| itsallgood |
| Posted 05/10/12 at 02:11 AM | Reply with quote #1 |
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A step in the right direction by California.
Less suicides and mental health issues due to this destructive practice has to be a good thing right.
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| idunno |
| Posted 05/10/12 at 02:13 AM | Reply with quote #2 |
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| I'll check it out but what about those who want to change?
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| itsallgood |
| Posted 05/10/12 at 02:27 AM | Reply with quote #3 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by idunno I'll check it out but what about those who want to change?
They can now be pleased that electroshock and other torturous methods that do not work will not be used.
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| idunno |
| Posted 05/10/12 at 02:31 AM | Reply with quote #4 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by itsallgoodQuote: Originally Posted by idunno I'll check it out but what about those who want to change? They can now be pleased that electroshock and other torturous methods that do not work will not be used.
Wow, posted that in ignorance of what the treatment actually was  |
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| itsallgood |
| Posted 05/10/12 at 02:34 AM | Reply with quote #5 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by idunnoQuote: Originally Posted by itsallgoodQuote: Originally Posted by idunno I'll check it out but what about those who want to change? They can now be pleased that electroshock and other torturous methods that do not work will not be used.
Wow, posted that in ignorance of what the treatment actually was 
You mean you are unaware that in some cases they use electric shock aversion therapy?
Ignorance indeed.
Quote: Behavioral modificationDouglas Haldeman writes in "Sexual Orientation Conversion Therapy for Gay Men and Lesbians: A Scientific Examination" that early behavioral forms of conversion therapy mainly employed aversive conditioning techniques, involving electric shock and nausea-inducing drugs during presentation of same-sex erotic images. Cessation of the aversive stimuli was typically accompanied by the presentation of opposite-sex erotic images, with the objective of strengthening heterosexual feelings. Haldeman discusses the work of M. P. Feldman, who in "Aversion therapy for sexual deviation: a critical review", published in 1966, claimed a 58% cure rate. Haldeman is skeptical that such stressful methods permit feelings of sexual responsiveness, and notes that Feldman defined success as suppression of homosexuality and increased capacity for heterosexual behavior. Haldeman also discusses the covert sensitization method, which involves instructing patients to imagine vomiting or receiving electric shocks, writing that only single case studies have been conducted, and that their results cannot be generalized. He writes that behavioral conditioning studies tend to decrease homosexual feelings, but do not increase heterosexual feelings, citing Rangaswami's "Difficulties in arousing and increasing heterosexual responsiveness in a homosexual: A case report", published in 1982, as typical in this respect. Haldeman concludes that such methods applied to anyone except gay people would be called torture , writing, "Individuals undergoing such treatments do not emerge heterosexually inclined; rather they become shamed, conflicted, and fearful about their homosexual feelings." Haldeman writes in "Gay Rights, Patient Rights: The Implications of Sexual Orientation Conversion Therapy" that aversive treatments sometimes involved the application of electric shock to the hands and/or genitals, or nausea-inducing drugs, administered simultaneously with the presentation of homoerotic stimuli, while less cruel methods included mastabatory conditioning, visualization, and social skills training.
All of these methods were based on the idea that homosexuality is a learned behavior that can be reconditioned.
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| johnBee |
| Posted 05/10/12 at 02:37 AM | Reply with quote #6 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by idunno I'll check it out but what about those who want to change?
I'd ask the same question. Though I will admit that I don't know anything about the process and so I won't try and comment on that part of the issue.
Children, I can see. But what about adults who want to change? Would this affect them also?
I've met a few people who were not happy with their gay tendencies at all. In fact.. they were very depressed as a result of that and so they sought psychiatric help as a result. To which I'd ask.. if being gay is nothing more than a part of social or biological evolution then shouldn't an individual have the right to accept or deny his sexual orientation?
My two cents.
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| idunno |
| Posted 05/10/12 at 02:38 AM | Reply with quote #7 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by itsallgoodQuote: Originally Posted by idunnoQuote: Originally Posted by itsallgoodQuote: Originally Posted by idunno I'll check it out but what about those who want to change? They can now be pleased that electroshock and other torturous methods that do not work will not be used.
Wow, posted that in ignorance of what the treatment actually was  You mean you are unaware that in some cases they use electric shock aversion therapy? Ignorance indeed.
indeed, ignorance indeed. |
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| itsallgood |
| Posted 05/10/12 at 02:44 AM | Reply with quote #8 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by johnBee
Children, I can see. But what about adults who want to change? Would this affect them also?
Why would they want to change in a society that accepted and supported them?
Quote: I've met a few people who were not happy with their gay tendencies at all. In fact.. they were very depressed as a result of that and so they sought psychiatric help as a result. To which I'd ask.. if being gay is nothing more than a part of social or biological evolution then shouldn't an individual have the right to accept or deny his sexual orientation?
My two cents.
They can accept or deny it on a individual basis but the fact is that they cannot be forced to undergo methods that do not work and cause harm.
And as above why would they want or care about changing in a society that fully accepted them for who they are.
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| johnBee |
| Posted 05/10/12 at 02:52 AM | Reply with quote #9 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by itsallgood Why would they want to change in a society that accepted and supported them? Some people want to reap the rewards of having a relationship that will produce children of their own(ie heterosexual relationships), whereas others simply don't want to be different. Then there are those who don't like the idea that they cannot experience what others experience, and of course those genuinely seeking to do right by God. And though I'm sure their are numerous other reasons too, but these are some of the reasons that I've encountered over the years.
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| itsallgood |
| Posted 05/10/12 at 12:13 PM | Reply with quote #10 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by johnBee
Some people want to reap the rewards of having a relationship that will produce children of their own(ie heterosexual relationships), whereas others simply don't want to be different. Then there are those who don't like the idea that they cannot experience what others experience, and of course those genuinely seeking to do right by God. And though I'm sure their are numerous other reasons too, but these are some of the reasons that I've encountered over the years.
Theres plenty of ways a person can have a child thanks to science without the need for actual sex.
The rest is really just a result of peer pressure and societal issues that need to be changed.
As far as god is concerned they should find a better superstition as according to Christianity he supposedly made them the way they are.
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| TheProblemOfAtheism |
| Posted 05/10/12 at 12:19 PM | Reply with quote #11 |
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| If they do indeed ban it, it will be a terrible thing.
Gay people will be robbed of their freedom to engage in the kind of therapy they want. Alternatives will be stifled. Freedom and self-determination will be infringed upon.
And all in the name of poor science. I haven't seen any studies showing any causal relationship between this kind of therapy and suicide. |
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| johnBee |
| Posted 05/10/12 at 12:30 PM | Reply with quote #12 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by itsallgood Theres plenty of ways a person can have a child thanks to science without the need for actual sex. That's true. Then again.. I'm not sure if this somehow addresses the need to reap the rewards of love between two people. One my older aunts who's been in lesbian relationships for the majority of her life expressed how painful it was to live life knowing she would never experience the joy of having a child with her partner. Likewise, she also explained that this would prove to be one of the most painful times in her life as her biological clock(so to speak) was calling for such a thing both physically and emotionally. Granted, there was adoption(in her day), though I don't think this was the issue.
Having said that, I do recall her saying without prejudice that if she had the choice, that should accept being "normal" (her words btw) any day rather than having to live life the way she did.
Quote: The rest is really just a result of peer pressure and societal issues that need to be changed. I'm not entirely convinced of this myself. And don't get me wrong, I'm not discounting the fact that the world is rampant with sexual discrimination(there's no questioning that). However... I think there exists a real need in each and every one of us to maximize our potential when it comes to such things as fulfillment and happiness. ie. people want what others have etc.
Quote: As far as god is concerned they should find a better superstition as according to Christianity he supposedly made them the way they are. I think alot of people feel this way. And interestingly enough, there is always the option of finding a religion which permits or supports ones sexual orientation. However, I don't think we could conclude that the Christian God created gays given that the world is currently under Satan's rule. ie. a result of imperfection.
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| gregwilson |
| Posted 05/10/12 at 12:34 PM | Reply with quote #13 |
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Quote: Less suicides and mental health issues due to this destructive practice has to be a good thing right.
On what grounds? In a world where God exists and people are moral agents which can understand right and wrong and beings with a purpose, I would say the reduction of both suicides and mental health problems is good.
On the other hand, if a predilection toward homosexuality is merely a strange evolutionary adaptation which some people genetically receive, then arguably "homophobia" is likewise a strange evolutionary adaptation which some people genetically receive. So why take the side of one evolutionary adaptation over the other?
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| TheProblemOfAtheism |
| Posted 05/10/12 at 12:35 PM | Reply with quote #14 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by gregwilsonQuote: Less suicides and mental health issues due to this destructive practice has to be a good thing right.
On what grounds? In a world where God exists and people are moral agents which can understand right and wrong and beings with a purpose, I would say the reduction of both suicides and mental health problems is good. On the other hand, if a predilection toward homosexuality is merely a strange evolutionary adaptation which some people genetically receive, then arguably "homophobia" is likewise a strange evolutionary adaptation which some people genetically receive. So why take the side of one evolutionary adaptation over the other?
So why take the side of one evolutionary adaptation over the other?
Prejudice. That's why. |
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| idunno |
| Posted 05/10/12 at 12:59 PM | Reply with quote #15 |
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Quote: And as above why would they want or care about changing in a society that fully accepted them for who they are.
itsallgood, are you saying that the only reason some homosexuals want to change is because of what society thinks? Denying that some want to change seems to me to be the same thing as denying that they were born that way. In both cases your calling into question the motivation for their behavior. |
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