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Originally Posted by
harvey1Quote:
Originally Posted by fredonly
And yet, a number of scholars who have applied the historical-critical method to the data have drawn this conclusion that Jesus was an apocalyptic prophet. I'm not arguing from authority that they're right, but I think it's wrong headed to suggest that they're all naïve. They have some good arguments. The methodology is based on treating the Bible as they would any other historical documents, which obviously means leaving Christian assumptions at the door. They employ the historical method in their analysis (source criticism, external and internal criticism, and historical reasoning). This considers the genre, and the implications of the genre. It considers literary relationships between the Gospels, the historical and cultural environment in which they were written. It considers the authorship (what can we surmise about the authors?), how the authors beliefs would influence the content, and the likely dates of the writings. Like any historical document, it contains data of varying degrees of reliability and attempts to sort that out. History is not an exact science, but it does the best it can with the data that is available.
There's
a lot of theories. I think naive is a good choice of words given that a strict eschatological view doesn't account for the wisdom sage theory and other theories.
Why would you expect each theory to account for each alternative theory? Each theory has to account for the evidence. The question is which theory provides the best explanation of the evidence. Formulators of theories obviously feel theirs is the best, and they sometimes do compare their theories to others to make their case.
What is naïve about applying the historical method to the data? Different theories come out of it because there's not much data to go on. Consequently, any broad theory is built from layers of hypotheses. Each hypothesis is an opportunity for error. . E.P. Sanders describes the process in an intellectually honest manner:
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Originally Posted by Sanders
…one should begin with what is relatively secure and work out to more uncertain points. But finding agreement about the ground rules by which what is relatively secure can be identified is very difficult….There is, as is usual in dealing with historical questions, no opening which does not involve one in a circle of interpretation, that is, which does not depend on points which in turn require us to understand others. Historians always work in this kind of circle, moving from evidence to tentative conclustions, then back to the evidence with renewed insight, and so on….We start by determining the evidence which is most secure….
Sanders proceeds to describe the process that entails developing historical hypotheses from the “most secure” evidence, and then adding additional layers of hypothesis from this foundation. Even the “most secure” evidence is somewhat tenuous, but each subsequent layer becomes increasingly so because it depends on more and more speculation, educated guesses based on the hypotheses of the previous layer. (Taken from E.P. Sanders, Jesus and Judaism).
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Originally Posted by
harvey1Quote:
Originally Posted by fredonly
Christians tend to treat the Gospels as veridical history, and interpret them through their faith. This is fine for Christians qua Christians, but it's not pure history – it's apologetics, or (at best) an apologetic history.
How is this different than me saying that the blogger is interpreting his views from a biased point of view? I have good evidence of bias because he mentioned the Book of Revelation which was written over 60 years from Jesus' death. I don't think any scholar would make such an argument.
I'm fine with dismissing the blogger; he's not making an argument – just making a statement. I'm just not fine with dismissing the scholars who's work he is quoting.
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Originally Posted by
harvey1Quote:
Originally Posted by fredonly
Regarding Thomas: this was a later Gospel used be a group of Gnostics, who appear to have embraced some of Jesus' teaching. Being written in the 2nd century, it shouldn't be surprising that they wouldn't deal with an imminent apocalypse.
The date of Thomas is uncertain. However, there's
good evidence to indicate that Thomas has a connection directly to Jesus independent of Q and the Gospels.
An independent connection is plausible, but your original comment about Q was unwarranted, when you said, "One main problem for him is that the Q and Thomas community kept the words of Jesus without any eschatological references."
The lack of eschatological reference in Thomas tells us more about the Christians who wrote and used it than about Jesus.
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Originally Posted by
harvey1Quote:
Originally Posted by fredonly
Regarding the Q Gospel, it's quite consistent with an apocalyptic hypothesis, for example
Q is not as consistent as you suggest. For example, Crossan quotes David Seeley to emphasize this point:
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...futuristic eschatology never appears in those passages where the ethics and values on which a community might be based are set forth. Instead, with two exceptions it appears only in those situations where the ethics and values have already been set forth. . . Even in the two exceptions, there continues to be no link between futuristic eschatology and social formation. . . when one seeks out Q passages which do contain ethics and values, they are resistant to being read in futuristic, eschatological terms. (JDC, "The Birth of Christianity," p.264)
Crossan states, "His conclusion, like Kloppenborg's is that 'futuristic, eschatology was a late development in the Q community, which was built up without it... Later on, after the community encountered resistance by outsiders and doubts by insiders, it employed futuristic, eschatological threats.'"
You're misinterpreting Crossan regarding Q. He agrees the references to the kingdom are eschatological, where he differs (subtly) is in the type of eschatology that he believes is revealed. In this book, he's primarily discussing early Christianity, not primarily Jesus. Crossan observes that various eschatologies are present in early Christianity. In his earlier book, Excavating Jesus,he deals more directly with Jesus. On page 174, he says:
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Originally Posted by Crossan
A major debate among contemporary scholars concerns whether the historical Jesus was an apocalyptic or nonapocalyptic figure. Quite often the disagreement gets nowhere, as both sides fail in any detailed analysis of those twin options…. Our general hope in this book is to get beyond the impasse by insisting on the continuum in basic content from a coventantal through an eschatological to an apocalyptic Kingdom of God. Our specific hope in this conclusion is to locate Jesus and the Kingdom of God movement more accurately among those first-century apocalypticists and/or protesters.
So I don't really think Crossan rejects the notion of Jesus as an apocalypticist so much as he wants to clarify something more specific about the message he was conveying.