|
Matthias
|
|
Posted 04/24/12
|
Reply with quote
#46
|
|
Quote: Originally Posted by belorg No, it is not a misunderstanding. If 'sinful acts' are objective, it must at least be possible to objectively define them. We may not know what every logically possible task is, but this can, in principle be known.
This is too strong a requirement and doesn't really fit with how humans use words that weren't developed for a specific technical purpose. Lawless is almost surely correct that he has a pretty good idea of what "evil" is - even if he can't identify its precise extension, even if he can't specify a precise intension using words, even if he's mistaken about its metaphysical basis, and even if other people mean something different intensionally or extensionally by the same word. This is why despite having a mostly-shared set of moral intuitions nobody's really succeeded in developing a verbal intension of moral concepts that properly maps to even our clearest-cut extensions - every moral theory has major "gotcha!" thought experiments - despite that being one of the longest-standing projects in philosophy.
Most concepts people employ are defined not by a set of necessary and sufficient conditions but by family resemblance over a cluster of clear examples. I think this is what some of the theist theorists of morality here are appealing to when they say that there has to be some particular thing that works as the measure of morality in order for us to make moral judgments, but it's not quite right that we have some example in the cluster of defining concepts that's in the exact center of the cluster (if that idea even has any meaning), and it's certainly not right that these paradigmatic instances actually need to be actualized in order for them to guide our judgments, and it's super-duper not right that the properties of the actual entities are the truthmakers of our moral judgments. If my motto is WWJD? then "Jesus" is to some degree the/a basis of my moral judgments, but if the historical Jesus (unbeknownst to me) snuck into people's houses in the middle of the night, murdered them, and ate them for dinner, that wouldn't make my judgment that doing such things is wrong mistaken, nor would, if I learned of this awful and improbable truth, my judgment "Jesus was evil" be a contradiction in terms.
|
|
Loading...
|
|
|
WLCFan
|
|
Posted 04/24/12
|
Reply with quote
#47
|
|
|
An 'objective' definition of morality may be too strong a requirement, yes, but his point stands. One needs to have (in non-philosophical terms) a rough 'feeling' for what sin is in order to talk about sinful acts. Lawlessone777 has been forced to concede that he already has an idea of what sin is without reference to God.
|
|
Loading...
|
|
|
Lawlessone777
|
|
Posted 04/24/12
|
Reply with quote
#48
|
|
Quote: Again, you're not understanding. I am dealing only with ontological matters here. If you say that God is omnipotent since he is capable of performing all logical tasks, great! We know exactly what logic is, and what a logical task would be. We have a pre-established scale of power: the ability to do logical tasks. As you said, the question of determining every 'logical task' would be an epistemological one, and not one that neither you or I care about.
Now, you say God is morally perfect, since... what? You haven't even defined morality, unlike the case for omnipotence or omni-benevolence. It's not a matter of knowing if a particular action is sinful or not (epistemological), you actually don't even know what sin is (ontological issue).
At no point did I even imply any epistemological issue.
You're saying that there is no ontological definition of morality? You do know there's an entire branch of philosophy known as ethics right? Are we talking about Normative Morality? Meta-ethics? And of course we know what sin is, and morality is. Let me quote you some definitions:
mo·ral·i·ty/məˈralətē/| Noun: | - Principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behavior.
- Behavior as it is affected by the observation of these principles.
|
|
Morality, or in a more specific sense, moral values are principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong, good and evil. These are principles and codes of behaviour which one holds to be universal in that all people should govern their behaviour based upon their observation. Let me quote to you Dr. Craig's definition of objective morality:
Quote: To say that there are objective moral values is to say that something is right or wrong independently of whether anybody believes it to be so. It is to say, for example, that Nazi anti-Semitism was morally wrong, even though the Nazis who carried out the Holocaust thought that it was good; and it would still be wrong even if the Nazis had won World War II and succeeded in exterminating or brainwashing everybody who disagreed with them.
So your complaint that we cannot provide an Ontological Definition of Objective Moral Values is unfounded. Morality is a set of principles distinguishing the difference between what one views as good, and what one views as evil; as well as the behaviour that arises from these set of principles. The difference between what one views as good, and what one views as evil is dependant upon these sets of principals. One who argues in favour of objective morality is one who argues that there is an overarching set of moral principles which are independent of human opinion. Or more basically, there are things which are morally evil regardless of who believes in them or not.
And so a being which is "all good" or "morally perfect" is a being who holds to a set of principles which are objectively correct. The Christian ontology of these principles are that God is the foundation through which they rest. He is a morally perfect being, in that his principles are objectively good and binding above and beyond human opinion.
So again your claim that we cannot define morality ignores the fact that there is an entire branch of philosophy dedicated to defining morality.
|
|
Loading...
|
|
|
Lawlessone777
|
|
Posted 04/24/12
|
Reply with quote
#49
|
|
Quote: An 'objective' definition of morality may be too strong a requirement, yes, but his point stands. One needs to have (in non-philosophical terms) a rough 'feeling' for what sin is in order to talk about sinful acts. Lawlessone777 has been forced to concede that he already has an idea of what sin is without reference to God.
Who's conceding what? I've studied the Philosophy of Ethics in depth and am well aware of the ontological and epistemological discussions on the existence of Objective Moral Values.
Are you guys talking about General Revelation? Special Revelation? Moral intuition? Meta-ethics? If we're talking about meta-ethics are we discussing Moral Linguistics, Epistemology, or Ontology? If we're talking about Normative Ethics are we discussing the distinction between particulars and general systems?
This is not you finding some sort of "aha" this, much like with many subjects, is your confusion about a subject that you haven't studied enough and I'm trying to catch you up to where the debate actually is so you can actually have a coherent conversation about it.
|
|
Loading...
|
|
|
WLCFan
|
|
Posted 04/24/12
|
Reply with quote
#50
|
|
|
I'm tiring of your wordplay here, and most recently, your horrible strawman attacks. We know what morality is, but we don't know what 'sin' is on your view. Re-read my post if you like.
Quote: And so a being which is "all good" or "morally perfect" is a being who holds to a set of principles which are objectively correct. The Christian ontology of these principles are that God is the foundation through which they rest. He is a morally perfect being, in that his principles are objectively good and binding above and beyond human opinion.
Correct and good with respect to what standard? You've ignored this question far too many times. Again, this is an ontological question, and not an epistemological one. If you describe God as morally good, what do you mean by 'good'?
And for your information, the statement 'I've studied this issue a lot and you haven't' is only reflective of your own insecurity.
|
|
Loading...
|
|
|
Lawlessone777
|
|
Posted 04/24/12
|
Reply with quote
#51
|
|
Quote: I'm tiring of your wordplay here, and most recently, your horrible strawman attacks. We know what morality is, but we don't know what 'sin' is on your view.
Sin is immoral behaviour. That's been the very basic definition of sin since the Bible was translated into english. Let me quote the basic definition:
sin/sin/| Noun: | | An immoral act considered to be a transgression against divine law. |
| | | Verb: | | | | Abbreviation: | | | | Synonyms: | noun. trespass - guilt - offense - transgression - offence verb. transgress - err - trespass - offend |
As such sin is merely the theological moral linguistic when it comes to specifically divine morality, or from the Christian perspective, the Objective Moral Values which are rooted in Gods nature.
Quote: Correct and good with respect to what standard? You've ignored this question far too many times. Again, this is an ontological question, and not an epistemological one. If you describe God as morally good, what do you mean by 'good'?
Now you're trying to define what is considered to be "good"? Honestly you're simply trying to narrow down the confusion until you can find some sort of sticking point. Let me show you the basic definition of what it is to be good:
good/go͝od/| Adjective: | | To be desired or approved of. |
| | | Noun: | | That which is morally right; righteousness. |
| | | Adverb: | | Well: "my mother could never cook this good". |
| | | Synonyms: | adjective. nice - kind - fine noun. benefit - profit - advantage - avail - welfare - use adverb. well - nicely - fine - right - okay |
When a Christian speak of being morally good what they're speaking of is their actions as compared to the Objective Moral Values which are rooted in Gods nature. Or, as you can see form the basic definition, that which is morally right, or righteous. And so "goodness" is defined on the Christian worldview as one's actions as they are compared to God's standard of morality and the principles set out by his divine moral law.
I haven't ignored this, I've told you it blatantly. An action is deemed good when it is done in accordance to the standards set about by Gods objective moral laws. At this point you're dragging the conversation into a discussion about moral linguistics.
Quote: And for your information, the statement 'I've studied this issue a lot and you haven't' is only reflective of your own insecurity.
Not it's really not, it's indicative of the fact that you're trying to have a debate about a subject that really isn't a debate. You're trying to quibble over moral linguistics, something which has already been determined and well defined long ago if you read and understood the source material on the subject. The definitions of what "good" and "righteous" are are certainly not controversial, you're just shoving the debate in that direction to avoid the discussion we should be having as to whether or not you're a moral relativist, or objectivist, and what the consequences and evidence is for either one of these sides.
You really need to stop getting so emotional over this. You challenge theists all the time, you shouldn't get so frothy when one challenges you.
|
|
Loading...
|
|
|
CrashTestAuto
|
|
Posted 04/24/12
|
Reply with quote
#52
|
|
Quote: Originally Posted by Archsage Crash bro, I urge you to fully read, and re-read my post before responding. To be honest, this post of yours nearly made me admit that the Moral Argument was completely erroneous (good job, too, for atheism's sake). However, instead of giving up, I actually spent a long, long time reasoning through everything. And I finally was able to find an "oh, I got it", moment and address your concerns. You made me feel like I was in high-school again facing a tough calculus problem, lol.
But thank you, my moral argument is much stronger now, and you now have a very strong objection here that you can use against theists with a weaker grasp of the moral argument than I. Anyway, please make sure to read my post carefully, it's very well thought out, and I don't think I can explain myself much simpler that I have -- I'm just a layman, and I'm not paid to think...
Okay, I've read this twice, and I agree in part. I'll break it down a bit. I respect that you took it seriously, but my argument is really just an expansion of what Godboy said in the OP, so I can't take all the credit 
Quote: I think there is a misunderstanding here. By saying that something is objective because it is rooted in an actual existence, it means that all values have objective meaning because of the things' existence. Epistemic concerns, about how we know whether some action is good or bad, or to what degree, are irrelevant to the argument. Furthermore, God allowing an action to happen says nothing about the morality of such an event. For morality isn't said to be grounded in God's actions or allowance, but within His very nature. To say that something is right or wrong because God would/wouldn't allow it would be to say that morality is grounded in God's actions -- something that would make morality subjective and wholly inapplicable to us who have not the qualities of God. Keep in mind that we are defining morality to be rooted in the existence of God. We aren't saying that if you are like God you are moral -- while that may or may not be true, that isn't what the argument claims. In the same way, the 2D (second dimension) has height rooted in its existence. That isn't to say you have to be like the 2D in order to be tall -- while it may be true that the more of the 2D you are, the taller you are. It is to say that because of the 2D you can be tall or short. In the same way, because of God you can be morally good or bad. I think, for the sake of defending your point Crash, you're seeing something like this: 1) If Fairies do not exist, then fairy-likeness does not exist 2) Fairy-likeness does exist Therefore Fairies exist.
And you are seeing that to be analogous with the Moral Argument. Now the problem with the connection between this the fairy-argument, and your god-likeness argument, as you may know, is with premise (1). In that something only needs to be defined and conceivable, not actually existent, in order to have its likeness actualized. And yet, those conceptions are a mere collection of actually existent qualities wrapped together and named as a certain thing. A fairy is defined as a miniature person with wings that glows with the ability to grant a wish; that is, use their volition to make true a premise that utters out of the wishful mouth of its subject. But those things -- they are objective. Wings, flight, light, short size, volition, people's wishes, etc.. Merely collecting them together allows for someone to create a "likeness" that can be attributed out of a conception. But because a fairy is a conception, it is not to say that Fairies exist, but that which the fairy is conceived upon exists. So what is your god-likeness saying? Is it doing the same thing? No, in fact it cannot. Because fairy-likeness can be derived to its base qualities of actual existence, and then can be seen to be objective or not. But God-likeness, in terms of morality, cannot be a conception -- it cannot be derived from any other actually existent thing. Which is why, in order for morality to be objective, God could not be a mere conception but an actualization. I hope that clears up things a bit. Now, for the sake of addressing your comments regarding the fact that God allowed the holocaust to happen, it is also important to bear in mind what exactly the argument is trying to say. We aren't saying that morality is founded upon God's actions, but that it is founded upon God's nature. If morality gets its meaning based on what God allowed to happen, then morality would not only be non-objective, but every event that actually existed, no matter how contrary, would be of the same moral value. Such a view of morality is implicitly incoherent. And no one holds to that. So don't worry about going farther with that angle of inquiry. God's allowance of events isn't what morality is grounded upon. It is the nature of God that the argument claims morality finds its objective basis.
Okay, there are two issues here. Firstly, I may or may not agree with you here, so I'll present this point for you to clarify. What do you mean by morality? Now, this could go in a few directions so I'll try and make my issue more specific. You claim that morality is grounded in God's nature, but what does that actually lead to? As far as I can tell, all that you mean by morality is 'something grounded in God's nature'.
Perhaps another example would help elucidate this. Say a being existed that was necessary, and possessed none of the traits that God did in terms of morality. Effectively, an 'evil' God. What differentiates God's nature from this other being in terms of whether they are the basis for objective morality?
Now, a second issue I have is more to do with the Moral Argument, rather than the idea that God grounds objective morality. Say that you are correct, and that God does ground objective morality, but that it is not what God does or allows that reflects this. What basis do we have for believing premise two to be true? Examples such as the holocaust can't be used in the normal way because it is clearly not in God's nature to prevent them. We can't point to any example of something we consider to be moral or immoral, because we can't know what God's nature is. To put it in a way you'll appreciate:
1) The Holocaust is wrong, so objective morality exists. 2) Objective morality is grounded in God's nature. 3) God's nature allowed the holocaust to happen. 4) From (3) The holocaust does not conflict with God's nature. 5) Something is wrong if it conflicts with God's nature. 6) (From 1 and 5) The Holocaust conflicts with God's nature. 7) (From 4 and 6) The Holocaust does not conflict with God's nature and the Holocaust does conflict with God's nature.
Now, this isn't an argument against God being the basis for objective morality (I am not arguing that the holocaust happened so God does not exist). But it does undermine the usual basis for premise two of the Moral Argument. It might be true that some things (including the holocaust) are against God's moral nature, but we can't reason to that from any particular event, because God allowed every event to happen.
|
|
Loading...
|
|
|
WLCFan
|
|
Posted 04/24/12
|
Reply with quote
#53
|
|
Quote: Originally Posted by Lawlessone777Sin is immoral behaviour...
As such sin is merely the theological moral linguistic when it comes to specifically divine morality, or from the Christian perspective, the Objective Moral Values which are rooted in Gods nature.
So when you say that 'God does nothing sinful', you mean that 'God acts in God's nature'? A pointless tautology if I've ever seen one. Also, this implies that 'sin' is arbitrarily rooted in God's nature, and that if God commanded the rape of every child, it wouldn't be 'sinful'.
Quote: Let me show you the basic definition of what it is to be good...When a Christian speak of being morally good what they're speaking of is their actions as compared to the Objective Moral Values which are rooted in Gods nature.
So the statement 'God is morally good' also means 'God acts in God's nature.' Brilliant. Again, this also means that your morality is completely arbitrary, and 'good' is simply what God happens to be like.
If God happened to like the rape of children, this would be 'good' by definition.
|
|
Loading...
|
|
|
Lawlessone777
|
|
Posted 04/24/12
|
Reply with quote
#54
|
|
Quote: So when you say that 'God does nothing sinful', you mean that 'God acts in God's nature'? A pointless tautology if I've ever seen one. Also, this implies that 'sin' is arbitrarily rooted in God's nature, and that if God commanded the rape of every child, it wouldn't be 'sinful'.
You're becoming increasingly irrational. The statement 'God does nothing sinful' does, in fact, mean 'God acts according to God's nature'. That is to say that the only thing which restricts God is his own loving nature, because his own nature he does not perform any acts which are considered to be morally evil. He is the personification of goodness and holiness.
And so your claim that God could command that rape is now good completely ignores the fact that the basis of objective moral values is not in Gods' commandment, but Gods' nature. God does not operate against his own nature in his divine commands, and so he would not command the rape of another person because his nature precludes rape as being morally good. This isn't a tautology, it's basic common sense. If I were to tell you that one of your closest friends brutally tortured and murdered a child for fun, you may respond with, "He would never do such a thing," and when I asked why you may say. "Because its' not in his nature."
This sort of observation goes on all the time in the world. One can reasonably assume that commands and actions which are done by an individual are subjected to that persons nature. With regards to God, his nature is perfect, and so the commands and actions he takes come about via his own divine and perfect nature.
Quote: So the statement 'God is morally good' also means 'God acts in God's nature.' Brilliant. Again, this also means that your morality is completely arbitrary, and 'good' is simply what God happens to be like.
If God happened to like the rape of children, this would be 'good' by definition.
You've simply repeated your previous statement, and again you're simply becoming increasingly vitriolic and irrational, something I find very common with you. When you lack any good explanation or rebuttal I'm noticing you simply begin to insult and spout vitriol without responding to someone else's point.
As for my respond to this just see above. God would not command that rape be morally acceptable because it is not in Gods nature to allow rape. This is not an arbitrary or subjective ontological basis for morality, it is an objective one, as Gods nature is binding and objective regardless of human opinion. It surprises me that you're saying this considering the alternative would be a naturalistic ontology for ethics, which would be societal or evolutionary, a relativistic view of morality which is completely subjective.
|
|
Loading...
|
|
|
WLCFan
|
|
Posted 04/24/12
|
Reply with quote
#55
|
|
Quote: Originally Posted by Lawlessone777 You're becoming increasingly irrational. The statement 'God does nothing sinful' does, in fact, mean 'God acts according to God's nature'. That is to say that the only thing which restricts God is his own loving nature, because his own nature he does not perform any acts which are considered to be morally evil. He is the personification of goodness and holiness.
You mean 'God never performs any acts that he doesn't perform.' Any action that God performs would be good by your own definition, including commanding the rape of children.
Quote: And so your claim that God could command that rape is now good completely ignores the fact that the basis of objective moral values is not in Gods' commandment, but Gods' nature. God does not operate against his own nature in his divine commands, and so he would not command the rape of another person because his nature precludes rape as being morally good.
You have defined 'good' to mean 'in accordance with God's nature.' Since what is 'morally good' is what God commands, you are in no position to say what God would or would not command on the basis of it being 'good' or not. This, once again, implies that you are aware of a standard for moral goodness apart from God, something which you have denied vigilantly.
Quote: God would not command that rape be morally acceptable because it is not in Gods nature to allow rape. This is not an arbitrary or subjective ontological basis for morality, it is an objective one, as Gods nature is binding and objective regardless of human opinion. It surprises me that you're saying this considering the alternative would be a naturalistic ontology for ethics, which would be societal or evolutionary, a relativistic view of morality which is completely subjective.
Says who? You have defined goodness to mean 'that which is in accordance with God's nature.' Why couldn't God command, or even take pleasure in, commanding people to rape children? Who are you to say that you think 'rape' is wrong, therefore God wouldn't command it, if your entire concept of 'wrongness' relates to God's commands?
|
|
Loading...
|
|
|
Lawlessone777
|
|
Posted 04/24/12
|
Reply with quote
#56
|
|
Quote: You have defined 'good' to mean 'in accordance with God's nature.' Since what is 'morally good' is what God commands, you are in no position to say what God would or would not command on the basis of it being 'good' or not. This, once again, implies that you are aware of a standard for moral goodness apart from God, something which you have denied vigilantly.
You're again mistaking Divine Command theory and hinting at the Euthyphro Dilemma. And yes, on Christianity I am actually able to say what is right or wrong. Remember we're not talking about overall philosophical discussion about the existence of Objective Moral Values, what you asked me in specificity was where does the Christian ontology specifically derive.
The Christian ontology of objective moral values is based in Gods nature. God is good, he is the personification of goodness, and so any command he gives will be good. I, as a free moral agent, know what is right and what is wrong because I have moral intuition, or to quote the Bible God has written the letter of the law onto my heart. God has also provided special revelation through the Bible.
What you're mistaking is that you think I'm saying I have moral intuition which leads me to conclude that there are objective moral values apart from God which I ascribe too. This is not the Christian view. The Christian view is that we have moral intuition which allows us to understand the nature of God and his perfect morality.
Again you're floating back to the Euthyphro Dilemma. You've also once again floated this conversation back to Moral Epistemology.
Quote: Says who? You have defined goodness to mean 'that which is in accordance with God's nature.' Why couldn't God command, or even take pleasure in, commanding people to rape children? Who are you to say that you think 'rape' is wrong, therefore God wouldn't command it, if your entire concept of 'wrongness' relates to God's commands?
That is the ontological grounding of objective moral values for the Christian Worldview. You asked for the ontology, not the epistemology. The ontology of Christian ethics is grounded within Gods commands, Gods commands are rooted within Gods nature, and Gods commands were revealed to us both through General Revelation and Special Revelation. He not only wrote the law onto our hearts, but also revealed it to us through his son Jesus Christ. That is the ontology of objective moral values on the Christian Worldview.
If you're going to go on and ask how we know those objective moral values are truly what God wants, you're again shifting the conversation back to Moral Epistemology and not Moral Ontology. I've already provided you with an answer to your question.
|
|
Loading...
|
|
|
belorg
|
|
Posted 04/24/12
|
Reply with quote
#57
|
|
|
Let me try to explain my thoughts on this step by step.
'Perfect Goodness' is supposed to be an eesential property of God,
which means that
'Considering X as good and Y as bad' is an essential property of God.
which means that
'Not considering X as good and Y as bad' leads to a logical contradiction.
'X is good' and 'Y is bad' are logically necssary truths.
Which means that morality is grounded in logic.
Which means the premise 'If god does not exist then objective moral values do not exist' is a non-sequitur.
Unless of course logic is also grounded in God's nature, but that is a position that is very hard to defend, and which only a handful of philosophers hold.
I'll illustrate this by a similar argument
1 If 1+ 1 is not 2, then God does not exist 2 1+1 = 2 3 Therefore God exists.
'1 + 1 = 2' seems to be a logically necessary truth, so, by the logic of the moral argument, it should also prove God's existence.
|
|
Loading...
|
|
|
WLCFan
|
|
Posted 04/24/12
|
Reply with quote
#58
|
|
Quote: Originally Posted by Lawlessone777 ...What you're mistaking is that you think I'm saying I have moral intuition which leads me to conclude that there are objective moral values apart from God which I ascribe too. This is not the Christian view. The Christian view is that we have moral intuition which allows us to understand the nature of God and his perfect morality.
Could you be any more ambiguous? What is this 'moral intuition'? Is it how you determine right from wrong? It sounds like you have a very good idea that 'raping children is bad' apart from any reference to God.
Is it this moral intuition that makes you reject the possibility that God would command us to rape children? Are you implying that this 'moral intuition' is only sufficient to understand God's nature, but not to understand what is right and wrong?
|
|
Loading...
|
|
|
Lawlessone777
|
|
Posted 04/24/12
|
Reply with quote
#59
|
|
Quote: Could you be any more ambiguous? What is this 'moral intuition'? Is it how you determine right from wrong? It sounds like you have a very good idea that 'raping children is bad' apart from any reference to God.
Is it this moral intuition that makes you reject the possibility that God would command us to rape children? Are you implying that this 'moral intuition' is only sufficient to understand God's nature, but not to understand what is right and wrong?
Oye...Moral Intuition is the intrinsic understanding of what is right and wrong. In each one of us there is a conscience which determines what we should or should not do. The theological word for this is General Revelation when it comes to Christianity. General Revelation is described as "God writing the law onto our hearts", or more generally God created us with an understanding of our moral duties and values. God gave us a conscience more or less.
Now Christianity preaches that God is the foundation of goodness, and so our General Revelation of what is good and evil is also a general revelation of what God's nature is. We also have the special revelation of what Gods nature is through the Bible and the teachings of Jesus Christ. These revelations were God coming down and explaining things in more detail.
That is the ontological foundation of Christian morality, and why we deem that there are Objective Moral Values. Moral Intuition allows us to understand Gods nature because it's within Gods nature that we see what is right and wrong.
Again, I've given you the Ontological foundation of Christian morality, just like you asked, your attempts to ask how we know these to be true is once again, for the hundredth time, an epistemic question and not an ontological one.
|
|
Loading...
|
|
|
Lawlessone777
|
|
Posted 04/24/12
|
Reply with quote
#60
|
|
Quote: Let me try to explain my thoughts on this step by step.
'Perfect Goodness' is supposed to be an eesential property of God,
which means that
'Considering X as good and Y as bad' is an essential property of God.
which means that
'Not considering X as good and Y as bad' leads to a logical contradiction.
'X is good' and 'Y is bad' are logically necssary truths.
Which means that morality is grounded in logic.
Which means the premise 'If god does not exist then objective moral values do not exist' is a non-sequitur.
Unless of course logic is also grounded in God's nature, but that is a position that is very hard to defend, and which only a handful of philosophers hold.
I'll illustrate this by a similar argument
1 If 1+ 1 is not 2, then God does not exist 2 1+1 = 2 3 Therefore God exists.
'1 + 1 = 2' seems to be a logically necessary truth, so, by the logic of the moral argument, it should also prove God's existence.
......What???
Your conclusion does not follow at all from the premises. I mean whatsoever. If Objective Morality existed and there were things which were morally evil regardless of whose opinion was involved then yes the term "X is evil" would be a necessary truth subject to our epistemic knowledge and understanding of it.
However the conclusion of "therefore logic is grounded in Gods nature" does not at all follow from that. I honestly don't know how you could draw that conclusion from it. Logic is the methodology we use to discern truth values, our own personal logic is not a necessary property of God. To say that reality is contingent upon God would be correct, however to say that Objective Moral Values exist is not to say that logic is also grounded in Gods nature, it is only to say that Objective Moral Values exist. Your conclusion just makes no sense.
|
|
Loading...
|
|