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Tim
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Posted 07/31/12
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#16
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Quote: Originally Posted by Jungleman528Quote: Originally Posted by stephenmills1000The irony of your friend's statement... Quote: being a decent human being means not expecting others to adhere to your moral code can be found immediately following: Quote: not hating others, or attempting to legislate others, because you disagree with what they think is 'decent' or 'right.' The way your neighbor lives (if inside the bounds of the law) has no effect on you, it should be of no concern. as what he says is in fact an expectation of how people should adhere to a moral code (specifically his ideas of what they should be), something he explicitly condemned in his preceding statement. While noble, it remains hypocritical. I generally agree with what you said at the beginning, and it's a shame really that it has gone from rational and level-headed discourse about differeces to expecting others to adhere to your views at risk of being ridiculed and/or socially ostracized. So I said this to my friend (about the irony), and his reply was "Treating others with dignity and basic respect isn't a part of 'morality.' it is the fundamental basis of human dignity."
Tell him he's missing the point: the problem is his reasoning is self-defeating. On his own view, those who say what others ought/ought not do ought not ever do that (they're hateful and dignity-violators, no less, he says). But in doing that, he's telling you what you ought/ought not ever do. So to enforce his own principle, he has to violate it. Or, to say it another way, if his principle is true, it's false, and if it's false, it's false.
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Tim
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Posted 07/31/12
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#17
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By the way, jungleman, don't call the problem "irony." It may be that, but irony is merely a linguistic device. Tell him the problem is specifically that it's self-defeating.
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troyjs
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Posted 08/01/12
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#18
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Quote: How does Gay Marriage affect you?
Suppose gay marriage in itself, affects does not affect anyone.
How we act, and what we do in regards to the recognition of gay marriage in the society we live, however, can affect us personally.
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stephenmills1000
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Posted 08/01/12
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#19
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Quote: Originally Posted by Jungleman528
So I said this to my friend (about the irony), and his reply was "Treating others with dignity and basic respect isn't a part of 'morality.' it is the fundamental basis of human dignity."
This presumes "human dignity" is a virtuous trait, which would in fact be based inside a moral code, but that's a whole other conversation...
I would agree with what your friend says, though it differs from the thrust of his initial argument, in which he presented and idea of how people in general should act- the very thing he condemned- whereas now, although slightly allusory to the general population, he proclaims a personal responsibility, and an admirable one at that.
I would wonder now where your friend bases these moral ideas he has in- what informs him to treat others this way, or that people should act in certain ways? If the answer is something like "it's intuitive," well what about those whose intuitions tell them to lie, cheat, and steal? Are they "wrong?"
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Jungleman528
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Posted 08/01/12
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#20
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So here's what I said to my friend, and then I will put his response.
Me: Where does the fundamental basis come from? What are you basing these moral ideas in?
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Jungleman528
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Posted 08/01/12
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#21
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I'm thinking... red herring...red herring...Just because something is old, doesnt make it obsolete. Most modes of thought today come from centuries ago (Aristotle, Plato, etc).
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stephenmills1000
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Posted 08/01/12
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#22
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Quote: Originally Posted by Jungleman528
I'm thinking... red herring...red herring...Just because something is old, doesnt make it obsolete. Most modes of thought today come from centuries ago (Aristotle, Plato, etc).
Agreed. As I am beginning to become somewhat of an armchair philosopher thanks to this forum, even I can spot them in there. So you really never got an answer!
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