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loko5
Reply with quote #1 

I've thought of a paradox concerning God’s omniscience/omnipotence that I have never run across before, although it’s hard for me to believe it has never occurred to anyone.  Maybe someone out there will be familiar with this line of argument and can help me make sense of it:

First I will presume that God is omniscient in the usually defined way, i.e. He knows all true propositions past, present and future.

 

Now, imagine that I am sitting in a restaurant and the waiter offers me a choice of coffee or tea.  At this point, God decides to reveal my future to me, and gives me a vision of His true knowledge of my future; in this vision, I choose coffee.  After this brief vision has ended I, being in a rather contrary mood, then proceed to choose tea.

 

Thus we have a paradox.  If God reveals His knowledge of my future choice to me, by my free will I can choose differently.  If I do choose differently, God’s knowledge is no longer true.  The only way, then, to assure God’s omniscience is to say that God cannot give me this knowledge of the future.  In other words, it seems to me there are three equally unpalatable choices:

 

(1) I do not really have free will; or

(2) God is not truly omniscient about my future in that He cannot be sure of how I will choose; or

(3) If I have free will and God is truly omniscient then He is not truly omnipotent, because He cannot make my future known to me without giving up His omniscience.

 

Between these three, I guess I would lean toward the third one being true and I would have to redefine what we normally think of as omnipotence.

 

Note that this is not just the "can-God-make-a-rock-so-heavy-He-can't-move-it" argument, in that there doesn't appear to be anything logically contradictory about God revealing knowledge of this sort.  In fact, come to think of it God does just such a thing in the gospel accounts, where Jesus tells Peter that Peter will deny him 3 times before the cock crows.  In this case, it appears that Peter didn't remember the prediction until after the cock crowed.  Is it possible that God could have implanted a temporary amnesia in Peter's mind to protect His omniscience?

vanhornluke
Reply with quote #2 

If God reveals to you that you will choose coffee, then you will choose coffee.  However, it does not follow that you could not choose tea.  You really could choose tea.  However, if you were to choose tea, then God would not have revealed to you that you will choose coffee (for, of course, if you will choose tea, then God believes you will choose tea and not lie to you by saying you'll choose coffee).  There is a backtracking counterfactual at play here.  If you were to choose to do something that is contrary to what God has revealed to you, then the past would have been different.

loko5
Reply with quote #3 
Quote:
Originally Posted by vanhornluke

If God reveals to you that you will choose coffee, then you will choose coffee.  However, it does not follow that you could not choose tea.  You really could choose tea.  However, if you were to choose tea, then God would not have revealed to you that you will choose coffee (for, of course, if you will choose tea, then God believes you will choose tea and not lie to you by saying you'll choose coffee).  There is a backtracking counterfactual at play here.  If you were to choose to do something that is contrary to what God has revealed to you, then the past would have been different.


OK, that's about as clear as mud, but I think I see what you're saying.  God knows if His revelation of the future would change my choice.  So if I would have chosen coffee without the revelation, but will instead choose tea if He makes the revelation, then God would not make that revelation to me.  This still seems to me to limit God's omnipotence, however.  If God knows I would freely choose to act differently if he reveals how I will act, then God is de facto prohibited from making that revelation.  To do so would make God a liar, since I will in fact choose differently from what is revealed.
DouglasMoore
Reply with quote #4 
Yeah, I think you've hoodwinked yourself a bit here with words. You say God reveals his "true knowledge" of the future. But, in reality, that knowledge isn't true at all. This doesn't seem to be a genuine paradox like "this sentence is false", but I could be wrong.
forhisglory
Reply with quote #5 
I think I agree Douglas. If God knows the future (which He does), then what He would reveal to you would be the truth. The fact that you wouldn't be able to order tea when God said you'd have coffee doesn't necessarily take away your free will. It could be that the cafe is out of tea when you order so you end up with coffee after all. I do think this ends up being a "can God make a rock so big He can't move it" or "can God make a square circle" type thing even though you don't see it that way. We simply can't completely comprehend the depth of God's knowledge and omniscience, which frankly, I think is a good thing
Rick_Blaine
Reply with quote #6 
Loko's paradox sounds like it might be related to Newcomb's paradox. WLC discusses Newcomb's paradox and divine foreknowledge here.
bcaserto
Reply with quote #7 

Quote:

(1) I do not really have free will; or

(2) God is not truly omniscient about my future in that He cannot be sure of how I will choose; or

(3) If I have free will and God is truly omniscient then He is not truly omnipotent, because He cannot make my future known to me without giving up His omniscience.



Why can't there be a 4th option?

(4)  I have free will and God is truly omniscient, and God is Omnipotent

Your 3 rd point assumes that Gods omniscience is static- that once he tells someone the future then he is restricted from either viewing the future or revealing anything new about the situation he just told that person of.

But doesnt it make sense that when certain facts are made known to people they will alter their future choices?

And if people can change their choices, why do you assume that God would not know the moment you change your mind?

I imagine the situation this way:

1- At a certain moment in time God views you in the future drinking coffee.
2- He then tells you that you will order the coffee
3- You hear God say this and in your mind you think, "well then, Ill prove God wrong and order tea".
4- God knows you had this thought, and so in his mind he predicts that you will order earl grey tea
5- You order Earl Grey tea

Now if God had told you that he had a new vision as you thought about ordering tea you may have changed your mind again.  But I believe God can keep up with all your flip-flopping changes.

Also, regarding omnipotence, just because God could do anything doesnt mean he will do anything, especially at the expense of out free will.


Apologian
Reply with quote #8 
The example that was stated first, is actually an example of God's middle knowledge. If you could choose to do the opposite of what God supposedly foreknew, then it was not foreknowledge in the first place. We should look at the biblical example in 1 Samuel 23, where David had the Divining rod, and asked it what the future was. David then chose to not do as the divining rod stated was going to happen, and therefore it was not the actual future, just what WOULD have happened IF the circumstances were different. Lets not try to make a paradox out of a misunderstanding of God's foreknowledge and His middle knowledge. God's ABSOLUTE foreknowledge cannot be wrong, unless it was only middle knowledge, and what WOULD have happened IF something else were the case.
loko5
Reply with quote #9 

I think you are misunderstanding the paradox.  Let me put it this way.  It is a fact that I will order either coffee or tea (assuming for the the sake of argument that nothing else happens, like I drop dead first or the restaurant catches fire and has to be evacuated, etc.).  If we assume that God is omniscient about all future events, in that he knows before I order (indeed, from all eternity) which I will freely choose, then it seems to me that my point number (3) must be true.  That is, the combination of divine omniscience and libertarian free will implies that God cannot completely divulge to me the future regarding my choice.  Perhaps it is incorrect to call this a paradox, since I don't think that the result is necessarily problematic.  But it does give some insight into the nature of divine omnipotence.  It's just not logically possible for God to reveal this aspect of the future to me while maintaining my free will.

Apologian
Reply with quote #10 
I understand what it is that you are saying. But, I will still say that if God divulged to you what you were going to order, that this divulging was not God's Absolute foreknowledge but merely His middle knowledge, being that God knew(eternally) that He was going to divulge this information to you, and knew what you would still freely choose if He gave you His knowledge of your choice, and being that you could freely choose to order differently, this proves that this was not God's absolute foreknowledge, just middle knowledge(counterfactual). I agree that it is impossible for God to divulge His absolute foreknowledge and still allow you to have libertarian free-will, because then you could change it and contradict God. We are in agreement, I was just stating that what it was that God divulged to you would have had to have been middle knowledge. So I agree that the proposition(3) you gave is true, and not a paradox. A paradox would be absurd and illogical, not just false.
Steve
Reply with quote #11 

Here's one for you....
God did not show you the entirety of your future, only the parts that he felt would be of sufficient value as to affect your life in a manner that would bring you closer in relationship with him.

Which would in fact be in line with his explcitly stated will-- in the bible. I.e., he desires that we trust him with our lives, and will provide to us exactly what we need, at the moment of that need, and nothing more/less for the purpose of drawing us closer to him.

It seems to me that your ideas lack the one imperative aspect-- the personality of God, as having the freedom to give, and retain what he wills to those to whom he wills, as he chooses. Completely separate from what you will, etc.....

All of this gives me the sense that we are lacking a grasp on God's personality, as a real being-- with feelings, choice, reasoning, logic, etc.....

The only things we can know of God are:
1- what he's revealed about himself to humanity-- through the bible.
2- what he reveals to us, as individuals, about himself-- following his revelation in the bible, for further clarification of the bible.
3- futures that he chooses to reveal that cannot be affected by our choices-- not because we choose to go left, when we THINK he said we'd be going right. In my experiences, I've found these to be the "dejavu" moments of my life.



While we can think we can know more, we'll always be limited by our capacity to perceive the reality in which we live.


By way of personal testimony, as a young follower of Jesus, I spent the first nine or so months of my christian experience walking around in a state of de ja vu, constantly. Then one day it just faded from my existence.
It wasn't until later on that I began realizing that I would dream an entire day's events, the night before, down to fairly great detail, and then have this constant sense of de ja vu throughout my days.
As I grew older, and started pondering these things, it dawned on me that God decided that I needed to know that he knew how each day of my life would play out before I did, and as such, decided to "reveal" it to me the night before. I.e., no event was too small, or insignificant to him, with regards to me. He knew me......

and to be clear-- I did not ask for this dream state every night. It began on its own, and then ended just as quickly, never to occur again.

A couple of years later, I remember "playing a game" with God, that I called the - I-can-do-it-before-you-know - game. Based on Romans 8:29-31-- for whom he foreknew, them he also predestined.......
While I was being serious, I was also trying to understand this concept. I suppose you could say that I was testing the memories I had of those nine months. As you might have guessed, it didn't last long- a few days I think it was; as I quickly realized that with each choice I'd made, he was already aware of it, and no choice that I could make would catch him off guard-- which was exactly my goal. While I have indeed had my struggles with my faith over the years, it's given me a sense of security that regardless of what I've gone through-- he's aware of me, and my state at any given time in my life-- which is supported by the scriptures-- Isa. 49-- I've engraved you into the palms of my hands, and your walls are ever before me.....
So, go for it-- play the I can do it without your knowing- game. If your faith in Christ is real, and you do in fact take him at his written word, I'm just as sure that you too will find that God knew full well what you were doing-- long before you ever even imagined doing so.
I have confidence in Christ, that it'll make you a stronger follower later when it matters.


 
MorleyMcMorson
Reply with quote #12 
Quote:
Originally Posted by loko5

I've thought of a paradox concerning God’s omniscience/omnipotence that I have never run across before, although it’s hard for me to believe it has never occurred to anyone.  Maybe someone out there will be familiar with this line of argument and can help me make sense of it:

First I will presume that God is omniscient in the usually defined way, i.e. He knows all true propositions past, present and future.

 

Now, imagine that I am sitting in a restaurant and the waiter offers me a choice of coffee or tea.  At this point, God decides to reveal my future to me, and gives me a vision of His true knowledge of my future; in this vision, I choose coffee.  After this brief vision has ended I, being in a rather contrary mood, then proceed to choose tea.

 

Thus we have a paradox.  If God reveals His knowledge of my future choice to me, by my free will I can choose differently.  If I do choose differently, God’s knowledge is no longer true.  The only way, then, to assure God’s omniscience is to say that God cannot give me this knowledge of the future.  In other words, it seems to me there are three equally unpalatable choices:

 

(1) I do not really have free will; or

(2) God is not truly omniscient about my future in that He cannot be sure of how I will choose; or

(3) If I have free will and God is truly omniscient then He is not truly omnipotent, because He cannot make my future known to me without giving up His omniscience.

 

Between these three, I guess I would lean toward the third one being true and I would have to redefine what we normally think of as omnipotence.

 

Note that this is not just the "can-God-make-a-rock-so-heavy-He-can't-move-it" argument, in that there doesn't appear to be anything logically contradictory about God revealing knowledge of this sort.  In fact, come to think of it God does just such a thing in the gospel accounts, where Jesus tells Peter that Peter will deny him 3 times before the cock crows.  In this case, it appears that Peter didn't remember the prediction until after the cock crowed.  Is it possible that God could have implanted a temporary amnesia in Peter's mind to protect His omniscience?

I think this so-called paradox can be avoided if one keeps in mind that God knows how you would freely respond to any revelation he might give you.  He knows that such-and-such a revelation would result in such-and-such a reaction on your part for any possible revelation he might give.  However, since God is omniscient, this means that there are certain revelations God would never make.  If a revelation that you'll do X would lead to action Y on your part, then this is a revelation God would never make.  There are revelations, however, that could obviously be fitted with corresponding reactions, and these are the only kind that God would make.  So God can reveal the future to you and you can still be free, it's just that God will only make such revelations if, on the hypothesis that the revelation has been given, you will freely do what the revelation says you will do.
loko5
Reply with quote #13 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MorleyMcMorson
I think this so-called paradox can be avoided if one keeps in mind that God knows how you would freely respond to any revelation he might give you.  He knows that such-and-such a revelation would result in such-and-such a reaction on your part for any possible revelation he might give.  However, since God is omniscient, this means that there are certain revelations God would never make.  If a revelation that you'll do X would lead to action Y on your part, then this is a revelation God would never make.  There are revelations, however, that could obviously be fitted with corresponding reactions, and these are the only kind that God would make.  So God can reveal the future to you and you can still be free, it's just that God will only make such revelations if, on the hypothesis that the revelation has been given, you will freely do what the revelation says you will do.

I think you're right, but this view requires that molinism be true, i.e. God must have middle knowledge of what my response would be if He made such a revelation.  Perhaps this could be considered a good argument for a molinst view.  Without such middle knowledge, God's omnipotence would be diminished.

MorleyMcMorson
Reply with quote #14 

Quote:
Originally Posted by loko5
I think you're right, but this view requires that molinism be true, i.e. God must have middle knowledge of what my response would be if He made such a revelation.  Perhaps this could be considered a good argument for a molinst view.  Without such middle knowledge, God's omnipotence would be diminished.

I think prophecy is one of the best reasons for theists to be Molinists.  Without Molinism, God can't be sure that his prophecies will come true, at least not without personally causing them to.
_CTD_
Reply with quote #15 
The issue is resolved already. Simon Peter denied being Jesus' disciple. God knows your heart better than you yourself.
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