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Leviny
Reply with quote #1 

The you tube video is no longer available, so let's start this topic over.

First let's agree to try and avoid any prejudice of presumption, other than the laws of logic. So, for example, I will not presume anything supernatural DOESN'T exist, nor that anything supernatural DOES exist. I will, however, presume that logical contradiction is not allowed, etc.

 

Given no information, should we assume anything? Sure. We should assume that WHATEVER we are told is false. EVERYTHING. So, for example. "God DOESN'T exist" is false. "God EXISTS" is false. "You are guilty of the crime you're accused of" is false. "Your are INNOCENT of the crime you're accused of" is also false, although western legal systems make this assumption (prior to any evidence being presented) in order to protect their citizens. This is a social norm, but logically it is incorrect. We don't KNOW you're innocent until we know something about the case. Remember, all of these premises depend on "GIVEN NO INFORMATION".

 

Given no information, we are all agnostics. No one knows God exists, or doesn't.

 

Does this mean atheism is the correct presumption? depends on your definition of atheism. Some understand atheism to mean "there is no God", in which case atheism cannot be presumed. If by atheism we mean "NO BELIEF IN GOD'S EXISTENCE" then it is a correct presumption because it says "God exists" is false. It does NOT say "God doesn't exist" is true. Many self-described atheists do say "God doesn't exist" which is an assertion that cannot be presumed.

 

Again, if the term atheism is used correctly, it simply means a-theism or no belief in a theist God. As such, it should be presumed, given complete ignorance. This correctly places the burden of proof on theism. There is no burden of proof on atheism. If, however, atheism means "belief that God does not exist" then it is an assertion, which should be presumed false and carries a burden of proof.

 

I don't believe Zeus exists. I don't need to prove this.

I don't believe unicorns exist. I don't need to prove this.

I don't believe pink elephants, mermaids, leprauchons, and tooth fairies exist. I don't need to prove this.

I don't believe God exists. I don't need to prove this.

 

Now, let's add information. Does this information prove pink elephants exist? or that our existence is logically impossible without them? Be careful not to use ANY prejudice or presumptions not supported by valid information. Surely direct, empirical information about the existence of pink elephants would be helpful. Since none is available, the presumption (they don't exist) remains. Is there any evidence of their effect on what can be observed? If so, is it impossible that this effect was caused by something else? if not, they exist. But how could you possibly know? You'd have to rule out the possibility that anything else could have caused the observed effect. This is where it gets fuzzy, because ruling out causes depends on your understanding of the effect. If your understanding of the causes and the effect itself is insufficient, you're invoking the argument from personal incredulity.

Seems to me we are stuck with the unfalsifiable presumption that "God exists" is false. All available information I'm aware of is insufficient to prove God exists. This doesn't mean he doesn't exist, only that belief in his existence is presumptuous.

 

Also, seems to me we are stuck with the unfalsifiable presumption that "God doesn't exist" is false. All available information I'm aware of is insufficient to prove God doesn't exist. This doesn't mean he does exist, only that belief in his non-existence is presumptuous.

 

So there is no knowledge, and no basis for reasonable belief. What about faith? Faith is the attributing of significance to belief which has zero percent certainty. In other words, it is the violation of the presumption of falseness, and an unwarranted exemption from the burden of proof.

 

Therefore, faith is not reasonable.

Blake1960
Reply with quote #2 
Semantic gymnastics leading to absurd rhetorical assertion rightly carry no weight in substantive philosophical debate.
Leviny
Reply with quote #3 

Blake, that can be said about any sentence in any philosophical discussion... but it means nothing. Is there anything in what I said that you actually disagree with? Can you support your disagreement?

Blake1960
Reply with quote #4 
Inaccurate and wildly so. Substantive philosophical argument does not turn on mere semantics.

Besides lacking a substantive foundation, your argument is blatantly self-refuting.

>>> We should assume that WHATEVER we are told is false. EVERYTHING.

Need we say more? :\
MrVirtualCoder
Reply with quote #5 
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Because a thing can't be proven, that does not entail that it does not exist. Atheists must have Christian faith to firmly assert that some deity don't exist because they haven't seen it.

Absence of belief is non-position. Non position entails non-position. A position can not be a non-position. Due to the law of logic, contradicting things cannot both exist; a man on the moon can't both be on the moon, and not be on the moon, because that contradicts itself, simple as that.

Thus, Atheism is a name for a position. The position of Atheism is a position, and, it thus can't both be a non-position and a position, because that would contradict itself. From this, it follows that all Atheists believe, they believe in the falsity of Theism; they assert, and hold firmly, that Theism is false.
Therefore, Atheism is not absence of belief, but the contrary, a belief.
stephenmills1000
Reply with quote #6 

Fascinating topic, can't believe I over looked this, but glad it's been bumped back.

I have a few fundamental issues with the propositions:

- Firstly, given no information, the initial proposal "We should assume that WHATEVER we are told is false. EVERYTHING," will be assumed false, placing me in a dilemma before we even get going.

- I don't believe we hold any conclusions without premises, for instance no one truly believes "God does/does not exist" without premises, even if it's as simple as (1) My parents said God exists, (2) I believe my parents, (3) therefore, I believe God exists.  It's whether those premises are any good is what ought to be up for debate.

- A jury can't possibly 'know' someone on trial is guilty or innocent, they were not there, and thus must weigh the presented evidence and arrive at a conclusion.  This is the method exercised by self-proclaimed atheists/theists, as each position is an assertion of belief.  Otherwise yes, we are agnostic initially, especially without any introduction of the mere concept of God and what it even is.  But there is no warrant here, upon being introduced to the information, why we must assume it's false, we can freely remain skeptical and not make any assertions until more information is gathered to satisfy us.  Skepticism/agnosticism does not equal atheism.

- Burden of proof enters in when an assertion is made.  Such is evidenced by the OP claim- if we already did what was said we should do, there would be no reason to present and defend the case!

- Assuming everything we are told is false, we invariably turn to the proposition "God does not exist."  As we can see, holding this universal presumption allows for no beliefs whatsoever, bringing about the conclusion that there really is no truth- but then that is in turn presumed false!  We're locked in hopeless contradiction, so as OP asserts in the very beginning: "presume that logical contradiction is not allowed," we may without predjudice, toss this presumption out.

- Just for fun: Under the presumption that every proposal begins false, what happens when someone says to me about themselves "I always lie?"

KeithS
Reply with quote #7 

Quote:

Does this mean atheism is the correct presumption? [It] depends on your definition of atheism.



Until very recently, atheism was the denial or rejection that there is a god. This unsupportable position is a gravely irrational superstition that relies almost entirely on faith.  The true atheist can produce no scientific or historical evidence. The atheist can't have a personal experience of revelation and can't even rely on anecdotal confirmation from the first hand knowledge of other people.  Why then, are so many atheists grumpy and argumentative about theism?

The evidence of God's existence is so ubiquitous and abundant in the world around us and in science that the evidence seems mundane, making it necessary to be discerning. Most of us have heard Richard Dawkins say that one must constantly remind oneself that what looks designed isn't really designed; he doesn't want to follow the truth where it leads. Presumably Dawkins is just an atheist because all his peers are atheists.

Theism is the thinking persons' position. Theists are open-minded and free thinking enough to follow the evidence where it leads. If atheists were just more skeptical about their beliefs many more could come to see the shackles they wear.  They also wouldn't have to constantly repeat their faith statements to themselves and each other to keep each other from losing their faith. There would be no need to redefine "atheist" to avoid justifying their beliefs in public discourse.

Disclaimer - fallicies intended.

Here is my point:

Lack of belief is clearly communicated with the word agnostic. Why use the word "atheist", while acknowledging it to be ambiguous?

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