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Tisthammerw
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Posted 01/20/12
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#586
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Symbol recap:
- R = One's cognitive faculties are reliable.
- N = naturalism is true.
- E = evolution is true.
- Pr(R|N&E) = the probability that R is true given that N and E are both true.
The Post
Tu Quoque
Quote: Originally Posted by afunugsamongusQuote: Originally Posted by TisthammerwQuote: Originally Posted by afunugsamongus Then your work is cut out for you: show that N&E reduces the probability of R. It is not enough to show that P(R|N&E) is low or inscrutable; you must also argue that P(R) is relatively high from a standpoint agnostic about N&E. Well, it seems that if R is properly basic then it is justified and one would thus presumably award it with a respectably high epistemic probability. R is not properly basic since it is defeasible; and while R is a reasonable default assumption, that doesn't make P(R) high in the relevant sense. When evaluating P(R|N&E) you considered only what we could deduce from N&E, not what we could reasonably assume given our pragmatic needs. Applying the same criteria to P(R), it is inscrutable. So P(R|N&E) is not less than P(R). Why think that for a belief to be properly basic it must be indefeasible? Very few beliefs are properly basic if that's the case. For example, consider a hypothetical man named Thomas Anderson. A bald black man says to him, "How do you know that what you've seen around you is real rather than a computer-generated dream world?" Mister Anderson replies, "It's a properly basic belief that the world I've seen around me is real." Then Anderson wakes up to find that it was a computer-generated dream world after all. Far-fetched? Maybe, but it's metaphysically possible and it could potentially make for a really awesome sci-fi action movie called, "And you thought Cartesian skepticism was boring." Seriously though, I think this case shows that some properly basic beliefs are defeasible.
Let B be our epistemic base (memories, sensory experiences, and so on). If R is properly basic then it is justified and thus one would presumably award it a respectably high epistemic probability for it, such that Pr(R|B) is respectably high. Where T is theism, the following seems to be true:
Pr(R|T) ≥ Pr(R|B)
In contrast, I believe this is true:
Pr(R|N&E) < Pr(R|B)
Quote: Originally Posted by afunugsamongus Furthermore, if you're allowed to isolate N&E out from the evolutionary context that evidently determined our reliability, why not go a step further and consider P(R) given, say, atomic theory? The probability of R given that we're made of atoms seems low/inscrutable for the same reasons as P(R|N&E). If we have evidence for high P(R), though, it seems that ought to win. You cannot dismiss it from mere skepticism about R, because the 'drug' - N&E, atomic theory, etc. - also depends on R. I'm not sure what you're saying here. Are you asking why the likelihood of R on atomic theory being low does not serve as a defeater for R? If so, I would note that I am eschewing a general principle of defeat here with respect to the Defeater Thesis, relying instead on analogies. I should also point out that neither myself nor Plantinga has assumed that Pr(A|B) being low entails that B is a defeater for A.
The Defeater Thesis
Quote: Originally Posted by afunugsamongusQuote: On that note, let's consider some scenarios. All five scenarios miss the essential distinction between low P(R) given drug XX, and "low or inscrutable" P(R) given N&E. That sort of thing didn't seem to stop you before:
Quote: Originally Posted by afunugsamongusQuote: Or maybe age has something to do with it. Do we agree that if I knowingly took drug XX at an unusually spirited 21st birthday party, I would have a defeater for R for me? If so, suppose my very first memories are ingesting drug XX as a three-year-old boy, knowing full well that it has a 95% chance of making my cognitive faculties unreliable. Would this defeat my belief in R? Now suppose for some reason the causes for cognitive unreliability via N&E for some odd reason don't affect us until we are three-years-old, close to where we have our first memories, but I also somehow know (being taught before N&E affect happened) that the probability that N&E would so negatively affect my cognitive faculties is 95%. I don't recall though whether I'd be among the lucky ones. Do I have a defeater for my belief that R is true for me?
Finally, suppose that Pr(R|N&E) is low, and if it renders our cognitive faculties unreliable it does so at least as far back as our first memories. Would this be a defeater for R?
I'm curious to know where you think this slippery slope ends. By my lights, it leads all the way to the bottom. Drug XX defeats R, and N&E doesn't, no matter when they occur In any case, do you agree that if Pr(R|N&E) is low (and I believe it is) then N&E defeats R for the naturalist? If you disagree, what of my argument?
If you agree that Pr(R|N&E) being low would defeat R for the naturalist but believe that Pr(R|N&E) is inscrutable, then the scenarios could be easily modified to accommodate that.
Scenario (S1B): I know that my friend Sam has ingested drug XX, a drug that renders one's cognitive faculties unreliable for some of those who take it (and those so afflicted are incapable of detecting their own cognitive unreliability), but I don't know the percentage. The likelihood that Sam's cognitive faculties are reliable is inscrutable to me—I know only that it's low, high, or somewhere in between. I know also however that Sam later comes to believe that an extensive battery of tests has established his cognitive reliability, though I have no independent reason for thinking this occurred. And since Sam obtained his belief about the cognitive tests long after he ingested drug XX, I conclude that I have a defeater for my belief that Sam's cognitive faculties are reliable. Scenario (S2B): I as a three-year-old child ingest drug XX while being aware of its potential effects (though as before I don't know the percentage of those it renders cognitively unreliable; I know only that it's high, low, or somewhere in between). I know of no relevant difference that distinguishes my case from Sam’s. The case of Sam, learning of drug XX, and ingesting drug XX are my earliest memories. Some years after the incident I come to believe I have taken an extensive battery of tests that establish my cognitive reliability, but since this belief came long after I ingested drug XX, I conclude that I have a defeater for my belief that my cognitive faculties are reliable. Scenario (S3B): Naturalistic evolution brought about a mutation that causes my body to naturally produce and release drug XX into my body on my third birthday. Similar to (S2B), I know full well the consequences of the mutation and drug XX. Some years after the incident I come to believe I have taken an extensive battery of tests that establish my cognitive reliability, but since this belief came long after drug XX was released into my body, I conclude that I have a defeater for my belief that my cognitive faculties are reliable.
Scenario (S4B): A doctor has injected me with drug XX soon after I was born (the doctor mistakenly thought he was injecting an important vaccine), and I come to believe in the following. I am a renowned scientist who has built a machine that I know is capable of reliably detecting whether and when drug XX entered a person's bloodstream. I administer the test to myself and the machine reports that drug XX came into my bloodstream at around the time I was born. Later I come to believe that I have taken an extensive battery of tests that establish my cognitive reliability, but since this belief came long after drug XX entered my bloodstream, I conclude that I have a defeater for my belief that my cognitive faculties are reliable. Scenario (S5B): Naturalistic evolution brought about a mutation that causes my body to naturally produce and release drug XX into my body soon after I am born, and I come to believe in the following. I am a renowned scientist who has built a machine that I know is capable of reliably detecting whether and when drug XX entered a person's bloodstream. I administer the test to myself and the machine reports that drug XX came into my bloodstream at around the time I was born. Later I come to believe that I have taken an extensive battery of tests that establish my cognitive reliability, but since this belief came long after drug XX entered my bloodstream, I conclude that I have a defeater for my belief that my cognitive faculties are reliable. Scenario (S6B): The Probability Thesis is true and Pr(R|N&E) is inscrutable. Moreover, I study philosophy and see for myself that Pr(R|N&E) is inscrutable; I know only that Pr(R|N&E) is low, high, or somewhere in between. Later I come to believe I have taken an extensive battery of tests that establish my cognitive reliability, but since this belief came long after N&E has already affected my cognitive faculties, I conclude that I have a defeater for my belief that my cognitive faculties of reliable. Let S1A, S2A, S3A...S6A be the same as S1B...S6B except that drug XX has a high probability of rendering one's cognitive faculties unreliable and Pr(R|N&E) is low instead of inscrutable. Do you believe R is defeated in S6A? If not, where does the slippery slope stop? Do you believe R is defeated in S6B? If not, where does the slippery slope stop?
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ncole1
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Posted 01/21/12
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#587
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Quote: Originally Posted by Tisthammerw Why think Pr(R|N&E) is low or inscrutable? Ordinarily one might think that true beliefs help us survive. That certainly is the case if beliefs are causally relevant to behavior (e.g. I believe this plant is poisonous so I won’t eat it). But if the truth of our beliefs has no such causal relevance, then such a factor will be invisible to natural selection. The content of our beliefs could be anything, true or not, and it wouldn’t affect our behavior. Whether the belief's content is 2 + 2 = 4, 2 + 2 = 67, or 2 + 2 = 4096 would make no difference to how we behave. If that is true, then Pr(R|N&E) is low. Enter something called semantic epiphenomenalism. Call the syntax of a belief its neurophysiological properties; the number of neurons involved in a belief, their rate of firing, etc. Call the semantics of a belief its content, e.g. the belief that p is true for some proposition p. Such a proposition might be, for example, “snow is white.” Semantic epiphenomenalism says that while the syntax of our beliefs is casually relevant to behavior, the semantics of our beliefs are not. Under naturalism, is semantic epiphenomenalism true? It would seem to be. If naturalism is true, then materialism with respect to human beings is true (i.e. we are purely physical beings, having no nonphysical minds or souls). Plantinga writes, “it is extremely hard to envisage a way, given materialism, in which the content of a belief could get causally involved in behavior. This is quite explicitly an argument from lack of imagination fallacy. Quote: Originally Posted by Tisthammerw According to materialism, a belief is a neural structure of some kind--a structure that somehow possesses content. But how can its content get involved in the causal chain leading to behavior? Had a given such structure had a different content, one thinks, its causal contribution to behavior would be the same. Suppose my belief naturalism is all the rage these days--the neuronal structure that does in fact display that content--had had the same neurophysiological properties but some entirely different content: perhaps nobody believes naturalism nowadays. This is only a meaningful argument if semantic content does not supervene on properties of correlation of the neural state with its likely sensory causes when the brain is healthy, and with the motor outputs of said brain which constitute the behavior. Check out Feng Ye's paper at http://sites.google.com/site/fengye63/naturalizedtruthandplantinga Quote: Originally Posted by Tisthammerw Would that have made any difference to its role in the causation of behavior? It is hard to see how: there would have been the same electrical impulses traveling down the same neural pathways, issuing in the same muscular contractions. It is therefore exceedingly hard to see how semantic epiphenomenalism can be avoided, given N&E.”
This is again an argument from lack of imagination fallacy. Quote: Originally Posted by Tisthammerw If materialism with respect to human beings is true, our beliefs being causally relevant would be as illusory as libertarian free will. Putting the argument in deductive form and assuming materialism with respect to human beings: If holding the syntax of beliefs constant while varying the semantics of belief would not change behavior, then the semantics of the belief are not causally relevant to behavior, even if the syntax of the beliefs are. Holding the syntax of beliefs constant while varying the semantics would not change behavior. Therefore, the semantics of the belief are not causally relevant to behavior even if the syntax of the beliefs are (follows from 1 and 2).
The above deductive argument is valid, i.e. the conclusion follows logically and inescapably from the premises. So are the premises true? The first premise is true almost by definition; what I mean by semantic properties of belief being causally relevant to behavior is that, all other pertinent factors (including syntactic properties) held constant, sufficiently different semantics would produce different behavioral outcomes. Syntax is a pertinent factor because semantic epiphenomenalism says that beliefs cause behavior by virtue of their syntax and not their semantics. My justification for the second premise is illustrated with Plantinga’s little thought experiment (holding the syntax constant while varying the semantics). With the same syntactic properties, we have the same physiochemical properties of the human body and therefore get the same behavioral results (muscle contractions etc.); thus whatever semantic content that gets generated from the physiochemical processes doesn’t appear to matter. While the electrochemical reactions in the brain may bring about semantic content, the semantic content itself doesn’t seem to cause anything. It seems that under naturalism, semantic epiphenomenalism is true. But of course the truth or falsehood of a belief has to do with its semantic content. Under semantic epiphenomenalism, the semantic properties of the belief could be anything and it wouldn’t matter (e.g. if semantics supervenes on syntax, this supervenience relation that determines semantics could yield any semantic belief and it wouldn’t matter) with regard to how we behave.
No argument is given that the supervenience relation "could yield any" semantic belief for given neural correlational properties both within the brain and with sensory input and motor output. It is simply asserted. It begs the question against the supervenience hypothesis combined with teleosemantics, as explained in Feng Ye 's paper I linked to above. Quote: Originally Posted by Tisthammerw To help guard against bias towards our own species, think not of us but of aliens on some other planet for whom N&E&SE is true. Suppose also for these aliens there is some supervenience relation such that semantics supervenes on syntax. Let RA represent “the cognitive faculties of the aliens are reliable.” Let A represent the following: A: the semantic properties of the beliefs could literally be anything at all and it wouldn’t matter (e.g. if semantics supervenes on syntax, this supervenience relation could yield any semantic belief and it wouldn’t matter) with regard to one behaves. (2.5a) If (N&E&SE entails A), then (Pr(RA|N&E&SE) is low or inscrutable) (2.5b) If Pr(RA|N&E&SE) is low or inscrutable, then Pr(R|N&E&SE) is low or inscrutable. (2.5c) N&E&SE entails A. (2.5) Therefore, Pr(R|N&E&SE) is low or inscrutable. Argument for (2.5a): In the case of the aliens it seems we don’t know what the semantic beliefs are like because not even what the supervenience relation is like is deducible from N&E&SE alone. Given that N&E&SE entails A, the supervenience relation could produce any semantic beliefs at all and it wouldn’t matter.
See my previous comment. Quote: Originally Posted by Tisthammerw For example, whether the aliens believed that 2 + 2 = 3, 2 + 2 = 4, 2 + 2 = 5, or 2 + 2 = 906 would make no difference. Even if the semantic beliefs were “garbage” beliefs unrelated to the external world (as in dreams) the semantics wouldn’t affect behavior at all. Given all that then, Pr(RA|N&E&SE) appears low, or at best inscrutable. Argument for (2.5b): there doesn’t appear to be any relevant difference between our case and that of the aliens for Pr(R|N&E&SE) to be anything other than low or inscrutable. Imagine some intelligent and rational alien learns that humans exist and optimistically assumes R with respect to us, but if the alien were to learn that N&E&SE is true with respect to us, the rational alien would believe that Pr(R|N&E&SE) is low or at best inscrutable, just as we would for Pr(RA|N&E&SE). Argument for (2.5c): that the semantic belief could be anything without affecting behavior follows inescapably from the definition of semantic epiphenomenalism. I thus conclude that Pr(R|N&E&SE) is low or inscrutable. For those who reject 2.5 and the above argument, which premise is false and why? For those who have a knack for analytic philosophy and want a rigorous view of what I’m talking about, here’s exactly what I mean (for those who don’t have such a knack, you may want to skip this paragraph and the fancy symbols below it). Let s be some syntax, and SL() be a supervenience law function such that SL(s) yields some semantic belief B. Let [All]x symbolize “For any x” and [Ex]x symbolize “there exists an x.” Let A be a predicate such that Ax means that x produces adaptive behavior and that x is/was selected by natural selection. Let p []->q represent the counterfactual conditional, “if p were true then q would be true,” and let -> symbolize the material conditional. My claim for A is as follows: [All]s(As -> [All]B((SL(s) = B) []-> As)) The argument for Pr(R|N&E) being low/inscrutable can thus go as follows: | (2.1) | N&E entails SE | | (2.2) | If (N&E entails SE) then N&E entails N&E&SE. | | (2.3) | N&E entails N&E&SE (follows from 2.1 and 2.2). | | (2.4) | If Pr(R|N&E&SE) is low or inscrutable, then Pr(R|N&E) is low or inscrutable (follows from 2.3; since N&E entails N&E&SE anyway). | | (2.5) | Pr(R|N&E&SE) is low or inscrutable. | | (2.6) | Therefore, Pr(R|N&E) is low or inscrutable (follows from 2.4 and 4.5). |
The above argument is deductively valid. Premise (2.1) is justified with the above argument (assuming materialism with respect to human beings, in which the conclusion is "semantics of the belief are not causally relevant to behavior even if the syntax of the beliefs are").
No it isn't justified by the above argument because the latter argument fails as I explained earlier. Quote: Originally Posted by Tisthammerw Premise (2.5) is justified by the paragraph preceding the argument (the semantic content of the belief could be anything and it wouldn't matter etc.). The gist of it is that if N&E were true then semantic epiphenomenalism would be true. But the likelihood of R given N&E and semantic epiphenomenalism is low/inscrutable, and so it follows that the probability of R given N&E is low/inscrutable. I contend that the five premises are more plausible than their denials. If this is mistaken, which premise is not more plausible than its denial? As a final remark, beliefs and desires are not directly subject to evolution because they are not inherited. What IS inherited is the neurochemical biases that neurons start out with, and some of the larger-scale connection patterns, particularly in the subcortical stuructures. Neuroplasticity, not genetically pre-programmed microscale wiring, does the rest. The relevant factors necessary for a determination of P(R|N&E) have to do with the dynamics of neural networks that learn, not with natural selection. Plantinga's argument only works if the connectivity patterns were genetically pre-programmed, which is clearly not the case as evidenced by experiments in which sensory inputs in a lab animal are surgically "re-wired" the wrong way to a ferret or other lab animal's brain. See "Visual Projections Routed to the Auditory Pathway in Ferrets" : http://www.jneurosci.org/content/12/9/3651.full.pdf
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Tisthammerw
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Posted 01/26/12
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#588
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Ncole1, if nothing else you've shown that the OP needs to be updated, because some of your objections I have already dealt with, and it would of course be unreasonable for me to expect that you have read all the posts in this thread thus far.
Quote: Originally Posted by ncole1Quote: Originally Posted by Tisthammerw According to materialism, a belief is a neural structure of some kind--a structure that somehow possesses content. But how can its content get involved in the causal chain leading to behavior? Had a given such structure had a different content, one thinks, its causal contribution to behavior would be the same. Suppose my belief naturalism is all the rage these days--the neuronal structure that does in fact display that content--had had the same neurophysiological properties but some entirely different content: perhaps nobody believes naturalism nowadays. This is only a meaningful argument if semantic content does not supervene on properties of correlation of the neural state with its likely sensory causes when the brain is healthy, and with the motor outputs of said brain which constitute the behavior. Why? Suppose it is physically impossible for a different semantics to be associated with the same syntax. Surely it is metaphysically or at least logically possible for a different semantics to be associated with a given syntax. If you claim otherwise, note that the burden of proof on impossibility claims rest on the person who makes them. That said, let's ignore the burden of proof here and allow me to prop up an argument.
Suppose a mad scientist creates a mind-control device that not only controls the person’s bodily actions but also effectively renders the semantic properties of the person’s beliefs an epiphenomenon (it causes a person to have certain semantic beliefs but prevents those semantics from influencing behavior). Let’s call the machine an “artificial semantic epiphenomenal” (ASE) device. For any behavior the ASE device forces its victim to do, it can create just about any semantic belief. For example, suppose the mad scientist implants the ASE device in Bill and the device forces the thirsty Bill to drink a glass of water while simultaneously making him believe that, “Drinking this water will kill me and I don’t want to die.” The ASE device can even produce a semantic belief that has little to do with the forced behavior, such as making Bill believe that “grass is air” or that “1+1=3” at the same time it forces Bill to drink the water. But if it is physically possible for a technological device to do this (and it seems to be), under semantic epiphenomenalism it seems at least metaphysically possible for the moving atoms of neurophysiology to do the same thing. One could thus put forth the following argument:
- If the ASE device is physically possible, then under SE it is at least metaphysically possible for just about any semantic belief to be associated with some given behavior (since semantic properties of beliefs are epiphenomenal).
- The ASE device is physically possible.
- Therefore, under SE it is at least metaphysically possible for just about any semantic belief to be associated with some given behavior.
Argument for (1): if a technological device can do this, there doesn’t appear to be anything special about organic molecules or biological ontology in general that would render it metaphysically impossible for them to do same thing; a different supervenience relation seems conceivable.
Argument for (2): such device comports with all known physical laws.
Recall that for any behavior the ASE device forces its victim to do, it can create just about any semantic belief associated with it. A similar thing holds for semantic epiphenomenalism: for any belief B and any semantic belief S, there exists some metaphysically possible neurophysiological process that produces both S and B, which means for any given behavior our semantic beliefs could be just about anything. But if that’s true, the claim that it’s metaphysically impossible for a syntactic structure to have a different semantic content looks less plausible. What’s more, the ASE device argument provides additional grounds for thinking that P(R|N&E&SE) is low.
That said, perhaps you insist that SE is false. No matter. It turns out we don't need SE to justify the Probability Thesis; we can construct a scenario similar to the ASE case.
Suppose a mad scientist creates an artificial neurophysiological device (ANPD), a many-tentacled device implanted near Smith’s brainstem that controls both his thoughts and behavior. The mad scientist can remotely control the ANPD’s electrochemical processes to vary Smith’s beliefs and behavior in innumerable and diverse ways. For example, Smith is dehydrated, and the mad scientist, wanting his victim to be in good health, uses the ANPD to force Smith to drink some water while simultaneously making him believe “I am thirsty and this water will quench my thirst.” The second time Smith is dehydrated, the mad scientist uses a different electrochemical setting to make Smith believe “drinking this water will grant me superpowers in the afterlife” while producing the same drinking behavior (and suppose this belief is false). Here, the electrochemical process that produces fitness-enhancing behavior also produces a false belief. The ANPD can even produce “garbage” semantic beliefs that have little to do with the forced behavior, such as making Bill believe that “grass is air” or that “1 + 1 = 3” at the same time it causes Smith to drink the water. The third time Smith is dehydrated the mad scientist does just that; causing Smith to drink the water while also causing him to believe “1 + 1 = 3.” Indeed, the mad scientist can associate just about any belief with the same drinking behavior. Such an artificial neurophysiological device is not only metaphysically possible, but it also seems to be physically possible (given that beliefs and behavior can be brought about by electrochemical means).
One could substitute all sorts of semantic beliefs generated by the mad scientist’s device into the above argument. It would seem then that for just about any semantic belief, there exists some metaphysically possible set of moving atoms that generates both that semantic belief and whatever behavior is desired (such as the thirsty human drinking the water). But if that’s true, the claim that it’s metaphysically impossible for a syntactic structure to have a different semantic content looks less plausible. Even if it weren't, we'd still have something very much like SE.
- If the ANPD is physically possible (e.g. to impose the semantic belief that “drinking this water will kill me and I don’t want to die” on the man while also making him drink the water), then it is metaphysically possible for neurophysiological processes to do the same thing the device does.
- The ANPD is physically possible.
- Therefore, it is metaphysically possible for neurophysiological processes to do the same thing the device does.
For example, think of an alien frog whose neurophysiology is very different from an earth frog. In light of the ANPD scenario, we can conceive of a neurophysiology that causes the alien frog to snap out its tongue to capture the alien fly while also causing the frog believe that “eating this fly will kill me and I don't want to die, therefore I should eat it.” We might say the alien frog is being irrational in its behavior, but natural selection does not select for rationality, it selects for advantageous behavior. We can even conceive of the alien frog having a semantic content that has nothing to do with the external environment, as in the third case of the ANPD scenario, and yet the neurophysiology still causes the alien frog to eat the alien fly. Even if we accept that syntax and semantics are the same thing, in a purely physical view of the mind the spirit of semantic epiphenomenalism remains: for any given behavior B, there are innumerably many semantic contents C—even C’s wildly unrelated to the external environment—that could be associated with B. One could argue that the relation between semantic content and behavior is in this way functionally equivalent to SE in spite of the falsity of SE. Call this view semantic pseudo-epiphenomenalism (SPE).
In response one could put forth the following rebuttal. Even though naturalism unavoidably entails an SE-type problem—whether via semantic epiphenomenalism or semantic pseudo-epiphenomenalism—the fitness-enhancing neurophysiological properties that are most likely to be selected by natural selection (say that a certain neurophysiology is selectable just in case it’s likely to be selected by natural selection) happen to be those that are truth-conducive. The ANPD scenario is contrived and produces certain belief-behavior pairs that are unlikely to obtain in real human physiology. The most selectable and efficient way for neurophysiology to produce advantageous behavior also produces true beliefs. Thus, even though the SE-type situation exists for semantics and behavior, luckily for us the physiological relation between semantics and behavior is such that true beliefs usually obtain.
All that may be true, but as an objection against the Probability Thesis it falls short. A major problem is that even if a favorable physiological relation between beliefs and behavior obtains for our species, such a favorable relation does not appear to be knowable from N&E alone. To illustrate, consider a slightly modified form of the alien scenario, where the neurophysiology of these creatures is quite literally alien to us and radically different from our own (though we don’t know much more about it). Given this, the ANPD scenario, and the SE-like situation for beliefs and behavior, for all we know the most selectable and efficient fitness-enhancing alien neurophysiology available to natural selection has a physiological relation between beliefs and behavior that is wildly different from what human naturalists believes about themselves. So there are possible worlds where the most selectable alien neurophysiology is such that the fitness-enhancing neurophysiology produces mostly false beliefs as in the ANPD scenario. Of course, there are also possible worlds where the most selectable alien neurophysiology produces mostly true beliefs. But there’s no way to determine on N&E alone which sort of neurophysiology is more selectable, in part because the alien neurophysiology is too mysterious and too radically different from our own.
Moreover, if we temporarily forget our own beneficial belief-behavior relationship to calculate the likelihood of RA on just N&E and thus without any (further?) background knowledge about what sorts of physiological relations between beliefs and behavior obtain in actual N&E worlds, we would have no reason to suppose Pr(RA|N&E) is high regardless of whether we assume semantic epiphenomenalism or semantic pseudo-epiphenomenalism. Indeed, in light of the ANPD scenario the semantic beliefs of the aliens could (at least in the epistemic sense) be just about anything, and thus Pr(RA|N&E) is low or at best inscrutable. Similarly, Pr(R|N&E) is also low/inscrutable.
One could concede that the probability of R given N&E is low but also claim we know some proposition P (perhaps that the physiological relation between beliefs and behavior happens to be benevolent for our species) such that Pr(R|N&E&P) is high. Therefore, Pr(R|N&E) being low/inscrutable does not defeat R for the evolutionary naturalist. This however would be an objection against the defeater thesis rather than the probability thesis, so it will not be discussed in this section. If you want to see where I do address it, please see the recently updated first post.
I actually had the paper already downloaded before you posted it (part of my research on EAAN). It doesn't really solve the problem even if we pump up teleosemantics so full of steroids such that it means nearly all beliefs represent reality. Why? The ANPD scenario and the truth of SPE (if SE weren't true) on naturalism show that beliefs need not resemble much in the way of the agent's environment, and so the Probability Thesis still seems solid. What about teleosemantics as some P such that Pr(R|N&E&P) is high? Again, please see the recently updated first post to see my reply to that sort of objection.
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ncole1
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Posted 01/29/12
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#589
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Quote: Originally Posted by TisthammerwNcole1, if nothing else you've shown that the OP needs to be updated, because some of your objections I have already dealt with, and it would of course be unreasonable for me to expect that you have read all the posts in this thread thus far.Quote: Originally Posted by ncole1Quote: Originally Posted by Tisthammerw According to materialism, a belief is a neural structure of some kind--a structure that somehow possesses content. But how can its content get involved in the causal chain leading to behavior? Had a given such structure had a different content, one thinks, its causal contribution to behavior would be the same. Suppose my belief naturalism is all the rage these days--the neuronal structure that does in fact display that content--had had the same neurophysiological properties but some entirely different content: perhaps nobody believes naturalism nowadays. This is only a meaningful argument if semantic content does not supervene on properties of correlation of the neural state with its likely sensory causes when the brain is healthy, and with the motor outputs of said brain which constitute the behavior. Why? Suppose it is physically impossible for a different semantics to be associated with the same syntax. Surely it is metaphysically or at least logically possible for a different semantics to be associated with a given syntax. If you claim otherwise, note that the burden of proof on impossibility claims rest on the person who makes them. That said, let's ignore the burden of proof here and allow me to prop up an argument.
Suppose a mad scientist creates a mind-control device that not only controls the person’s bodily actions but also effectively renders the semantic properties of the person’s beliefs an epiphenomenon (it causes a person to have certain semantic beliefs but prevents those semantics from influencing behavior). Let’s call the machine an “artificial semantic epiphenomenal” (ASE) device. For any behavior the ASE device forces its victim to do, it can create just about any semantic belief.
In that case, it would be the ASE device doing the behavior, not the victim.
Quote: Originally Posted by Tisthammerw For example, suppose the mad scientist implants the ASE device in Bill and the device forces the thirsty Bill to drink a glass of water while simultaneously making him believe that, “Drinking this water will kill me and I don’t want to die.”
Then the machine is forcing him to reflexively swallow. That is not him "drinking" it. The act doesn't qualify as "behavior" unless it is caused by having been willed by him.
Quote: Originally Posted by Tisthammerw The ASE device can even produce a semantic belief that has little to do with the forced behavior, such as making Bill believe that “grass is air” or that “1+1=3” at the same time it forces Bill to drink the water. But if it is physically possible for a technological device to do this (and it seems to be), under semantic epiphenomenalism it seems at least metaphysically possible for the moving atoms of neurophysiology to do the same thing. One could thus put forth the following argument:
- If the ASE device is physically possible, then under SE it is at least metaphysically possible for just about any semantic belief to be associated with some given behavior (since semantic properties of beliefs are epiphenomenal).
- The ASE device is physically possible.
- Therefore, under SE it is at least metaphysically possible for just about any semantic belief to be associated with some given behavior.
Argument for (1): if a technological device can do this, there doesn’t appear to be anything special about organic molecules or biological ontology in general that would render it metaphysically impossible for them to do same thing; a different supervenience relation seems conceivable.
Argument for (2): such device comports with all known physical laws.
Recall that for any behavior the ASE device forces its victim to do, it can create just about any semantic belief associated with it. A similar thing holds for semantic epiphenomenalism: for any belief B and any semantic belief S, there exists some metaphysically possible neurophysiological process that produces both S and B, which means for any given behavior our semantic beliefs could be just about anything. But if that’s true, the claim that it’s metaphysically impossible for a syntactic structure to have a different semantic content looks less plausible. What’s more, the ASE device argument provides additional grounds for thinking that P(R|N&E&SE) is low.
That said, perhaps you insist that SE is false. No matter. It turns out we don't need SE to justify the Probability Thesis; we can construct a scenario similar to the ASE case.
See above.
Quote: Originally Posted by Tisthammerw
Suppose a mad scientist creates an artificial neurophysiological device (ANPD), a many-tentacled device implanted near Smith’s brainstem that controls both his thoughts and behavior.
Then it isn't really his behavior anymore...
Quote: Originally Posted by Tisthammerw The mad scientist can remotely control the ANPD’s electrochemical processes to vary Smith’s beliefs and behavior in innumerable and diverse ways. For example, Smith is dehydrated, and the mad scientist, wanting his victim to be in good health, uses the ANPD to force Smith to drink some water while simultaneously making him believe “I am thirsty and this water will quench my thirst.” The second time Smith is dehydrated, the mad scientist uses a different electrochemical setting to make Smith believe “drinking this water will grant me superpowers in the afterlife” while producing the same drinking behavior (and suppose this belief is false). Here, the electrochemical process that produces fitness-enhancing behavior also produces a false belief. The ANPD can even produce “garbage” semantic beliefs that have little to do with the forced behavior, such as making Bill believe that “grass is air” or that “1 + 1 = 3” at the same time it causes Smith to drink the water. The third time Smith is dehydrated the mad scientist does just that; causing Smith to drink the water while also causing him to believe “1 + 1 = 3.” Indeed, the mad scientist can associate just about any belief with the same drinking behavior. Such an artificial neurophysiological device is not only metaphysically possible, but it also seems to be physically possible (given that beliefs and behavior can be brought about by electrochemical means).
No, for reasons given above.
Quote: Originally Posted by Tisthammerw
One could substitute all sorts of semantic beliefs generated by the mad scientist’s device into the above argument. It would seem then that for just about any semantic belief, there exists some metaphysically possible set of moving atoms that generates both that semantic belief and whatever behavior is desired (such as the thirsty human drinking the water). But if that’s true, the claim that it’s metaphysically impossible for a syntactic structure to have a different semantic content looks less plausible. Even if it weren't, we'd still have something very much like SE.
- If the ANPD is physically possible (e.g. to impose the semantic belief that “drinking this water will kill me and I don’t want to die” on the man while also making him drink the water), then it is metaphysically possible for neurophysiological processes to do the same thing the device does.
- The ANPD is physically possible.
- Therefore, it is metaphysically possible for neurophysiological processes to do the same thing the device does.
For example, think of an alien frog whose neurophysiology is very different from an earth frog. In light of the ANPD scenario, we can conceive of a neurophysiology that causes the alien frog to snap out its tongue to capture the alien fly while also causing the frog believe that “eating this fly will kill me and I don't want to die, therefore I should eat it.” We might say the alien frog is being irrational in its behavior, but natural selection does not select for rationality, it selects for advantageous behavior.
You are presupposing they don't go together.
Quote: Originally Posted by Tisthammerw We can even conceive of the alien frog having a semantic content that has nothing to do with the external environment, as in the third case of the ANPD scenario, and yet the neurophysiology still causes the alien frog to eat the alien fly. Even if we accept that syntax and semantics are the same thing, in a purely physical view of the mind the spirit of semantic epiphenomenalism remains: for any given behavior B, there are innumerably many semantic contents C—even C’s wildly unrelated to the external environment—that could be associated with B. One could argue that the relation between semantic content and behavior is in this way functionally equivalent to SE in spite of the falsity of SE. Call this view semantic pseudo-epiphenomenalism (SPE).
In response one could put forth the following rebuttal. Even though naturalism unavoidably entails an SE-type problem—whether via semantic epiphenomenalism or semantic pseudo-epiphenomenalism—the fitness-enhancing neurophysiological properties that are most likely to be selected by natural selection (say that a certain neurophysiology is selectable just in case it’s likely to be selected by natural selection) happen to be those that are truth-conducive. The ANPD scenario is contrived and produces certain belief-behavior pairs that are unlikely to obtain in real human physiology. The most selectable and efficient way for neurophysiology to produce advantageous behavior also produces true beliefs. Thus, even though the SE-type situation exists for semantics and behavior, luckily for us the physiological relation between semantics and behavior is such that true beliefs usually obtain.
All that may be true, but as an objection against the Probability Thesis it falls short. A major problem is that even if a favorable physiological relation between beliefs and behavior obtains for our species, such a favorable relation does not appear to be knowable from N&E alone.
That doesn't follow. The existence of a hypothetical scenario "X" in which N&E are true but RA is false, does not show that P(RA|N&E) is low or inscrutable unless you assume that Pr(X|N&E) is high or inscrutable. You have yet to present an argument for that.
Quote: Originally Posted by Tisthammerw To illustrate, consider a slightly modified form of the alien scenario, where the neurophysiology of these creatures is quite literally alien to us and radically different from our own (though we don’t know much more about it). Given this, the ANPD scenario, and the SE-like situation for beliefs and behavior, for all we know the most selectable and efficient fitness-enhancing alien neurophysiology available to natural selection has a physiological relation between beliefs and behavior that is wildly different from what human naturalists believes about themselves. So there are possible worlds where the most selectable alien neurophysiology is such that the fitness-enhancing neurophysiology produces mostly false beliefs as in the ANPD scenario. Of course, there are also possible worlds where the most selectable alien neurophysiology produces mostly true beliefs. But there’s no way to determine on N&E alone which sort of neurophysiology is more selectable, in part because the alien neurophysiology is too mysterious and too radically different from our own.
Even if the alien world you describe is epistemically possible, that doesn't make it physically so.
Quote: Originally Posted by Tisthammerw
Moreover, if we temporarily forget our own beneficial belief-behavior relationship to calculate the likelihood of RA on just N&E and thus without any (further?) background knowledge about what sorts of physiological relations between beliefs and behavior obtain in actual N&E worlds, we would have no reason to suppose Pr(RA|N&E) is high regardless of whether we assume semantic epiphenomenalism or semantic pseudo-epiphenomenalism. Indeed, in light of the ANPD scenario the semantic beliefs of the aliens could (at least in the epistemic sense) be just about anything, and thus Pr(RA|N&E) is low or at best inscrutable. Similarly, Pr(R|N&E) is also low/inscrutable.
In order for your argument to work, you need to show that Pr(X|N&E) is high or inscrutable, where "X" is a scenario in a thought experiment in which beliefs and behavior are probabilistically dissociated.
Quote: Originally Posted by Tisthammerw One could concede that the probability of R given N&E is low but also claim we know some proposition P (perhaps that the physiological relation between beliefs and behavior happens to be benevolent for our species) such that Pr(R|N&E&P) is high. Therefore, Pr(R|N&E) being low/inscrutable does not defeat R for the evolutionary naturalist. This however would be an objection against the defeater thesis rather than the probability thesis, so it will not be discussed in this section. If you want to see where I do address it, please see the recently updated first post.
I actually had the paper already downloaded before you posted it (part of my research on EAAN). It doesn't really solve the problem even if we pump up teleosemantics so full of steroids such that it means nearly all beliefs represent reality. Why? The ANPD scenario and the truth of SPE (if SE weren't true) on naturalism show that beliefs need not resemble much in the way of the agent's environment, and so the Probability Thesis still seems solid. What about teleosemantics as some P such that Pr(R|N&E&P) is high? Again, please see the recently updated first post to see my reply to that sort of objection.
See above.
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ncole1
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Posted 01/30/12
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#590
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I should also mention that, ironically enough, Tisthammerw's method, if successful (which I don't think to be the case as I explained before), would serve just as well to defeat metaphysical supernaturalism as naturalism. Specifically, even if at some point during human evolution a miracle occurred , Tisthammerw's thought experiment runs through just the same.
So in order to rescue the argument, Tisthammerw has to 1) knock down all my arguments in the previous post 2) Show how the case doesn't apply equally to supernaturalism, and 3) Erect a new case for the EAAN.
Unless and until that occurs, Tisthammerw's case against naturalism has been destroyed.
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Tisthammerw
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Posted 01/31/12
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#591
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Quote: Originally Posted by ncole1Quote: Originally Posted by Tisthammerw For example, suppose the mad scientist implants the ASE device in Bill and the device forces the thirsty Bill to drink a glass of water while simultaneously making him believe that, “Drinking this water will kill me and I don’t want to die.” Then the machine is forcing him to reflexively swallow. That is not him "drinking" it. The act doesn't qualify as "behavior" unless it is caused by having been willed by him.
[....]
Quote: Originally Posted by Tisthammerw The mad scientist can remotely control the ANPD’s electrochemical processes to vary Smith’s beliefs and behavior in innumerable and diverse ways. For example, Smith is dehydrated, and the mad scientist, wanting his victim to be in good health, uses the ANPD to force Smith to drink some water while simultaneously making him believe “I am thirsty and this water will quench my thirst.” The second time Smith is dehydrated, the mad scientist uses a different electrochemical setting to make Smith believe “drinking this water will grant me superpowers in the afterlife” while producing the same drinking behavior (and suppose this belief is false). Here, the electrochemical process that produces fitness-enhancing behavior also produces a false belief. The ANPD can even produce “garbage” semantic beliefs that have little to do with the forced behavior, such as making Bill believe that “grass is air” or that “1 + 1 = 3” at the same time it causes Smith to drink the water. The third time Smith is dehydrated the mad scientist does just that; causing Smith to drink the water while also causing him to believe “1 + 1 = 3.” Indeed, the mad scientist can associate just about any belief with the same drinking behavior. Such an artificial neurophysiological device is not only metaphysically possible, but it also seems to be physically possible (given that beliefs and behavior can be brought about by electrochemical means). No, for reasons given above. What reasons are those? You mentioned that if the ANPD controls his thoughts and behavior that it isn’t really his behavior anymore. Why not? Presumably, because it’s not within his control, and something only qualifies as “his behavior” if it’s within his control. But even if behavior by definition entails it being under the agent’s control (which I don’t believe it does) as opposed to “anything that an organism does involving action and response to stimulation” (as this dictionary has as one of its definitions) this is really beside the point. If need be, we can come up with a different label, like behavior*, to refer to the person’s bodily actions in how it responds to its environment. In which case, it remains true that just about any semantic belief can be associated with one’s behavior*.
Quote: Originally Posted by ncole1Quote: Originally Posted by TisthammerwOne could substitute all sorts of semantic beliefs generated by the mad scientist’s device into the above argument. It would seem then that for just about any semantic belief, there exists some metaphysically possible set of moving atoms that generates both that semantic belief and whatever behavior is desired (such as the thirsty human drinking the water). But if that’s true, the claim that it’s metaphysically impossible for a syntactic structure to have a different semantic content looks less plausible. Even if it weren't, we'd still have something very much like SE.
- If the ANPD is physically possible (e.g. to impose the semantic belief that “drinking this water will kill me and I don’t want to die” on the man while also making him drink the water), then it is metaphysically possible for neurophysiological processes to do the same thing the device does.
- The ANPD is physically possible.
- Therefore, it is metaphysically possible for neurophysiological processes to do the same thing the device does.
For example, think of an alien frog whose neurophysiology is very different from an earth frog. In light of the ANPD scenario, we can conceive of a neurophysiology that causes the alien frog to snap out its tongue to capture the alien fly while also causing the frog believe that “eating this fly will kill me and I don't want to die, therefore I should eat it.” We might say the alien frog is being irrational in its behavior, but natural selection does not select for rationality, it selects for advantageous behavior. You are presupposing they don't go together. I’m presupposing that what doesn’t go together? In any case, don’t seem to have really attacked any premise of the argument I presented.
If you're saying that I'm assuming that rational beliefs and fitness-enhancing beliefs don't go together, I am not. They could go together, and I suspect they in fact do go together. Nonetheless, that wouldn't change the fact that Pr(R|N&E) is low even if we are lucky enough such that R obtains in the actual world.
Quote: Originally Posted by ncole1Quote: Originally Posted by TisthammerwWe can even conceive of the alien frog having a semantic content that has nothing to do with the external environment, as in the third case of the ANPD scenario, and yet the neurophysiology still causes the alien frog to eat the alien fly. Even if we accept that syntax and semantics are the same thing, in a purely physical view of the mind the spirit of semantic epiphenomenalism remains: for any given behavior B, there are innumerably many semantic contents C—even C’s wildly unrelated to the external environment—that could be associated with B. One could argue that the relation between semantic content and behavior is in this way functionally equivalent to SE in spite of the falsity of SE. Call this view s emantic pseudo-epiphenomenalism (SPE). In response one could put forth the following rebuttal. Even though naturalism unavoidably entails an SE-type problem—whether via semantic epiphenomenalism or semantic pseudo-epiphenomenalism—the fitness-enhancing neurophysiological properties that are most likely to be selected by natural selection (say that a certain neurophysiology is selectable just in case it’s likely to be selected by natural selection) happen to be those that are truth-conducive. The ANPD scenario is contrived and produces certain belief-behavior pairs that are unlikely to obtain in real human physiology. The most selectable and efficient way for neurophysiology to produce advantageous behavior also produces true beliefs. Thus, even though the SE-type situation exists for semantics and behavior, luckily for us the physiological relation between semantics and behavior is such that true beliefs usually obtain.
All that may be true, but as an objection against the Probability Thesis it falls short. A major problem is that even if a favorable physiological relation between beliefs and behavior obtains for our species, such a favorable relation does not appear to be knowable from N&E alone.
That doesn't follow. The existence of a hypothetical scenario "X" in which N&E are true but RA is false, does not show that P(RA|N&E) is low or inscrutable unless you assume that Pr(X|N&E) is high or inscrutable. You have yet to present an argument for that. I don't think you have correctly understood what I was arguing. I don't believe that the ANPD scenario obtains in the actual world, nor did I say or imply that Pr(ANPD Scenario|N&E) is high or inscrutable, nor did I say or imply that this is what I was arguing, nor did I say or imply anything that would require this. Rather, what I'm saying is that "naturalism unavoidably entails an SE-type problem—whether via semantic epiphenomenalism or semantic pseudo-epiphenomenalism." The purpose of the ANPD scenario was to help establish just that, not to argue that this scenario is true or likely true on naturalism. In case it wasn't clear, I believe that both Pr(R|N&E&SE) and Pr(R|N&E&SPE) are low, and naturalism entails that either SE (semantic epiphenomenalism) or SPE (semantic pseudo-epiphenomenalism) is true.
One could reply that even though naturalism entails an SE-type problem, as it happens the most selectable and efficient neurophysiology for primates on Earth is such that it produces reliable cognitive faculties, but then you would have to answer my objection to this.
Quote: Originally Posted by ncole1 I should also mention that, ironically enough, Tisthammerw's method, if successful (which I don't think to be the case as I explained before), would serve just as well to defeat metaphysical supernaturalism as naturalism. Specifically, even if at some point during human evolution a miracle occurred , Tisthammerw's thought experiment runs through just the same.
So in order to rescue the argument, Tisthammerw has to 1) knock down all my arguments in the previous post 2) Show how the case doesn't apply equally to supernaturalism, and 3) Erect a new case for the EAAN.
Unless and until that occurs, Tisthammerw's case against naturalism has been destroyed.
The purpose of this thread isn't to defend supernaturalism (though I'm skeptical about the success of a would-be tu quoque argument) but to attack naturalism. In any case, I don't think you have yet quite addressed the substance of the argument, largely because you don't seem to have correctly understood what I was arguing.
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dadalus
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Posted 02/01/12
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#592
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I disagree with the example of whether 1+1=2 or not is unimportant to survival, whereas knowing a poisonous plant is.
The concept of numbers and many other criticisms are inherently connected to survival beleifs and functions.
To wit, recognizing that "this" plant "this one as opposed to that one", or "those" as in "those 3 plants there" as opposed to those, is a groundong for mathematics.
That we can exploit the recognition of facts about the world, conceptualize them and then extrapolate seems to be what makes us"Us".
The syntax in the brain of conceptual things is based on very fundimental things that are either important to our survival, or a kind of cancerous growth that we can manipulate - if we view ideas as a product or outgrowth of the naturally functioning mind.
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Tisthammerw
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Posted 02/02/12
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#593
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Quote: Originally Posted by dadalus I disagree with the example of whether 1+1=2 or not is unimportant to survival, whereas knowing a poisonous plant is.
The concept of numbers and many other criticisms are inherently connected to survival beleifs and functions.
To wit, recognizing that "this" plant "this one as opposed to that one", or "those" as in "those 3 plants there" as opposed to those, is a groundong for mathematics.
That we can exploit the recognition of facts about the world, conceptualize them and then extrapolate seems to be what makes us"Us".
The syntax in the brain of conceptual things is based on very fundimental things that are either important to our survival, or a kind of cancerous growth that we can manipulate - if we view ideas as a product or outgrowth of the naturally functioning mind. If this is meant to be an objection against the argument, I recommend reading the first post of this thread, because it doesn't seem like you really attacked any premise of the argument here.
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ncole1
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Posted 02/04/12
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#594
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Quote: Originally Posted by TisthammerwQuote: Originally Posted by ncole1Quote: Originally Posted by Tisthammerw For example, suppose the mad scientist implants the ASE device in Bill and the device forces the thirsty Bill to drink a glass of water while simultaneously making him believe that, “Drinking this water will kill me and I don’t want to die.” Then the machine is forcing him to reflexively swallow. That is not him "drinking" it. The act doesn't qualify as "behavior" unless it is caused by having been willed by him.
[....]
Quote: Originally Posted by Tisthammerw The mad scientist can remotely control the ANPD’s electrochemical processes to vary Smith’s beliefs and behavior in innumerable and diverse ways. For example, Smith is dehydrated, and the mad scientist, wanting his victim to be in good health, uses the ANPD to force Smith to drink some water while simultaneously making him believe “I am thirsty and this water will quench my thirst.” The second time Smith is dehydrated, the mad scientist uses a different electrochemical setting to make Smith believe “drinking this water will grant me superpowers in the afterlife” while producing the same drinking behavior (and suppose this belief is false). Here, the electrochemical process that produces fitness-enhancing behavior also produces a false belief. The ANPD can even produce “garbage” semantic beliefs that have little to do with the forced behavior, such as making Bill believe that “grass is air” or that “1 + 1 = 3” at the same time it causes Smith to drink the water. The third time Smith is dehydrated the mad scientist does just that; causing Smith to drink the water while also causing him to believe “1 + 1 = 3.” Indeed, the mad scientist can associate just about any belief with the same drinking behavior. Such an artificial neurophysiological device is not only metaphysically possible, but it also seems to be physically possible (given that beliefs and behavior can be brought about by electrochemical means). No, for reasons given above.What reasons are those? You mentioned that if the ANPD controls his thoughts and behavior that it isn’t really his behavior anymore. Why not? Presumably, because it’s not within his control, and something only qualifies as “his behavior” if it’s within his control. But even if behavior by definition entails it being under the agent’s control (which I don’t believe it does) as opposed to “anything that an organism does involving action and response to stimulation” (as this dictionary has as one of its definitions) this is really beside the point. If need be, we can come up with a different label, like behavior*, to refer to the person’s bodily actions in how it responds to its environment. In which case, it remains true that just about any semantic belief can be associated with one’s behavior*.
Well, then the argument fails because evolution optimizes behavior, not behavior* , unless you are taking the organism to have evolved under the control of such ANPD devices. If that is the case, then it presumably holds no beliefs at all, because it takes energy to grow and operate a brain, and the brain would not evolve to be able to hold beliefs at all if the organism's genes cannot affect its behavior* under the ANPD device.
Quote: Originally Posted by Tisthammerw Quote: Originally Posted by ncole1Quote: Originally Posted by TisthammerwOne could substitute all sorts of semantic beliefs generated by the mad scientist’s device into the above argument. It would seem then that for just about any semantic belief, there exists some metaphysically possible set of moving atoms that generates both that semantic belief and whatever behavior is desired (such as the thirsty human drinking the water). But if that’s true, the claim that it’s metaphysically impossible for a syntactic structure to have a different semantic content looks less plausible. Even if it weren't, we'd still have something very much like SE.
- If the ANPD is physically possible (e.g. to impose the semantic belief that “drinking this water will kill me and I don’t want to die” on the man while also making him drink the water), then it is metaphysically possible for neurophysiological processes to do the same thing the device does.
- The ANPD is physically possible.
- Therefore, it is metaphysically possible for neurophysiological processes to do the same thing the device does.
For example, think of an alien frog whose neurophysiology is very different from an earth frog. In light of the ANPD scenario, we can conceive of a neurophysiology that causes the alien frog to snap out its tongue to capture the alien fly while also causing the frog believe that “eating this fly will kill me and I don't want to die, therefore I should eat it.” We might say the alien frog is being irrational in its behavior, but natural selection does not select for rationality, it selects for advantageous behavior.
You are presupposing they don't go together. I’m presupposing that what doesn’t go together? Rationality and advantageous behavior. If they go together, then you cannot conclude from the fact that natural selecvtion acts on behavior that it does not act on rationality.
Quote: Originally Posted by Tisthammerw In any case, don’t seem to have really attacked any premise of the argument I presented.
If you're saying that I'm assuming that rational beliefs and fitness-enhancing beliefs don't go together, I am not. They could go together, and I suspect they in fact do go together. Nonetheless, that wouldn't change the fact that Pr(R|N&E) is low even if we are lucky enough such that R obtains in the actual world. Sorry, but this is just bad math. For "X" = "any scenario or thought experiment (such as the one involving ANPD devices) in which false or not truth-aimed beliefs coexist with fully adaptive behavior or behavior*" , "~" is for "negation of", Pr(RA|N&E) = Pr(RA&X|N&E) + Pr(RA&~X|N&E) = Pr(RA|X&N&E) * Pr (X|N&E) + Pr(RA|~X&N&E) * Pr(~X|N&E) = Pr(RA|X&N&E) * Pr (X|N&E) + Pr(RA|~X&N&E) * [1- Pr(X|N&E)] = [Pr(RA|X&N&E)-Pr(RA|~X&N&E)] * Pr(X|N&E) + Pr(RA|~X&N&E)
Now, given teleosemantics, Pr(RA|~X&N&E) is high, since by definition, all hypothetical circumstances (such as the one involving ANPD devices) in which false or not truth-aimed beliefs coexist with fully adaptive behavior or behavior* are excluded, since this probability is conditional on ~X&N&E . Thus the only way for Pr(RA|N&E) = [Pr(RA|X&N&E)-Pr(RA|~X&N&E)] * Pr(X|N&E) + Pr(RA|~X&N&E) to be shown by an argument from the possibility of "X" to be anything but high is if [Pr(RA|X&N&E)-Pr(RA|~X&N&E)] * Pr(X|N&E) is demonstrably significantly negative or inscrutably negative, which can only occur if if Pr(X|N&E) is taken to be high or inscrutable, since all probabilities are from 0 to 1.
Quote: Originally Posted by TisthammerwQuote: Originally Posted by ncole1Quote: Originally Posted by TisthammerwWe can even conceive of the alien frog having a semantic content that has nothing to do with the external environment, as in the third case of the ANPD scenario, and yet the neurophysiology still causes the alien frog to eat the alien fly. Even if we accept that syntax and semantics are the same thing, in a purely physical view of the mind the spirit of semantic epiphenomenalism remains: for any given behavior B, there are innumerably many semantic contents C—even C’s wildly unrelated to the external environment—that could be associated with B. One could argue that the relation between semantic content and behavior is in this way functionally equivalent to SE in spite of the falsity of SE. Call this view s emantic pseudo-epiphenomenalism (SPE). In response one could put forth the following rebuttal. Even though naturalism unavoidably entails an SE-type problem—whether via semantic epiphenomenalism or semantic pseudo-epiphenomenalism—the fitness-enhancing neurophysiological properties that are most likely to be selected by natural selection (say that a certain neurophysiology is selectable just in case it’s likely to be selected by natural selection) happen to be those that are truth-conducive. The ANPD scenario is contrived and produces certain belief-behavior pairs that are unlikely to obtain in real human physiology. The most selectable and efficient way for neurophysiology to produce advantageous behavior also produces true beliefs. Thus, even though the SE-type situation exists for semantics and behavior, luckily for us the physiological relation between semantics and behavior is such that true beliefs usually obtain.
All that may be true, but as an objection against the Probability Thesis it falls short. A major problem is that even if a favorable physiological relation between beliefs and behavior obtains for our species, such a favorable relation does not appear to be knowable from N&E alone.
That doesn't follow. The existence of a hypothetical scenario "X" in which N&E are true but RA is false, does not show that P(RA|N&E) is low or inscrutable unless you assume that Pr(X|N&E) is high or inscrutable. You have yet to present an argument for that.I don't think you have correctly understood what I was arguing. I don't believe that the ANPD scenario obtains in the actual world, nor did I say or imply that Pr(ANPD Scenario|N&E) is high or inscrutable, nor did I say or imply that this is what I was arguing, nor did I say or imply anything that would require this. Rather, what I'm saying is that "naturalism unavoidably entails an SE-type problem—whether via semantic epiphenomenalism or semantic pseudo-epiphenomenalism." The purpose of the ANPD scenario was to help establish just that, not to argue that this scenario is true or likely true on naturalism. In case it wasn't clear, I believe that both Pr(R|N&E&SE) and Pr(R|N&E&SPE) are low, and naturalism entails that either SE (semantic epiphenomenalism) or SPE (semantic pseudo-epiphenomenalism) is true. One could reply that even though naturalism entails an SE-type problem, as it happens the most selectable and efficient neurophysiology for primates on Earth is such that it produces reliable cognitive faculties, but then you would have to answer my objection to this. Quote: Originally Posted by ncole1 I should also mention that, ironically enough, Tisthammerw's method, if successful (which I don't think to be the case as I explained before), would serve just as well to defeat metaphysical supernaturalism as naturalism. Specifically, even if at some point during human evolution a miracle occurred , Tisthammerw's thought experiment runs through just the same.
So in order to rescue the argument, Tisthammerw has to 1) knock down all my arguments in the previous post 2) Show how the case doesn't apply equally to supernaturalism, and 3) Erect a new case for the EAAN.
Unless and until that occurs, Tisthammerw's case against naturalism has been destroyed.
The purpose of this thread isn't to defend supernaturalism (though I'm skeptical about the success of a would-be tu quoque argument) but to attack naturalism. In any case, I don't think you have yet quite addressed the substance of the argument, largely because you don't seem to have correctly understood what I was arguing.
See above.
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Tisthammerw
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Posted 02/08/12
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#595
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Recap Quote: Originally Posted by TisthammerwOne could substitute all sorts of semantic beliefs generated by the mad scientist’s device into the above argument. It would seem then that for just about any semantic belief, there exists some metaphysically possible set of moving atoms that generates both that semantic belief and whatever behavior is desired (such as the thirsty human drinking the water). But if that’s true, the claim that it’s metaphysically impossible for a syntactic structure to have a different semantic content looks less plausible. Even if it weren't, we'd still have something very much like SE.
- If the ANPD is physically possible (e.g. to impose the semantic belief that “drinking this water will kill me and I don’t want to die” on the man while also making him drink the water), then it is metaphysically possible for neurophysiological processes to do the same thing the device does.
- The ANPD is physically possible.
- Therefore, it is metaphysically possible for neurophysiological processes to do the same thing the device does.
For example, think of an alien frog whose neurophysiology is very different from an earth frog. In light of the ANPD scenario, we can conceive of a neurophysiology that causes the alien frog to snap out its tongue to capture the alien fly while also causing the frog believe that “eating this fly will kill me and I don't want to die, therefore I should eat it.” SE = semantic epiphenomenalism (a belief's syntax or neurophysiological properties is causally efficacious, but a belief's semantic content, i.e. the belief that p for some proposition p, does not cause anything).
SPE = semantic pseudo-epiphenomenalism (roughly, the idea for any given behavior B, there are innumerably many semantic contents C—even C’s wildly unrelated to the external environment—that could be associated with B).
Garbage beliefs = beliefs that have little to do with the organism's surrounding environment, as in dreams. Under SPE, it's possible for an organism's neurophysiology to produce both garbage beliefs and advantageous behavior.
The Post
Quote: Originally Posted by ncole1Quote: Originally Posted by TisthammerwQuote: Originally Posted by ncole1Quote: Originally Posted by Tisthammerw For example, suppose the mad scientist implants the ASE device in Bill and the device forces the thirsty Bill to drink a glass of water while simultaneously making him believe that, “Drinking this water will kill me and I don’t want to die.”
Then the machine is forcing him to reflexively swallow. That is not him "drinking" it. The act doesn't qualify as "behavior" unless it is caused by having been willed by him.
[....]
Quote: Originally Posted by Tisthammerw The mad scientist can remotely control the ANPD’s electrochemical processes to vary Smith’s beliefs and behavior in innumerable and diverse ways. For example, Smith is dehydrated, and the mad scientist, wanting his victim to be in good health, uses the ANPD to force Smith to drink some water while simultaneously making him believe “I am thirsty and this water will quench my thirst.” The second time Smith is dehydrated, the mad scientist uses a different electrochemical setting to make Smith believe “drinking this water will grant me superpowers in the afterlife” while producing the same drinking behavior (and suppose this belief is false). Here, the electrochemical process that produces fitness-enhancing behavior also produces a false belief. The ANPD can even produce “garbage” semantic beliefs that have little to do with the forced behavior, such as making Bill believe that “grass is air” or that “1 + 1 = 3” at the same time it causes Smith to drink the water. The third time Smith is dehydrated the mad scientist does just that; causing Smith to drink the water while also causing him to believe “1 + 1 = 3.” Indeed, the mad scientist can associate just about any belief with the same drinking behavior. Such an artificial neurophysiological device is not only metaphysically possible, but it also seems to be physically possible (given that beliefs and behavior can be brought about by electrochemical means). No, for reasons given above. What reasons are those? You mentioned that if the ANPD controls his thoughts and behavior that it isn’t really his behavior anymore. Why not? Presumably, because it’s not within his control, and something only qualifies as “his behavior” if it’s within his control. But even if behavior by definition entails it being under the agent’s control (which I don’t believe it does) as opposed to “anything that an organism does involving action and response to stimulation” (as this dictionary has as one of its definitions) this is really beside the point. If need be, we can come up with a different label, like behavior*, to refer to the person’s bodily actions in how it responds to its environment. In which case, it remains true that just about any semantic belief can be associated with one’s behavior*.
Well, then the argument fails because evolution optimizes behavior, not behavior* , unless you are taking the organism to have evolved under the control of such ANPD devices. Let's call your apparent definition of behavior where the organism is in control of its own actions c-behavior, and my more standard dictionary definition of behavior d-behavior. Plenty of hard determinists are evolutionists, and so they would say that evolution optimizes d-behavior without really caring whether the organism is in control of its actions. To illustrate, suppose we have two organisms that are identical except that one organism is in control of its actions and the other isn't, and they both exhibit identical d-behavior (they react identically in identical situations etc.). It's clear that natural selection doesn't favor one over the other, and that natural selection thus works to optimize d-behavior.
Quote: Originally Posted by ncole1 If that is the case, then it presumably holds no beliefs at all, because it takes energy to grow and operate a brain, and the brain would not evolve to be able to hold beliefs at all if the organism's genes cannot affect its behavior* under the ANPD device.
I should again point out that I'm not claiming that the ANPD exists in natural selection or even that it is likely to exist in evolution. Rather, the point of the ANPD scenario was to illustrate that SPE is true. Could evolution evolve a creature with a disconnect between beliefs and behavior? Given SPE, it's hard to see why not. It seems conceivable that the most efficient neurophysiology (as for some alien species) that produces complicated advantageous behavior also produces garbage beliefs.
Quote: Originally Posted by ncole1Quote: Originally Posted by Tisthammerw
In any case, don’t seem to have really attacked any premise of the argument I presented.
If you're saying that I'm assuming that rational beliefs and fitness-enhancing beliefs don't go together, I am not. They could go together, and I suspect they in fact do go together. Nonetheless, that wouldn't change the fact that Pr(R|N&E) is low even if we are lucky enough such that R obtains in the actual world. Sorry, but this is just bad math. For "X" = "any scenario or thought experiment (such as the one involving ANPD devices) in which false or not truth-aimed beliefs coexist with fully adaptive behavior or behavior*" , "~" is for "negation of", Pr(RA|N&E) = Pr(RA&X|N&E) + Pr(RA&~X|N&E) = Pr(RA|X&N&E) * Pr (X|N&E) + Pr(RA|~X&N&E) * Pr(~X|N&E) = Pr(RA|X&N&E) * Pr (X|N&E) + Pr(RA|~X&N&E) * [1- Pr(X|N&E)] = [Pr(RA|X&N&E)-Pr(RA|~X&N&E)] * Pr(X|N&E) + Pr(RA|~X&N&E)
Now, given teleosemantics, Pr(RA|~X&N&E) is high, since by definition, all hypothetical circumstances (such as the one involving ANPD devices) in which false or not truth-aimed beliefs coexist with fully adaptive behavior or behavior* are excluded, since this probability is conditional on ~X&N&E . None of this really addresses any premise of my argument. No premise of my argument says that teleosemantics is false; it may indeed be true for our species, but is it true by metaphysical necessity for all neurophysiologies? It does not appear to be. The ANPD scenario is physically possible, proving that even wildly false beliefs can be associated with advantageous behavior. Thanks to SPE, it seems conceivable for the neurophysiology of some alien frog to produce both the behavior of eating the nutritious alien fly and to produce the belief "grass is air."
So even if we define teleosemantics as something like "all beliefs that are not truth-aimed cannot co-exist with adaptive behavior" SPE suggests that teleosemantics is not necessarily true for N&E, and my argument suggests that SPE is in fact true on naturalism.
Incidentally, though I'm not a mathematician, by my lights you seemed to skip a few steps in your mathematics. For example, with this:
Pr(RA|N&E) = Pr(RA&X|N&E) + Pr(RA&~X|N&E) = Pr(RA|X&N&E) * Pr (X|N&E) + Pr(RA|~X&N&E) * Pr(~X|N&E) Here you seemed to use and assume the following equation (where A and B are placeholders for simple or compound propositions):
Pr(A&B|C) = Pr(A|B&C) * Pr(A|B)
The above equation may be true, but it seems (to me) to be not the sort of thing that can be just assumed in a derivation (unlike, say, the addition rule), rather it would seem to be the sort of thing that needs to be proven, like so:
Pr(A&B|C) = Pr(A&B&C)/Pr(C) = [Pr(B&C) * Pr(A|B&C)]/Pr(C) = [Pr(C) * Pr(B|C) * Pr(A|B&C)]/Pr(C) =Pr(B|C) * Pr(A|B&C) =Pr(A|B&C) * Pr(B|C)
In another case you seemed to assume the following
Pr(~A|B) = 1 - Pr(A|B)
A proof for this shall be left as an exercise for the reader. 
In any case Ncole1, by and large you have kind of avoided my actual argument. I'll flesh it out more rigorously this time:
- Naturalism entails that SE or SPE is true, and thus Pr(SE or SPE|N) = 1.
- If (1) is true, then in the Alien Scenario (in which we consider N&E with respect to some aliens), N&E&SE or N&E&SPE is true.
- If N&E&SE or N&E&SPE is true, then Pr(RA|N&E) is equal to either Pr(RA|N&E&SE) or Pr(R|N&E&SPE).
- Pr(RA|N&E&SE) and Pr(R|N&E&SPE) are low or at best inscrutable (recall that the alien neurophysiology is radically different from our own, and recall the ANPD scenario).
- Therefore, Pr(RA|N&E) is low or at best inscrutable.
Suppose teleosemantics (let's label it T) is true for our species and that Pr(R|N&E&T) is high. How does that affect any premise of the above argument? You could argue that teleosemantics is by metaphysical necessity true for all neurophysiologies, but SPE contradicts this and SPE would seem to be justified by my ANPD argument. So without justification, simply asserting that teleosemantics is true for our species won't be enough to overthrow premise (1).
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afunugsamongus
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Posted 02/08/12
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#596
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Tu Quoque
Quote: Originally Posted by Tisthammerw Let B be our epistemic base (memories, sensory experiences, and so on). If R is properly basic then it is justified and thus one would presumably award it a respectably high epistemic probability for it, such that Pr(R|B) is respectably high. Where T is theism, the following seems to be true:
Pr(R|T) ≥ Pr(R|B)
In contrast, I believe this is true:
Pr(R|N&E) < Pr(R|B)
It feels "proper" to presuppose R, but it isn't clear why N&E ought to reduce that feeling. N&E doesn't commit us to any particular evolutionary history, least of all the kind of mental roulette you suggest.
Quote: Quote: Originally Posted by afunugsamongus Furthermore, if you're allowed to isolate N&E out from the evolutionary context that evidently determined our reliability, why not go a step further and consider P(R) given, say, atomic theory? The probability of R given that we're made of atoms seems low/inscrutable for the same reasons as P(R|N&E). If we have evidence for high P(R), though, it seems that ought to win. You cannot dismiss it from mere skepticism about R, because the 'drug' - N&E, atomic theory, etc. - also depends on R. I'm not sure what you're saying here. Are you asking why the likelihood of R on atomic theory being low does not serve as a defeater for R? If so, I would note that I am eschewing a general principle of defeat here with respect to the Defeater Thesis, relying instead on analogies. I should also point out that neither myself nor Plantinga has assumed that Pr(A|B) being low entails that B is a defeater for A.
Your argument relies on our inability to see a relevant disanalogy between the PT and various scenarios in which R gets defeated. I have identified some disanalogies, but additionally I'm contrasting the Probability Thesis with a scenario in which R survives. If we can't find a relevant disanalogy, then R survives the PT. Right?
The Defeater Thesis
Quote: Quote: Originally Posted by afunugsamongus All five scenarios miss the essential distinction between low P(R) given drug XX, and "low or inscrutable" P(R) given N&E. That sort of thing didn't seem to stop you before: Quote: Originally Posted by afunugsamongus Drug XX defeats R, and N&E doesn't, no matter when they occur
Of course it didn't stop me: the "inscrutable" disjunct only helps N&E.
Quote: In any case, do you agree that if Pr(R|N&E) is low (and I believe it is) then N&E defeats R for the naturalist? If you disagree, what of my argument?
I disagree. Your analogues for N&E (I will call these [X]) defeat their analogues for R (I will call these [R]) only by losing relevant features of the original scenario: -feature 1: pragmatic reasons to presuppose [R], and -feature 2: context explaining why [R] wasn't unlikely.
Quote: Scenario (S1B): I know that my friend Sam has ingested drug XX, a drug that renders one's cognitive faculties unreliable for some of those who take it (and those so afflicted are incapable of detecting their own cognitive unreliability), but I don't know the percentage. The likelihood that Sam's cognitive faculties are reliable is inscrutable to me—I know only that it's low, high, or somewhere in between. I know also however that Sam later comes to believe that an extensive battery of tests has established his cognitive reliability, though I have no independent reason for thinking this occurred. And since Sam obtained his belief about the cognitive tests long after he ingested drug XX, I conclude that I have a defeater for my belief that Sam's cognitive faculties are reliable.
Scenario (S2B): I as a three-year-old child ingest drug XX while being aware of its potential effects (though as before I don't know the percentage of those it renders cognitively unreliable; I know only that it's high, low, or somewhere in between). I know of no relevant difference that distinguishes my case from Sam’s. The case of Sam, learning of drug XX, and ingesting drug XX are my earliest memories. Some years after the incident I come to believe I have taken an extensive battery of tests that establish my cognitive reliability, but since this belief came long after I ingested drug XX, I conclude that I have a defeater for my belief that my cognitive faculties are reliable.
Scenario (S3B): Naturalistic evolution brought about a mutation that causes my body to naturally produce and release drug XX into my body on my third birthday. Similar to (S2B), I know full well the consequences of the mutation and drug XX. Some years after the incident I come to believe I have taken an extensive battery of tests that establish my cognitive reliability, but since this belief came long after drug XX was released into my body, I conclude that I have a defeater for my belief that my cognitive faculties are reliable.
Scenario (S4B): A doctor has injected me with drug XX soon after I was born (the doctor mistakenly thought he was injecting an important vaccine), and I come to believe in the following. I am a renowned scientist who has built a machine that I know is capable of reliably detecting whether and when drug XX entered a person's bloodstream. I administer the test to myself and the machine reports that drug XX came into my bloodstream at around the time I was born. Later I come to believe that I have taken an extensive battery of tests that establish my cognitive reliability, but since this belief came long after drug XX entered my bloodstream, I conclude that I have a defeater for my belief that my cognitive faculties are reliable.
Scenario (S5B): Naturalistic evolution brought about a mutation that causes my body to naturally produce and release drug XX into my body soon after I am born, and I come to believe in the following. I am a renowned scientist who has built a machine that I know is capable of reliably detecting whether and when drug XX entered a person's bloodstream. I administer the test to myself and the machine reports that drug XX came into my bloodstream at around the time I was born. Later I come to believe that I have taken an extensive battery of tests that establish my cognitive reliability, but since this belief came long after drug XX entered my bloodstream, I conclude that I have a defeater for my belief that my cognitive faculties are reliable.
Scenario (S6B): The Probability Thesis is true and Pr(R|N&E) is inscrutable. Moreover, I study philosophy and see for myself that Pr(R|N&E) is inscrutable; I know only that Pr(R|N&E) is low, high, or somewhere in between. Later I come to believe I have taken an extensive battery of tests that establish my cognitive reliability, but since this belief came long after N&E has already affected my cognitive faculties, I conclude that I have a defeater for my belief that my cognitive faculties of reliable.
Let S1A, S2A, S3A...S6A be the same as S1B...S6B except that drug XX has a high probability of rendering one's cognitive faculties unreliable and Pr(R|N&E) is low instead of inscrutable. Do you believe R is defeated in S6A? If not, where does the slippery slope stop? Do you believe R is defeated in S6B? If not, where does the slippery slope stop?
S1A defeat [R] but lacks features 1 and 2 S2A-S5A defeat [R] but lack feature 2; if drug XX was mixed with antidote then no defeat S6A no defeat
If [X] has an inscrutable effect on [R], then we typically (and properly) assume it has a negligible effect on [R]. Thus no B-type scenarios defeat [R].
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Tisthammerw
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Posted 02/12/12
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#597
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Symbolism
SE = semantic epiphenomenalism (a belief's syntax or neurophysiological properties is causally efficacious, but a belief's semantic content, i.e. the belief that p for some proposition p, does not cause anything).
SPE = semantic pseudo-epiphenomenalism (roughly, the idea for any given behavior B, there are innumerably many semantic contents C—even C’s wildly unrelated to the external environment—that could be associated with B).
Garbage beliefs = beliefs that have little to do with the organism's surrounding environment, as in dreams. Under SPE, it's possible for an organism's neurophysiology to produce both garbage beliefs and advantageous behavior.
Tu Quoque
Quote: Originally Posted by afunugsamongus It feels "proper" to presuppose R, but it isn't clear why N&E ought to reduce that feeling. N&E doesn't commit us to any particular evolutionary history, least of all the kind of mental roulette you suggest. If you don't see any reason why N&E ought to reduce that feeling then I suggest you attack the Probability Thesis. Very briefly, the idea is that naturalism entails that either SE or SPE is true (the scenario of the artificial neurophysiological device (ANPD) helps illustrate this), such that Pr(SE or SPE|N) is 1. I believe that Pr(R|N&E&SE) and Pr(R|N&E&SPE) are low or at best inscrutable, from which it follows that Pr(R|N&E) is low or at best inscrutable.
Quote: Originally Posted by afunugsamongusQuote: Originally Posted by Tisthammerw I'm not sure what you're saying here. Are you asking why the likelihood of R on atomic theory being low does not serve as a defeater for R? If so, I would note that I am eschewing a general principle of defeat here with respect to the Defeater Thesis, relying instead on analogies. I should also point out that neither myself nor Plantinga has assumed that Pr(A|B) being low entails that B is a defeater for A. Your argument relies on our inability to see a relevant disanalogy between the PT and various scenarios in which R gets defeated. I have identified some disanalogies, but additionally I'm contrasting the Probability Thesis with a scenario in which R survives. If we can't find a relevant disanalogy, then R survives the PT. Right? Technically no; for all EAAN cares theism could be unjustified as well. In any case, a Defeater Thesis with respect to theism would have to be justified, and it seems that a different kind of argument would have to be made for that from the one against naturalism. One of the problems, as I said earlier, is that where T is theism Pr(R|T) ≥ Pr(R|B) seems to be true and if so it doesn't seem like a tu quoque argument against theism could really get off the ground.
The Defeater Thesis
Quote: Originally Posted by afunugsamongusQuote: In any case, do you agree that if Pr(R|N&E) is low (and I believe it is) then N&E defeats R for the naturalist? If you disagree, what of my argument?
I disagree. Your analogues for N&E (I will call these [X]) defeat their analogues for R (I will call these [R]) only by losing relevant features of the original scenario: -feature 1: pragmatic reasons to presuppose [R], and -feature 2: context explaining why [R] wasn't unlikely.
Quote: Scenario (S1B): I know that my friend Sam has ingested drug XX, a drug that renders one's cognitive faculties unreliable for some of those who take it (and those so afflicted are incapable of detecting their own cognitive unreliability), but I don't know the percentage. The likelihood that Sam's cognitive faculties are reliable is inscrutable to me—I know only that it's low, high, or somewhere in between. I know also however that Sam later comes to believe that an extensive battery of tests has established his cognitive reliability, though I have no independent reason for thinking this occurred. And since Sam obtained his belief about the cognitive tests long after he ingested drug XX, I conclude that I have a defeater for my belief that Sam's cognitive faculties are reliable.
Scenario (S2B): I as a three-year-old child ingest drug XX while being aware of its potential effects (though as before I don't know the percentage of those it renders cognitively unreliable; I know only that it's high, low, or somewhere in between). I know of no relevant difference that distinguishes my case from Sam’s. The case of Sam, learning of drug XX, and ingesting drug XX are my earliest memories. Some years after the incident I come to believe I have taken an extensive battery of tests that establish my cognitive reliability, but since this belief came long after I ingested drug XX, I conclude that I have a defeater for my belief that my cognitive faculties are reliable.
Scenario (S3B): Naturalistic evolution brought about a mutation that causes my body to naturally produce and release drug XX into my body on my third birthday. Similar to (S2B), I know full well the consequences of the mutation and drug XX. Some years after the incident I come to believe I have taken an extensive battery of tests that establish my cognitive reliability, but since this belief came long after drug XX was released into my body, I conclude that I have a defeater for my belief that my cognitive faculties are reliable.
Scenario (S4B): A doctor has injected me with drug XX soon after I was born (the doctor mistakenly thought he was injecting an important vaccine), and I come to believe in the following. I am a renowned scientist who has built a machine that I know is capable of reliably detecting whether and when drug XX entered a person's bloodstream. I administer the test to myself and the machine reports that drug XX came into my bloodstream at around the time I was born. Later I come to believe that I have taken an extensive battery of tests that establish my cognitive reliability, but since this belief came long after drug XX entered my bloodstream, I conclude that I have a defeater for my belief that my cognitive faculties are reliable.
Scenario (S5B): Naturalistic evolution brought about a mutation that causes my body to naturally produce and release drug XX into my body soon after I am born, and I come to believe in the following. I am a renowned scientist who has built a machine that I know is capable of reliably detecting whether and when drug XX entered a person's bloodstream. I administer the test to myself and the machine reports that drug XX came into my bloodstream at around the time I was born. Later I come to believe that I have taken an extensive battery of tests that establish my cognitive reliability, but since this belief came long after drug XX entered my bloodstream, I conclude that I have a defeater for my belief that my cognitive faculties are reliable.
Scenario (S6B): The Probability Thesis is true and Pr(R|N&E) is inscrutable. Moreover, I study philosophy and see for myself that Pr(R|N&E) is inscrutable; I know only that Pr(R|N&E) is low, high, or somewhere in between. Later I come to believe I have taken an extensive battery of tests that establish my cognitive reliability, but since this belief came long after N&E has already affected my cognitive faculties, I conclude that I have a defeater for my belief that my cognitive faculties of reliable.
Let S1A, S2A, S3A...S6A be the same as S1B...S6B except that drug XX has a high probability of rendering one's cognitive faculties unreliable and Pr(R|N&E) is low instead of inscrutable. Do you believe R is defeated in S6A? If not, where does the slippery slope stop? Do you believe R is defeated in S6B? If not, where does the slippery slope stop?
S1A defeat [R] but lacks features 1 and 2 S2A-S5A defeat [R] but lack feature 2; if drug XX was mixed with antidote then no defeat I don't think that quite works. Suppose the reason why a small percentage of people are immune to drug XX is that these people have a gene producing a protein that blocks the reliability-destroying effects of the drug (effectively producing an antidote), but nobody else is immune to the drug. Now consider scenario S2A. I come to believe that I have passed a series of cognitive tests establishing my cognitive reliability, thereby leading me to believe my body has naturally produced an antidote to drug XX and was thereby mixed with the drug (since it's the only way my cognitive faculties could be reliable). However, since these cognitive tests happened after drug XX came into my body, I conclude that my belief that I have the blocking gene was probably produced by unreliable cognitive faculties. Even if by lucky coincidence I had the antidote-producing gene, it seems R would be defeated for me because I come to believe that I have the blocking gene after ingesting drug XX. The antidote thing might work as a defeater-deflector if I knew it to be true before ingesting drug XX, but that isn't the case in any of these scenarios.
Quote: Originally Posted by afunugsamongus S6A no defeat Then what relevant difference is there between S5A and S6A? Presumably you believe something like, "Scenario S6A has a certain context that explains why R is not unlikely," but that's awfully vague. What specifically is in scenario S6A that saves R from defeat? It's hard to see what that would be. In S6A I come to believe I have passed a series of tests that establish my cognitive reliability, but that is present in S5A as well. Or suppose in S6A I come to believe that as a result of the specific kind of evolution that I am a product of, my genes (together with proper nutrition etc.) have given me reliable cognitive faculties. But we can introduce the same sort of thing in S5A in the form of the blocking gene, and R is defeated there. So what, specifically, is the relevant difference between S5A and S6A such that R is not defeated in S6A?
Quote: Originally Posted by afunugsamongus If [X] has an inscrutable effect on [R], then we typically (and properly) assume it has a negligible effect on [R]. Thus no B-type scenarios defeat [R]. That does seem a bit arbitrary. If Sam ingests drug XX, then ex hypothesi we don't know that the probability is negligible with respect to rendering Sam's cognitive faculties unreliable. Why then should we assume the drug's effects are negligible? Suppose Sam is a surgeon who is going to operate on you and you see that he took drug XX by mistake. The surgeon says he knows the drug renders people's cognitive faculties unreliable for some percentage of those who take it but he can't recall what the percentage is; it could be high, low, or somewhere in between. The probability is genuinely inscrutable: your epistemic justification for the percentage being low is no greater than for the percentage being high. In that case, would you want the surgeon to operate on you? The answer seems clearly no, because after Sam ingested drug XX you have a defeater for your belief that the surgeon's cognitive faculties are reliable. I just don't see any reason why one should assume the effect is negligible in situations like this. What is the rationale for your assumption?
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afunugsamongus
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Posted 02/18/12
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#598
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Probability Thesis & Tu Quoque
Quote: Originally Posted by Tisthammerw If you don't see any reason why N&E ought to reduce that feeling then I suggest you attack the Probability Thesis. Very briefly, the idea is that naturalism entails that either SE or SPE is true (the scenario of the artificial neurophysiological device (ANPD) helps illustrate this), such that Pr(SE or SPE|N) is 1. I believe that Pr(R|N&E&SE) and Pr(R|N&E&SPE) are low or at best inscrutable, from which it follows that Pr(R|N&E) is low or at best inscrutable.
Naturalism doesn't entail anything like SE. The effects of belief content are not "hard to see" in any sense; they are typically obvious, for example grief upon hearing of a tragedy. Beliefs run on brains like games run on computers; and since we play the same games on different media, no disanalogy comes from the ANPD scenario. Semicolons are awesome; I shall deploy them liberally.
Quote: Quote: Originally Posted by afunugsamongus Your argument relies on our inability to see a relevant disanalogy between the PT and various scenarios in which R gets defeated. I have identified some disanalogies, but additionally I'm contrasting the Probability Thesis with a scenario in which R survives. If we can't find a relevant disanalogy, then R survives the PT. Right? [...] theism [...]
PT = Probability Thesis. Understandable misunderstanding. Heading fixed. If we can't find a relevant disanalogy, then R survives the PT. Right?
I've missed a fairly obvious contradiction in your argument. You say that given N&E, reliability costs energy, but can have no physical effects. Which one is it? If beliefs could mean literally anything and it wouldn't matter to evolution, then there's no way evolution can help defeat a presumption about those meanings.
Defeater Thesis
Quote: Quote: Originally Posted by afunugsamongus I disagree. Your analogues for N&E (I will call these [X]) defeat their analogues for R (I will call these [R]) only by losing relevant features of the original scenario: -feature 1: pragmatic reasons to presuppose [R], and -feature 2: context explaining why [R] wasn't unlikely.
S1A defeat [R] but lacks features 1 and 2 S2A-S5A defeat [R] but lack feature 2; if drug XX was mixed with antidote then no defeat I don't think that quite works. Suppose the reason why a small percentage of people are immune to drug XX is that these people have a gene producing a protein that blocks the reliability-destroying effects of the drug (effectively producing an antidote), but nobody else is immune to the drug. Now consider scenario S2A. I come to believe that I have passed a series of cognitive tests establishing my cognitive reliability, thereby leading me to believe my body has naturally produced an antidote to drug XX and was thereby mixed with the drug (since it's the only way my cognitive faculties could be reliable). However, since these cognitive tests happened after drug XX came into my body, I conclude that my belief that I have the blocking gene was probably produced by unreliable cognitive faculties. Even if by lucky coincidence I had the antidote-producing gene, it seems R would be defeated for me because I come to believe that I have the blocking gene after ingesting drug XX. The antidote thing might work as a defeater-deflector if I knew it to be true before ingesting drug XX, but that isn't the case in any of these scenarios. The drug has no chronological priority over the cure. I come to believe that I've taken a drug+cure combo after ingesting it, obviously, but the only way for the drug to defeat R is for me to believe I've taken it without the cure. And the chance of R given the full evolutionary story of our origins is much better than "a small percentage"; you haven't duplicated feature 2.
Quote: Quote: Originally Posted by afunugsamongus S6A no defeat Then what relevant difference is there between S5A and S6A? Presumably you believe something like, "Scenario S6A has a certain context that explains why R is not unlikely," but that's awfully vague. What specifically is in scenario S6A that saves R from defeat? It's hard to see what that would be. In S6A I come to believe I have passed a series of tests that establish my cognitive reliability, but that is present in S5A as well. Or suppose in S6A I come to believe that as a result of the specific kind of evolution that I am a product of, my genes (together with proper nutrition etc.) have given me reliable cognitive faculties. But we can introduce the same sort of thing in S5A in the form of the blocking gene, and R is defeated there. So what, specifically, is the relevant difference between S5A and S6A such that R is not defeated in S6A? In S6A we know that R was likely given the way our faculties evolved. At no time is N&E our only relevant belief; anytime we contemplate P(R), evidence (that reliability is adaptive and that the individual faculties enabling beliefs are reliable - call these facts Y) makes P(R) high - that is, P(R|N&E&Y) is always high.
Examining evidence Y is not like taking "extensive tests". It is one thing to decide whether R is threatened with defeat, and another to decide whether R can be salvaged in spite of such a threat. Reliability tests fit the latter pattern; a query into the circumstances of your taking the drug conforms to the former.
Quote: Quote: Originally Posted by afunugsamongus If [X] has an inscrutable effect on [R], then we typically (and properly) assume it has a negligible effect on [R]. Thus no B-type scenarios defeat [R]. That does seem a bit arbitrary. If Sam ingests drug XX, then ex hypothesi we don't know that the probability is negligible with respect to rendering Sam's cognitive faculties unreliable. Why then should we assume the drug's effects are negligible? Suppose Sam is a surgeon who is going to operate on you and you see that he took drug XX by mistake. The surgeon says he knows the drug renders people's cognitive faculties unreliable for some percentage of those who take it but he can't recall what the percentage is; it could be high, low, or somewhere in between. The probability is genuinely inscrutable: your epistemic justification for the percentage being low is no greater than for the percentage being high. In that case, would you want the surgeon to operate on you? The answer seems clearly no, because after Sam ingested drug XX you have a defeater for your belief that the surgeon's cognitive faculties are reliable. I just don't see any reason why one should assume the effect is negligible in situations like this. What is the rationale for your assumption?
If the effect of [X] on [R] is inscrutable, then [X] is equally liable to increase or to decrease the odds of [R]. Lacking any reason to suppose any effect at all, we leave the odds where they were.
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Tisthammerw
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Posted 02/19/12
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#599
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First some defining of terms:
SE = semantic epiphenomenalism (a belief's syntax or neurophysiological properties is causally efficacious, but a belief's semantic content, i.e. the belief that p for some proposition p, does not cause anything).
SPE = semantic pseudo-epiphenomenalism (roughly, the idea for any given behavior B, there are innumerably many semantic contents C—even C’s wildly unrelated to the external environment—that could be associated with B).
Garbage beliefs = beliefs that have little to do with the organism's surrounding environment, as in dreams. Under SPE, it's possible for an organism's neurophysiology to produce both garbage beliefs and advantageous behavior.
Probability Thesis & Tu Quoque
Quote: Originally Posted by afunugsamongusQuote: Originally Posted by Tisthammerw If you don't see any reason why N&E ought to reduce that feeling then I suggest you attack the Probability Thesis. Very briefly, the idea is that naturalism entails that either SE or SPE is true (the scenario of the artificial neurophysiological device (ANPD) helps illustrate this), such that Pr(SE or SPE|N) is 1. I believe that Pr(R|N&E&SE) and Pr(R|N&E&SPE) are low or at best inscrutable, from which it follows that Pr(R|N&E) is low or at best inscrutable. Naturalism doesn't entail anything like SE. If you think that's true, you'll have to address my argument that naturalism entails that either SE or SPE. Of course, it could be that SPE is true and we humans are just fortunate enough that beliefs influence behavior in a way that a rational agent would behave, but that would be a different objection, one not implying that naturalism doesn't entail anything like SE.
Quote: Originally Posted by afunugsamongusQuote: Quote: Originally Posted by afunugsamongus Your argument relies on our inability to see a relevant disanalogy between the PT and various scenarios in which R gets defeated. I have identified some disanalogies, but additionally I'm contrasting the Probability Thesis with a scenario in which R survives. If we can't find a relevant disanalogy, then R survives the PT. Right? [...] theism [...]
PT = Probability Thesis. Understandable misunderstanding. Heading fixed. If we can't find a relevant disanalogy, then R survives the PT. Right? I'm not sure what you mean here. By relevant disanalogy, are you referring to finding a relevant disanalogy between e.g. "the likelihood of R on atomic theory being low does not serve as a defeater for R" and the Defeater Thesis? It depends on how good the analogy is, since the Defeater also relies on analogies. Suppose you were to put the analogy in the form of a deductive argument:
- If the Defeater Thesis is true, then Pr(R|atomic theory) being low is a defeater for R.
- Pr(R|atomic theory) being low is not a defeater for R.
- Therefore, the Defeater Thesis is false.
In this case I wouldn't find the first premise very convincing, and I would probably ask for some justification for it. In contrast I think the analogies used to support the Defeater Thesis work much better. For example, both S5A and S6A involve evolution having a high probability of forming unreliable cognitive faculties.
Quote: Originally Posted by afunugsamongus I've missed a fairly obvious contradiction in your argument. You say that given N&E, reliability costs energy, but can have no physical effects. Which one is it? If beliefs could mean literally anything and it wouldn't matter to evolution, then there's no way evolution can help defeat a presumption about those meanings. I'm not sure what you're saying here. On N&E, both reliability and unreliability of cognitive faculties can cost energy. Given that N&E entails that either SE or SPE is true, there doesn't seem to be any a priori reason to think that the most selectable and efficient neurophysiologies that produce sufficiently advantageous behavior also produce mostly true beliefs.
Defeater Thesis
Quote: Originally Posted by afunugsamongusQuote: Originally Posted by TisthammerwQuote: S1A defeat [R] but lacks features 1 and 2 S2A-S5A defeat [R] but lack feature 2; if drug XX was mixed with antidote then no defeat I don't think that quite works. Suppose the reason why a small percentage of people are immune to drug XX is that these people have a gene producing a protein that blocks the reliability-destroying effects of the drug (effectively producing an antidote), but nobody else is immune to the drug. Now consider scenario S2A. I come to believe that I have passed a series of cognitive tests establishing my cognitive reliability, thereby leading me to believe my body has naturally produced an antidote to drug XX and was thereby mixed with the drug (since it's the only way my cognitive faculties could be reliable). However, since these cognitive tests happened after drug XX came into my body, I conclude that my belief that I have the blocking gene was probably produced by unreliable cognitive faculties. Even if by lucky coincidence I had the antidote-producing gene, it seems R would be defeated for me because I come to believe that I have the blocking gene after ingesting drug XX. The antidote thing might work as a defeater-deflector if I knew it to be true before ingesting drug XX, but that isn't the case in any of these scenarios. The drug has no chronological priority over the cure. I come to believe that I've taken a drug+cure combo after ingesting it, obviously, but the only way for the drug to defeat R is for me to believe I've taken it without the cure. You haven't quite addressed my counterexample to this, viz. scenario S2A. I come to believe that I have passed a series of cognitive tests establishing my cognitive reliability, thereby leading me to believe my body has naturally produced an antidote to drug XX and was thereby mixed with the drug (since it's the only way my cognitive faculties could be reliable). However, since these cognitive tests happened after drug XX came into my body, I conclude that my belief that I have the blocking gene was probably produced by unreliable cognitive faculties. Even if by lucky coincidence I had the antidote-producing gene, it seems R would be defeated for me because I come to believe that I have the blocking gene after ingesting drug XX. Isn't that right?
Quote: Originally Posted by afunugsamongus And the chance of R given the full evolutionary story of our origins is much better than "a small percentage"; you haven't duplicated feature 2. Given the full evolutionary store of my origins in which the antidote was fortunately produced, the chance of R is much better than a "small percentage." The problem of course is that I have a defeater for my belief that the full evolutionary story of my origins resulted in R. It seems difficult to find a relevant, specific difference that saves R from defeat in scenario S6A.
Quote: Originally Posted by afunugsamongusQuote: Quote: Originally Posted by afunugsamongus S6A no defeat Then what relevant difference is there between S5A and S6A? Presumably you believe something like, "Scenario S6A has a certain context that explains why R is not unlikely," but that's awfully vague. What specifically is in scenario S6A that saves R from defeat? It's hard to see what that would be. In S6A I come to believe I have passed a series of tests that establish my cognitive reliability, but that is present in S5A as well. Or suppose in S6A I come to believe that as a result of the specific kind of evolution that I am a product of, my genes (together with proper nutrition etc.) have given me reliable cognitive faculties. But we can introduce the same sort of thing in S5A in the form of the blocking gene, and R is defeated there. So what, specifically, is the relevant difference between S5A and S6A such that R is not defeated in S6A? In S6A we know that R was likely given the way our faculties evolved. At no time is N&E our only relevant belief; anytime we contemplate P(R), evidence (that reliability is adaptive and that the individual faculties enabling beliefs are reliable - call these facts Y) makes P(R) high - that is, P(R|N&E&Y) is always high. Unfortunately this is still a bit vague. Exactly why do we know these things in scenario S6A but not S5A? To make things easier, suppose Sam lucked out in scenario S1A, and I lucked out in scenarios S2A through S5A such that evolution gave me reliable cognitive faculties after all (thanks to the blocking gene etc.). Still, it seems that a defeater for cognitive reliability is present in these scenarios. So I ask again, what specific, relevant difference is there between S5A and S6A? Why for example in S5A don't I know that my faculties enabling beliefs are reliable, but I do in S6A? Why in S5A don't I know that R is likely given the way my faculties evolved, but I know this in S6A? If in S6A the mechanism of probable unreliability were a gene that produced drug XX (and yielded SE-like behavior), and I was aware of that mechanism as in scenario S5A, presumably you would agree that R is defeated in S6A. But if N&E yielding probable cognitive unreliability via SE-like behavior in a way different from drug XX somehow saves it, whereas N&E producing unreliability via drug XX defeats R, why on earth is this a relevant difference? How N&E renders cognitive unreliability probable doesn't really seem to matter here. To make what I'm saying more perspicuous maybe it'll help if I insert an intermediate scenario. Call "the XX-mutation" a mutation that causes one’s body to naturally produce and release drug XX into the body soon after one is born.
Scenario (S4A): Naturalistic evolution gave me the XX-mutation and I come to believe in the following. I am a renowned scientist who has built a machine that I know is capable of reliably detecting whether and when drug XX entered a person’s bloodstream. For most of my life I have believed that I am the product of a sort of evolution that makes my cognitive reliability very likely. After some years though I administer the test to myself and the machine reports that drug XX came into my bloodstream at around the time I was born. Later I come to believe that I have taken an extensive battery of tests that establish my cognitive reliability, but since this belief came long after drug XX entered my bloodstream, I conclude that I have a defeater for my belief that my cognitive faculties are reliable.
Scenario (S5A): I live on planet XX with a hundred humanoid species. Naturalistic evolution brought about the XX-mutation for some (though not all) races. For the races afflicted with the XX-mutation, due to an SE-like phenomenon these species have fitness-enhancing behavior and are even able to create technology. For example, one race is highly skilled in producing hydropower plants yet they believe that water consists of submicroscopic strawberries. Only a small percentage of races that have the XX-mutation also have the blocking gene. I come to believe in the following. The races of my planet have just begun to discover drug XX, the XX-mutation, and the blocking gene. I initially believe that my species has evolved reliable cognitive faculties and that there is overwhelming evidence for this. I am one of the leading scientists of my species and I discover that drug XX was released into my body as soon as I was born. Not only that, but the same problem holds true for the rest of my race and thirty-nine other races on my planet due to the XX-mutation. A plague erupts on the planet eradicating all species except for the forty races that I believe have the XX-mutation. I conclude that the probability of my humanoid cognitive faculties being reliable given that I am a product of naturalistic evolution on this planet is low. Later I come to believe that I and other members of my race have taken an extensive battery of tests that establish our cognitive reliability, but since this belief came long after drug XX entered my bloodstream, I conclude that I have a defeater for my belief that my cognitive faculties are reliable.
Scenario (S6A): The only humanoid species on my planet is homo sapiens, and all of us have the XX-mutation. I come to believe in the following. Via a nifty combination of scientific and philosophical argumentation, it is proven beyond all reasonable doubt that naturalistic evolution entails that the XX-mutation is inevitably a part of any humanoid's genetics. Though there is the small chance of a humanoid species also having the blocking gene as part of its normal genetics, no other humanoid species would evolve the blocking gene. I conclude that the probability of my humanoid cognitive faculties being reliable given that I am a product of naturalistic evolution is low. Later I come to believe that there is overwhelming evidence for my cognitive reliability (e.g. I believe credible scientists have told me that we all have the blocking gene) but since this belief came after drug XX came into my bloodstream, I conclude that my belief in the blocking gene etc. was likely produced by unreliable cognitive faculties, and that I have a defeater for my belief that my cognitive faculties are reliable.
Scenario (S7A): the Probability Thesis is true and Pr(R|N&E) is low, but I do not initially believe this and instead think I am the product of a sort of evolution that makes my cognitive reliability very likely. Later however I study philosophy and see for myself that the probability of my humanoid cognitive faculties being reliable given that I am a product of naturalistic evolution is low. Afterwards I come to believe I have taken an extensive battery of tests that establish my cognitive reliability, but since this belief came long after N&E has already affected my cognitive faculties, I conclude that I have a defeater for my belief that my cognitive faculties are reliable.
So where does the slippery slope stop this time? It’s particularly hard to find a relevant difference between (S6A) and (S7A). One might say in (S7A) we know of overwhelming evidence in addition to N&E that makes R likely, but why exactly do we know of this in (S7A) but not in (S6A)? To make the problem more explicit, imagine that the two worlds of (S6A) and (S7A) are essentially identical apart from the differences entailed in (S6A), such that I believe that the specific type of naturalistic evolution my species is a product of has given me genes that (together with proper nutrition etc.) makes it likely that my cognitive faculties are reliable, that cognitive science and evolutionary biology has given us strong evidence for human cognitive reliability, that truth-conducive faculties are adaptive in Earth primates, and so forth. I also believe that we have the blocking gene to nullify the effects of the XX-mutation. On top of that, let us say that the people in scenarios (S1A) to (S6A) lucked out to the point where everyone has the blocking gene. Yet still belief in cognitive reliability seems defeated when the people believe that all of the alleged evidence for cognitive reliability is obtained long after drug XX enters the bloodstream. So how exactly is it that the alleged evidence for R is defeated in scenario (S6A) but not in scenario (S7A)? If there is a relevant difference between the two scenarios, what is it?
One could believe that the relevant difference between scenarios (S6A) and (S7A) is N&E’s mechanism of probable cognitive unreliability, i.e. the mechanism that makes Pr(R|N&E) low. In (S6A) naturalistic evolution’s mechanism of probable cognitive unreliability is drug XX, whereas in (S7A) it is (presumably) some other physiological process. But this hardly seems like a relevant difference when the different causes produce essentially the same effect: making it unlikely that one’s humanoid cognitive faculties are reliable given that one is a product of naturalistic evolution. In scenarios (S6A) and (S7A), what N&E’s mechanism of probable cognitive unreliability is (whether it be drug XX or some other mechanism) does not seem to matter.
Quote: Originally Posted by afunugsamongusQuote: Quote: Originally Posted by afunugsamongus If [X] has an inscrutable effect on [R], then we typically (and properly) assume it has a negligible effect on [R]. Thus no B-type scenarios defeat [R]. That does seem a bit arbitrary. If Sam ingests drug XX, then ex hypothesi we don't know that the probability is negligible with respect to rendering Sam's cognitive faculties unreliable. Why then should we assume the drug's effects are negligible? Suppose Sam is a surgeon who is going to operate on you and you see that he took drug XX by mistake. The surgeon says he knows the drug renders people's cognitive faculties unreliable for some percentage of those who take it but he can't recall what the percentage is; it could be high, low, or somewhere in between. The probability is genuinely inscrutable: your epistemic justification for the percentage being low is no greater than for the percentage being high. In that case, would you want the surgeon to operate on you? The answer seems clearly no, because after Sam ingested drug XX you have a defeater for your belief that the surgeon's cognitive faculties are reliable. I just don't see any reason why one should assume the effect is negligible in situations like this. What is the rationale for your assumption? If the effect of [X] on [R] is inscrutable, then [X] is equally liable to increase or to decrease the odds of [R]. Lacking any reason to suppose any effect at all, we leave the odds where they were. Remember the scenario though: the likelihood of the reliability-destroying effects is genuinely inscrutable to you to the point where the probability of drug XX affecting the surgeon being high is no less justified than the probability being low. Again I ask, in these circumstances would you want this surgeon to operate on you? Would you really have no defeater for the surgeon's cognitive reliability here?
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afunugsamongus
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Posted 03/06/12
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#600
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Probability Thesis & Tu Quoque
Regarding your argument that naturalism entails SE or SPE:
Quote: With the same syntactic properties, we have the same physiochemical properties of the human body and therefore get the same behavioral results (muscle contractions etc.); thus whatever semantic content that gets generated from the physiochemical processes doesn’t appear to matter. While the electrochemical reactions in the brain may bring about semantic content, the semantic content itself doesn’t seem to cause anything.
A man's behavior is determined by his body's physicochemical makeup, but that's no reason to view belief content as a worthless add-on. Just as we've got naturalistically respectable reasons talk in terms of tables instead of just their atoms, we've got naturalistically respectable reasons to speak of full-fledged (semantic) beliefs instead of just their neurons (syntax). And it is not that tables/beliefs are proxies or linguistic artifacts standing in for their atoms/neurons; rather we have definite experiences of tables/beliefs which connect scientifically to our experiences of atoms/neurons. If you define 'table syntax' to include atoms and the relevant laws governing the behavior of tables, you have not shown that table-properties (sturdiness, texture, etc.) don't matter - if anything you have begun to explain why they matter. Likewise if you define 'belief syntax' to include neurons and the relevant laws governing the behavior of beliefs, you have not shown that belief-properties (truth, topic, etc.) don't matter.
Quote: Suppose you were to put the analogy in the form of a deductive argument: - If the Defeater Thesis is true, then Pr(R|atomic theory) being low is a defeater for R.
- Pr(R|atomic theory) being low is not a defeater for R.
- Therefore, the Defeater Thesis is false.
In this case I wouldn't find the first premise very convincing, and I would probably ask for some justification for it. In contrast I think the analogies used to support the Defeater Thesis work much better. For example, both S5A and S6A involve evolution having a high probability of forming unreliable cognitive faculties.
My argument for 1. above is that I can't think of a relevant disanalogy (exactly like your argument for the analogies behind the Defeater Thesis).
Quote: Quote: Originally Posted by afunugsamongus I've missed a fairly obvious contradiction in your argument. You say that given N&E, reliability costs energy, but can have no physical effects. Which one is it? If beliefs could mean literally anything and it wouldn't matter to evolution, then there's no way evolution can help defeat a presumption about those meanings. I'm not sure what you're saying here. On N&E, both reliability and unreliability of cognitive faculties can cost energy. Given that N&E entails that either SE or SPE is true, there doesn't seem to be any a priori reason to think that the most selectable and efficient neurophysiologies that produce sufficiently advantageous behavior also produce mostly true beliefs.
If SE or SPE is true then reliability can't cost energy because that would be an effect; so there's no reason to suppose low P(R|N&E&SE).
Defeater Thesis
Quote: Quote: Originally Posted by afunugsamongus The drug has no chronological priority over the cure. I come to believe that I've taken a drug+cure combo after ingesting it, obviously, but the only way for the drug to defeat R is for me to believe I've taken it without the cure. You haven't quite addressed my counterexample to this, viz. scenario S2A. I come to believe that I have passed a series of cognitive tests establishing my cognitive reliability, thereby leading me to believe my body has naturally produced an antidote to drug XX and was thereby mixed with the drug (since it's the only way my cognitive faculties could be reliable). However, since these cognitive tests happened after drug XX came into my body, I conclude that my belief that I have the blocking gene was probably produced by unreliable cognitive faculties. Even if by lucky coincidence I had the antidote-producing gene, it seems R would be defeated for me because I come to believe that I have the blocking gene after ingesting drug XX. Isn't that right?
Test XX shows that I've taken drug XX; test YY shows that I've taken the antidote. Since both come out positive then we have a story about drug XX causing us to hallucinate test YY, and on the other hand we have a story where appearances are correct. We've got no statistical basis for deciding between the two stories, therefore no reason to say that test YY was "probably produced by unreliable cognitive faculties". Since we have pragmatic reasons to presuppose R (feature #1), something more substantial is required to defeat R.
Quote: The problem of course is that I have a defeater for my belief that the full evolutionary story of my origins resulted in R. It seems difficult to find a relevant, specific difference that saves R from defeat in scenario S6A.
You defeat the full story if you defeat R, but when justifying that defeater for R - the Defeater Thesis - you can't presuppose that the full story has been defeated. The "just add P" argument, as I've explained before, is viciously circular.
Still, it may be hard to see why the full story (feature 2) should count as support for R when it relies on the presupposition of R. What feature 2 does is block one way we might come to deny R, given an initial presupposition of R. That path closed by feature 2 is exactly where the EAAN tries to lead us - doubt over how evolution could select for cognitive reliability.
Quote: Quote: Originally Posted by afunugsamongus In S6A we know that R was likely given the way our faculties evolved. At no time is N&E our only relevant belief; anytime we contemplate P(R), evidence (that reliability is adaptive and that the individual faculties enabling beliefs are reliable - call these facts Y) makes P(R) high - that is, P(R|N&E&Y) is always high. Exactly why don't we know these things in scenario S5A? To make things easier, suppose Sam lucked out in scenario S1A, and I lucked out in scenarios S2A through S5A such that evolution gave me reliable cognitive faculties after all (thanks to the blocking gene etc.). Still, it seems that a defeater for cognitive reliability is present in these scenarios. So I ask again, what specific, relevant difference is there between S5A and S6A? Why for example in S5A don't I know that my faculties enabling beliefs are reliable, but I do in S6A? Why in S5A don't I know that R is likely given the way my faculties evolved, but I know this in S6A? If in S6A the mechanism of probable unreliability were a gene that produced drug XX (and yielded SE-like behavior), and I was aware of that mechanism as in scenario S5A, presumably you would agree that R is defeated in S6A. But if N&E yielding probable cognitive unreliability via SE-like behavior in a way different from drug XX somehow saves it, whereas N&E producing unreliability via drug XX defeats R, why on earth is this a relevant difference? How N&E renders cognitive unreliability probable doesn't really seem to matter here.
We do know those things in S5A (therefore N&E doesn't defeat R in S5A), but we don't know their analogues, i.e. what prevents drug XX from defeating R in S5A. Obviously whether Sam or you lucked out is irrelevant. So I answer again, Y is the specific, relevant difference. If any of your scenarios included an antidote or mutation whose evidence was on par with that of drug XX, where you can test positive for the antidote before testing positive for drug XX, then drug XX wouldn't defeat R in that scenario.
It may be that taking extensive cognitive tests is a proper analogue for learning Y. A naturalist who is ignorant of Y (and believes the probability thesis minus the 'inscrutable' disjunct) could indeed have a defeater for R. But this reply is too general - any objection to the EAAN could be substituted for Y so that the argument applies only to people who are sufficiently naive.
Your updated scenarios all involve defeaters for R, though S7A gets one only if the "later...is low" sentence refers to P(R) given all that you know. In that case our protagonist would rightly reject R; but it is not like admitting the probability thesis, which refers to P(R) given just N&E.
Quote: Quote: Originally Posted by afunugsamongus If the effect of [X] on [R] is inscrutable, then [X] is equally liable to increase or to decrease the odds of [R]. Lacking any reason to suppose any effect at all, we leave the odds where they were. Remember the scenario though: the likelihood of the reliability destroying effects is genuinely inscrutable to you to the point where the probability of drug XX affecting the surgeon being high is no less justified than the probability being low. Again I ask, in these circumstances would you want this surgeon to operate on you? Would you really have no defeater for the surgeon's cognitive reliability here?
I only need my surgeon to meet some (fairly high) minimum level of reliability, above which his improved cognition yields diminishing returns. So I'd prefer an ordinary surgeon with a presumably high chance of meeting this requirement, to an XX-drugged surgeon, with a lower chance of meeting the minimum due to a wider range of reliability levels. This is not to say that the one surgeon has more 'cognitive reliability', translated as likelihood of tracking reality, than the other, although he is more 'reliable' in the sense that I ought to rely on him.
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