|  New Posts
 
 
 


Reply
 
Author Comment
 
Godboy
Reply with quote  #16 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrashTestAuto
Morality does not have an objective measure in your scenario, apart from closeness to God's nature.  But this means it is useless to describe God as morally perfect.  All that means is that God is exactly like God.

What you are saying is true, except that it's not useless because it informs us about what "God" means and also what morality actually is.  (In the same way, I wouldn't say that the sentence "Males have an XY chromosome" is useless, even though it is essentially a tautology.)  
CrashTestAuto
Reply with quote  #17 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Godboy


What you are saying is true, except that it's not useless because it informs us about what "God" means and also what morality actually is.  (In the same way, I wouldn't say that the sentence "Males have an XY chromosome" is useless, even though it is essentially a tautology.)  

Ah, that is a good point.  However, I stand by that it leaves morality as subjective.  You are choosing God as your standard for morality, when you could have chosen maximal well-being, or any other arbitrary system of morality.  You can not claim that God is the best system, because the measure you are using is defined by God.  God is much worse than maximal well-being, by the standard of maximal well-being.
lionofjudah
Reply with quote  #18 
I think Gods morality is synonymous with maximal well being. The divne commands which flow form his system are whats built into our moral intuitions. 
CrashTestAuto
Reply with quote  #19 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lionofjudah
I think Gods morality is synonymous with maximal well being. The divne commands which flow form his system are whats built into our moral intuitions. 

They aren't built into mine.  I find much of the old testament abhorrent, and even a few of the ten commandments are pushing it.  The anti-homosexuality is against my moral intuition.  Much of what is described as justice is pretty horrible.  The whole original sin thing, as well as the resurrection are pretty nasty.  Hell is about the worst concept ever...
feynman
Reply with quote  #20 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrashTestAuto
Quote:
Originally Posted by Godboy

It's not meaningless.  We can evaluate God's perfection according to how we are limited, i.e., power, knowledge and moral fiber.  So it just means that God is omnipotent, omniscient and incapable of performing any act for which we would be considered blameworthy for enacting.  The third entails moral perfection; God can't tell a lie, steal, cheat, murder, etc. 



Highlighted the important bit again.  Considered blameworthy on what grounds?

Omnipotence has an objective measure: things can be more powerful than others.

Omniscience has an objective measure: People can know more than other.

Morality does not have an objective measure in your scenario, apart from closeness to God's nature.  But this means it is useless to describe God as morally perfect.  All that means is that God is exactly like God.

Well stated. This is a very common word game that theists like to play.

To say that God is morally perfect is to say nothing more than 'God is God'. The question is then, why arbitrarily ground morality in God's nature? Indeed, there are many reasons not to!




lionofjudah
Reply with quote  #21 
Lol Crash your bringing up old testament ethics? Really? Copan deals with this and it is not as abhorrent as any one thinks in fact much of the dealings God has with the israelites are in fact moral. What you find evil is really just a misunderstanding of the text the hebrew, and the context of the text and the concept of God.  But even if the old testament were evil one could readily reject it as being innerant. Im also ambivalent on hell and homosexuality so that needs not play a role in our discussion. Homosexuality however, may go against gods natural order and be against human flourishing I dont know. Plus our moral intuitions are greatly distorted by sin.
CrashTestAuto
Reply with quote  #22 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lionofjudah
Lol Crash your bringing up old testament ethics? Really? Copan deals with this and it is not as abhorrent as any one thinks in fact much of the dealings God has with the israelites are in fact moral. What you find evil is really just a misunderstanding of the text the hebrew, and the context of the text and the concept of God.  But even if the old testament were evil one could readily reject it as being innerant. Im also ambivalent on hell and homosexuality so that needs not play a role in our discussion. Homosexuality however, may go against gods natural order and be against human flourishing I dont know. Plus our moral intuitions are greatly distorted by sin.

I'm bringing up Old Testament ethics among a list of other things, including the resurrection.

One a venn diagram of things I believe are moral, and things associated with the Christian God, the amount of overlap is incredibly small.
feynman
Reply with quote  #23 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lionofjudah
But even if the old testament were evil one could readily reject it as being innerant.

Innerant means 'free of error' so I'll assume you mean the opposite of what you said.

Actually, one couldn't 'readily reject it'. If you're basing morality on God's word, and you know God's word through the Bible, who are you to cherry pick what you find innerant or not? Just how subjective is your supposed 'objective' morality?...
Satarack
Reply with quote  #24 
Quote:
Originally Posted by feynman
Quote:
Originally Posted by lionofjudah
But even if the old testament were evil one could readily reject it as being innerant.

Innerant means 'free of error' so I'll assume you mean the opposite of what you said.

Actually, one couldn't 'readily reject it'. If you're basing morality on God's word, and you know God's word through the Bible, who are you to cherry pick what you find innerant or not? Just how subjective is your supposed 'objective' morality?...

Believe it or not, that is a red herring.  You aren't raising an ontological problem here, you are raising an epistemological problem with our ability to know what the objective morality is.

Your argument is like saying that because we each will have our own subjective interpretation of Shakespeare's intentions in writing King Lear, that therefore there is no objective intention that Shakespeare had in writing the play.  They are just completely separate issues; and simply because we might not epistemic access to God's objective morality does not mean that there is not an objective morality.

Moreover, it's possible to use greatest being theology to give an argument for the existence of objective morality completely apart from any attempt to define what that morality is.  By the nature of what it means to be God, God must be the greatest being that could logically exist.  If there could possibly be a being greater than what we think is God, then in reality what we think is God would not be the true God; but this greater being would.  So understood, God must have all great making properties, including the property of inherent righteousness and goodness.  It would be an objective fact that God would be necessarily good in nature.  Therefore those thoughts and actions that conflict with the nature of God are not good; if there were good actions, then they would have been a part of God's nature and thus would not have conflicted.  But given that they do conflict with God's nature they must necessarily be bad.  This would be true even if we had no idea what God's nature was, or which actions and thoughts conflicted with it.
lionofjudah
Reply with quote  #25 
Have a hot date when I get back you guys are going down! haha 
feynman
Reply with quote  #26 
Quote:
Believe it or not, that is a red herring.  You aren't raising an ontological problem here, you are raising an epistemological problem with our ability to know what the objective morality is.

I'm quite aware that they are different issues.

Quote:
Your argument is like saying that because we each will have our own subjective interpretation of Shakespeare's intentions in writing King Lear, that therefore there is no objective intention that Shakespeare had in writing the play. They are just completely separate issues; and simply because we might not epistemic access to God's objective morality does not mean that there is not an objective morality.

Agreed. 

Now, the reason why divine command theory isn't objective has been discussed above. I was raising a purely epistemological problem and I don't know how you got a different impression.


feynman
Reply with quote  #27 
Quote:
...So understood, God must have all great making properties, including the property of inherent righteousness and goodness.

How do you know God is maximally morally good? This implies you have a standard for moral goodness already, rendering God as a standard unnecessary. 

Or do you not have a standard, in which case you have arbitrarily defined moral goodness as relating to God's nature?

This is the exact same problem.

Godboy
Reply with quote  #28 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrashTestAuto
Quote:
Originally Posted by Godboy


What you are saying is true, except that it's not useless because it informs us about what "God" means and also what morality actually is.  (In the same way, I wouldn't say that the sentence "Males have an XY chromosome" is useless, even though it is essentially a tautology.)  

Ah, that is a good point.  However, I stand by that it leaves morality as subjective.  You are choosing God as your standard for morality, when you could have chosen maximal well-being, or any other arbitrary system of morality.  You can not claim that God is the best system, because the measure you are using is defined by God.  God is much worse than maximal well-being, by the standard of maximal well-being.

Any philosophy of morality necessarily involves a model of personhood upon which the behavior of people should be judged.  In many cases, the model is simply a Platonic ideal.  When you say that morality is determined by maximal well-being, or utilitarianism, or deontological theory or virtue ethics, you are simply positing your own model which happens to include whatever normative ethical base you wish for it to include.

However, God is purportedly the real instantiation of the ideal, a being whose moral nature is epistemically based not on what you wish to conjure arbitrarily but rather on special revelation.  So I didn't just choose God to be the standard of morality; rather, per the law of identity, he's necessarily the real model of personhood if he exists.  If I simply decided to use maximal well-being as my yardstick, I would, as you are doing, be conjuring my model arbitrarily; there's nothing intrinsic to well-being that equates it to moral rightness.  
CrashTestAuto
Reply with quote  #29 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Godboy
Any philosophy of morality necessarily involves a model of personhood upon which the behavior of people should be judged.  In many cases, the model is simply a Platonic ideal.  When you say that morality is determined by maximal well-being, or utilitarianism, or deontological theory or virtue ethics, you are simply positing your own model which happens to include whatever normative ethical base you wish for it to include.

However, God is purportedly the real instantiation of the ideal, a being whose moral nature is based not on what you wish to conjure arbitrarily but rather on special revelation.  So I didn't just choose God to be the standard of morality; rather, per the law of identity, he's necessarily the real model of personhood if he exists.  If I simply decided to use maximal well-being as my yardstick, I would, as you are doing, be conjuring my model arbitrarily; there's nothing intrinsic to well-being that equates it to moral rightness.  

I'm sorry, could you restate this as I couldn't quite understand what you were claiming.  I am assuming that God exists for the purposes of this thread.  Allow me to phrase my problem with a question.  Assuming God exists, how do you decide which of the following reflects true morality:

1) God's nature
2) Hitler's nature
3) Maximisation of well-being
4) Personal preference
5) Other

My argument is that there is no objective basis to choose any of these over the other.  They all objectively exist, and they can all be interpreted as a system of morality.  It is certainly possible to choose one (or reject one as with the Hitler example), but this is a subjective choice.  God has no more objective claim to morality than Hitler does unless you are measuring morality with an external scale, say maximal well-being.
Satarack
Reply with quote  #30 
Quote:
Originally Posted by feynman
Quote:
...So understood, God must have all great making properties, including the property of inherent righteousness and goodness.

How do you know God is maximally morally good? This implies you have a standard for moral goodness already, rendering God as a standard unnecessary. 

Or do you not have a standard, in which case you have arbitrarily defined moral goodness as relating to God's nature?

This is the exact same problem.


This is the exact same red herring as before.  You said you understand the difference between epistemology and ontology, but your argument doesn't seem to reflect that. The chronological order of when I come to know things is not the same as the ontological causal order of their existence.

The moral argument goes like this:

1. If and only if God, then objective morality exists.
2. Objective morality exists
3. Therefore God exists.

Notice the first premise is a bi-conditional statement of equality.  The first premise states that the existence of God is identical to the existence of objective morality.  That is what we are arguing for with greatest being theology; that to know objective morality is to know God himself.  So even though I may have been aware of objective morality chronologically prior to knowing that this objective morality was in fact God; this in no way renders the argument invalid.
Previous Topic | Next Topic
Print
Reply

Quick Navigation:



Important: The Reasonable Faith forums have moved to: www.reasonablefaith.org/forums/






Powered by Website Toolbox - Create a Website Forum Hosting, Guestbook Hosting, or Website Chat Room for your website.