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Zguy28
Reply with quote  #1 
I'm having a discussion with a friend and I'm a little stuck. Maybe somebody can help me out?

By the way, did I mention that he is an open view theist?


Here is how it went:
       
Quote:
                                               
                                                       
Originally Posted by Zguy28
                               
How about the idea that God puts things in motion through His immanence to bring about certain results?

Let me explain.

What if there were a hypothetical individual whose genetic combination was so close to my own that he is identical to me in every respect. He responds as I do in any given situation.

But at one particular point he will choose to turn his head to the right where as I will turn mine to the left. I am not compelled to turn my head to the left, but I freely choose to do so. Now by making sure that it was I, and not my hypothetical double, who came into existence, and setting the circumstances in my life, God rendered it certain that at one particular point I would freely turn my head to the left.
                                       


       
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Originally Posted by LittleJoe
                               
Hi Zguy,

I'm not trying to be rude or condescending here...but your hypothetical needs some work! There are too many things wrong with it. (For instance, genetics don't completely determine how you will respond in certain circumstances, there's moral training, prior experiences,etc...in short environmental conditioning plays a role).

That being said, in your hypothetical, you do NOT turn your head freely! It was preordained by God that you do so...therefore, you had no option to do otherwise.

LJ
                                       


       
Quote:
                                               
                                                       
Originally Posted by Zguy28
                               
I never said genetics completely determined it. Circumstances in my life (foreordained by God) also would.

I think to correctly understand my hypothetical, a distinction must be drawn between the terms predestinate and foreordain.

Foreordain carries a much broader meaning in my opinion. While predestination is limited to Election and Reprobation.

There are two questions that must be addressed when discussing human freedom.

"Could the individual have chosen differently?"

"But would he or she have?"

According to the view I have presented, the answer to the first question is Yes, but the second one is No.

I believe only the first needs to be answered Yes for free will to exist.
                                       



       
Quote:
                                                                                       
Originally Posted by LittleJoe
                               
I will (for now) grant you the first one is the only one that needs to be answered yes. O.K.?

Let's examine the first one logically then.

If you say that God has infinite foreknowledge (EDF) then:

1) God knows every detail of the Future as fact.
This should be no stretch for you.
The result of this is that God knows in certainty the exact future that will play out down to the tiniest details. (EDF)


Therefore it follows that:
2) the Future cannot change in relation to God.
The reason for this is that if the future could ”change” in relation to what God knew to be the future, then #1 would not be true, it would fail. If God knows every detail of the future, then the future cannot change!

Therefore it follows that:
3) NO man can change the future in relation to what God already knows to be the future! Otherwise, 1 & 2 could not be true. They would fall apart!

Therefore it follow that:
4) You could NOT have turned your head the other way. Otherwise, 1, 2, & 3 would fail.

It is a logical impossibility for you to act freely and God to have perfect foreknowledge. Which one would you like to give up?

LJ
Drm970
Reply with quote  #2 
Easy. This argument is a non-sequitur(that means the conclusion doesn't follow). All that follows from (1, 2, 3) is that you WILL not turn your head, not that you CAN not. Your friend is missing premises in his argument.
Luke
Reply with quote  #3 

Drm970 is correct.  The argument is invalid.  It is consistent with the premises to claim that you can turn your head the other way, but if it were true that you would turn your head the other way, the future would have been different, and God would have always known this alternate future.

james
Reply with quote  #4 
Exactly. There's no need to think that God's foreknowledge of a given event E exercises any causal influence over it. God 'foreknows' that E will happen, but it's entirely possible that it won't. It's just that God happens to know that it will. In other words, E will take place - but it will take place contingently.
Tim
Reply with quote  #5 
Definitely. (I needed a one-word reply.) Note that your friend is conflating certainty, which is an epistemic notion, with necessity, which is a modal one.
William
Reply with quote  #6 

Lets think about this.
 
Heres what the argument amounts to. Let P be some action of mine in the future.
 
(1) Necessarily, God knows that I will Q.
(2) Necessarily, If God knows that I will Q, then I will Q.
(3) Necessarily, 'If I will Q, then it is not possible that not Q'
(4) Necessarily, If it is not possible that not Q, then I can not Q freely.
(5) Therefore, necessarily, 'If God knows that I will Q, then I cannot Q freely.'
 
   First thing to notice is that (2) follows from(1) only because knowledge is factive. That is, because knowledge requires truth. So the argument is not specific to theism. Anyone who believes that there is a truth about the future will have this problem.
   If you come to believe that there is no truth about it, then it seems that it should be no problem for God. Omniscience means knowing all truths, and if there is nothing for God to know, well, not his fault.
      Second, there is a notorious problem with the move from (3) to (4). A technical point first. There is a mixing of modalities, and it is not clear that the argument is valid. It does not seem to be necessary in that broadly logical sense that if I will do something that I could not have done something else. Rather there is some sort of relitivized necessity here. Some sort of closedness from causal change. But the past is closed to me, and yet I do not regard my past actions as unfree. I cannot change any of my past actions, unfortunatly, yet I did them freely.
     Furthermore, there seem to be counterexamples to the idea that Free will means, 'could have done otherwise'. See Harry Frankfurt's counterexamples.
      On the other hand, if to be free in regard to some future free action Q is simply for the possibly not Q in the broadly logical sense to be true, then there is no incompatibility between these two statements: 'I will Q', and 'I will freely Q'. For it can be true that in fact I will Q and that insome possible world I did not.
     The bigger lesson here, I think, is that we just do not understand free will very well at all. Free will is a problem for everyone. And so I think we ought to be careful about launching arguments, one way or the other, that depend on their soundess on such a obscure and illusive concept.
Mark
Reply with quote  #7 
Gentlemen,

I have loved your taking on of this topic, of which I am currently engaged in with someone.  I need to get a handle on this, and I need your help.  To me, this does not sound as difficult as my friend seems to be making it.

His comment was:

The question remains, "If an omniscient God exists, what free will can you exercise to do ANYTHING other than exactly what that omniscient God knows ahead of time you are going to do and if you can do nothing other than what God already knows ahead of time you are going to do how does that constitute free will?????

My questions for you all:

 Can you give me a better handle on contingency.  Why do you believe that the concept of foreknowledge leads these folks to demand a causal relationship between omniscience and the actions of free moral creatures?  I tried to make the distinction between foreknowledge and determinism to no avail.

Also, can you elaborate on the problem of conflating epistimic and modal notions. 

I'll be out of town for the holidays, but I will check back in after I return home.

Thanks for your help.

mark


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