a non-material, intelligent, being then obviously I would not be able to do so without citing, for example, a human soul, demons, angels, or ghosts. Something you already don't believe in. So again, you're asking me to provide you with examples of something you don't believe in.

Quote:
Furthermore, the god hypothesis is attempting to answer a scientific question, namely where the universe came from.

Really? Is that all God is? And considering that the cause of the universe must be transcendent, and thus beyond the laws of space and time, would it not automatically be the duty of philosophy to discuss what this cause must be? Since science cannot operate beyond the laws of the universe, once we are not talking about those laws anymore, science become dead as a method of investigation.

When you really understand what science is at its core, a methodology used to study naturalistic phenomenon which are repeatable and testable, its readily apparent that there are vast swaths of human study that it cannot touch. Such as questions on morality, subjective questions on things like beauty, existential questions such as what is the nature of being, and all sorts of fun stuff.

Quote:
I think what troyjs needs to do is perhaps admit first and foremost that the claim that "souls" exists in degrees within living organisms and have some relationship to their levels of intelligence (define intelligence?) or capacity to believe things (how do you measure this?), is something for which there is zero evidence whatsoever. Zip, zilch, nada. It is a theological assertion which trespasses upon the grounds of science overtly. It's childish to complain when asked to demonstrate how you know any of this.

I think before Troyjs needs to do this, you need to first understand the distinction between science and philosophy. I think you also need to understand that it is not "childish" to raise an eyebrow when an atheist asks for scientific evidence of a philosophical problem. What you're trying to do is shoehorn a subject into a methodology that it is simply not compatible with. You're asking for scientific proof of a subject matter which science automatically precludes within the framework of its' own method.

What you think you're doing is asking for a rational level of evidence to prove a subject that you feel skeptical about. What you're actually doing is demanding a type of evidence which cannot logically be produced, and asking that it be presented and argued within the framework of your own worldview which you specifically crafted with the intent to to discredit this type of evidence.

Asking the apologist to argue in the arena of Logical Positivism is like asking us to beat you in a game of chess, then saying we're not allowed to have any chess pieces to play with. It's simply silly.
SueDoeNimm
Reply with quote  #56 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawlessone777

Science has within its' basic framework a "No God Allowed" rule. 

That is not true. If god were demonstrated to exist then our scientific understanding would be broadened. What science can say nothing about are claims of magic, supernaturalism or immaterialism.



I disagree.  Such things could be subjected to study.  James Randi has made a standing offer to study such things.

lucid
Reply with quote  #57 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SueDoeNimm
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawlessone777

Science has within its' basic framework a "No God Allowed" rule. 

That is not true. If god were demonstrated to exist then our scientific understanding would be broadened. What science can say nothing about are claims of magic, supernaturalism or immaterialism.



I disagree.  Such things could be subjected to study.  James Randi has made a standing offer to study such things.


Yes actually you are right. I may have to amend that statement somewhat. 

I think what I was trying to say was that science cannot disprove supernaturalism or immaterialism. If assertions are made on that basis, then at most, science can conclude that there is no positive evidence for the truth of those assertions under controlled conditions. 
Lawlessone777
Reply with quote  #58 
Quote:
I think what I was trying to say was that science cannot disprove supernaturalism or immaterialism. If assertions are made on that basis, then at most, science can conclude that there is no positive evidence for the truth of those assertions under controlled conditions. 

And again I must assert the glaring logical problem with your methodology when it comes to religion. Using Logical Positivism to assert the non-truth of religion is like using Veganism to assert the non-truth of how to properly cook steak.
lucid
Reply with quote  #59 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawlessone777
Quote:
I think what I was trying to say was that science cannot disprove supernaturalism or immaterialism. If assertions are made on that basis, then at most, science can conclude that there is no positive evidence for the truth of those assertions under controlled conditions. 

And again I must assert the glaring logical problem with your methodology when it comes to religion. Using Logical Positivism to assert the non-truth of religion is like using Veganism to assert the non-truth of how to properly cook steak.

I don't think the problem is with my methodology. It seems to me that the assertion that what you believe lies "beyond the realm" (or whatever) is not a definition with any practical or logical application, and is quite frankly, meaningless. It sounds more like a cop out. 

I can perfectly understand that it may be your faith. But I don't care about faith. I care about evidence. The problem is with your unfalsifiable metaphysics, anyone can use the tactic your using now albeit in favor of some other god or magical entity. 

All that aside though, are you essentially admitting that there is no physical evidence for the existence of a god? 
lucid
Reply with quote  #60 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawlessone777
Ah you tried to cut me off at the pass here. Something which is immaterial is simply something which lacks a material cause. To say that those things are "nothing" is, again, to also disregard all non-physical things such as what I quoted above. For example a "song" is an immaterial thing which does really exist, and can affect the word around it. "Music" is the vibration of the air waves which resonate with your eardrum.

First of all, songs, emotions, numbers etc are all tied directly to the physical universe. Songs have material causes as do our emotions, and concepts like numbers relate to the proportions of our universe as we observe it. 

I think where you are getting stuck is that you are proposing the existence of something which by your own definition doesn't exist.

When we talk about things existing we talk about them in relation to nature, that which we can observe and model. 

What you are saying is that there is something which exists, which is completely separate from nature. Something cant exist and not exist at the same time, thats incoherent. 

What you have to be able to demonstrate is essentially a separate reality. But how the hell you intend to do this I don't know since it's a contradiction. 
Why should I believe any of this? 
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