| Tisthammerw |
| Posted 11/14/11 at 11:28 PM | Reply with quote #571 |
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Egads, has it been 12 days? Ah well, time for the recap:
The Recap Symbolism recap: - R = Our cognitive faculties are reliable
- N = Naturalism is true (the supernatural does not exist; only the natural realm is real)
- SE = Semantic epiphenomenalism (defined in post #1) is true.
- RA = the cognitive faculties of the aliens (mentioned in post #1) are reliable.
- RC = the cognitive faculties of Clint (mentioned in post #1) are reliable
- R' = we have baseline cognitive ability (the sort where a person not having R' implies that individual having no beliefs at all, based on what was said in post #172).
- RA' = the aliens in the Alien Scenario have R'-type cognitive ability.
- A' = Despite SE being true, reliable cognitive faculties are adaptive (in that e.g. they are associated with neurophysiological properties that produce fitness-enhancing behavior).
Recap of the "main" argument: - If Pr(R|N&E) is low or inscrutable, then N&E serves as a defeater for R.
- Pr(R|N&E) is low or inscrutable.
- Therefore, N&E serves as a defeater for R.
Premise (1) is the Defeater Thesis and premise (2) is the Probability Thesis. Categorization of sub-arguments (see for post #1 more on this):
(1.1) If RC is defeated in the Clint Scenario, then RA is defeated in the Alien Scenario. (1.2) If RA is defeated in the Alien Scenario, then R is defeated in the Probability Thesis scenario. (1.3) RC is defeated in the Clint Scenario. (1.4) Therefore, R is defeated in the Probability Thesis scenario.
The Post
Probability Thesis: Pr(R|N&E) low/inscrutable?
Quote: Originally Posted by afunugsamongusQuote: Perhaps your real objection is that it is broadly logically impossible to have a different supervenience relation and different semantics associated with the same physiology and the same laws of physics and chemistry. But there doesn't seem to be any good reason to believe this impossibility claim, particularly in light of the mad scientist scenario.
Your mad scientist isn't a counterexample to the impossibility claim, because he changes semantics only by changing the underlying physiology. My argument from the mad scientist wasn't at all meant to be a counterexample; indeed you pretty much ignored my actual argument, which was this:
Quote: Originally Posted by TisthammerwBut there doesn't seem to be any good reason to believe this impossibility claim, particularly in light of the mad scientist scenario. One could thus put forth the following (admittedly rough) argument, where ASE = the artificial neurophysiological device the mad scientist uses:
- If the ASE device is physically possible, then under SE it is at least metaphysically possible for just about any semantic belief to be associated with some given behavior (since semantic properties of beliefs are epiphenomenal).
- The ASE device is physically possible.
- Therefore, under SE it is at least metaphysically possible for just about any semantic belief to be associated with some given behavior.
Argument for (1): if a technological device can do this, there doesn’t appear to be anything special about organic molecules or biological ontology in general that would render it metaphysically impossible for them to do same thing; a different supervenience relation seems conceivable.
Argument for (2): such device comports with all known physical laws. The general idea is that the mad scientist scenario (which is clearly physically possible) has a relevant similarity to the issue in question such that it renders the "different semantics are possible with the same syntax" claim more plausible than not. That said, it doesn't matter much. We can even grant aguendo that SE is false and get something very much like it.
Quote: Originally Posted by afunugsamongusQuote: Of course, there are also possible worlds where the most selectable alien neurophysiology produces mostly true beliefs. But there’s no way to determine on N&E alone which sort of neurophysiology is more selectable because the alien neurophysiology is too mysterious and too different from our own.
Anything appropriately called "belief" has to be similar enough to human belief to share some of our evolutionary reasons for reliability. Any system that evolves representation faculties must be faithful enough so that its responses vary according to relevant features of the environment. You haven't quite addressed my argument against this, but perhaps the fault is at least partially mine for not making it clearer. In any case, I'll use this as an opportunity to re-introduce it. Suppose a mad scientist creates an artificial neurophysiological (ANP) apparatus, a many-tentacled device implanted near Smith’s brainstem that controls both his thoughts and behavior. The mad scientist can remotely control the ANP device’s electrochemical processes to vary Smith’s beliefs and behavior in innumerable and diverse ways. For example, Smith is dehydrated, and the mad scientist, wanting his victim to be in good health, uses the ANP device to force Smith to drink some water while simultaneously making him believe “I am thirsty and this water will quench my thirst.” The second time Smith is dehydrated, the mad scientist uses a different electrochemical setting to make Smith believe “drinking this water will grant me superpowers in the afterlife” while producing the same drinking behavior. Here, the electrochemical process that produces fitness-enhancing behavior also produces a false belief. The ANP device can even produce “garbage” semantic beliefs that have little to do with the forced behavior, such as making Bill believe that “grass is air” or that “1+1=3” at the same time it causes Smith to drink the water. The third time Smith is dehydrated the mad scientist does just that; causing Smith to drink the water while also causing him to believe “1 + 1 = 3.” Indeed, the mad scientist can associate just about any belief with the same drinking behavior. Such an artificial neurophysiological device is not only metaphysically possible, but it also seems to be physically possible (given that beliefs and behavior can be brought about by electrochemical means). The mad scientist scenario shows that false beliefs can be associated with fitness-enhancing behavior, even to the point where the false beliefs are wildly unrelated to the external environment, as in dreams. But if the scenario’s artificial neurophysiology is physically possible, then it’s at least metaphysically possible for an evolved creature’s natural neurophysiology to have the same “disconnect” between semantics and behavior. As with semantic epiphenomenalism, the semantic content produced by the fitness-enhancing neurophysiological process doesn’t need to have anything to do with the environment. So even if we accept that syntax and semantics are the same thing, in a purely physical view of the mind the spirit of semantic epiphenomenalism remains: for any given behavior B, there are innumerably many semantic contents C—even C’s wildly unrelated to the external environment—that could be associated with B. One could argue that the relation between semantic content and behavior is in this way functionally equivalent to SE in spite of the falsity of SE. Call this view semantic pseudo-epiphenomenalism. The mad scientist scenario suggests that given naturalism, if semantic epiphenomenalism is not true, then semantic pseudo-epiphenomenalism is, with both choices giving us SE-like behavior. Both semantic epiphenomenalism and semantic pseudo-epiphenomenalism permit a great divorce between beliefs and behavior (think of the third and final case in the mad scientist scenario). One reason for the SE-like behavior is this: if semantics and syntax were (perhaps per impossibile) the same property, it would be possible for an agent’s “semantics” to causally influence behavior in a very different way from how a rational agent would behave. It is of course quite natural for an adherent of the “semantics causes behavior” view to believe that it does so in a way that a rational agent would behave. Yet while semantics influencing behavior in a rational manner are possible, e.g. “I am hungry” causing the person to eat food, semantics causing behavior in an irrational manner is also possible. To illustrate, think of an alien frog whose neurophysiology is very different from an earth frog. In light of the mad scientist scenario, we can conceive of a neurophysiology that causes the alien frog to snap out its tongue to capture the alien fly while also causing the frog believe that “eating this fly will kill me and I don't want to die, therefore I should eat it.” We might say the alien frog is being irrational in its behavior, but natural selection does not select for rationality, it selects for advantageous behavior. We can even conceive of the alien frog having a semantic content that has nothing to do with the external environment, as in the third case of the mad scientist scenario, and yet the neurophysiology still causes the alien frog to eat the alien fly.
In response one could put forth the following rebuttal. Even though naturalism unavoidably entails an SE-type problem--whether via semantic epiphenomenalism or semantic pseudo-epiphenomenalism--the fitness-enhancing neurophysiological properties that are most likely to be selected by natural selection (say that a certain neurophysiology is selectable just in case it’s likely to be selected by natural selection) happen to be those that are truth-conducive. The mad scientist scenario is contrived and produces certain belief-behavior pairs that are unlikely to obtain in real human physiology. The most selectable and efficient way for neurophysiology to produce advantageous behavior also produces true beliefs. Thus, even though the SE-type situation exists for semantics and behavior, luckily for us the physiological relation between semantics and behavior is such that true beliefs usually obtain.
All that may be true, but as an objection against the Probability Thesis it falls short. A major problem is that a favorable physiological relation between beliefs and behavior does not appear to be knowable from N&E alone. To illustrate, consider a slightly modified form of the alien scenario, where the neurophysiology of these creatures is quite literally alien to us and radically different from our own (though we don’t know much more about it). Given this, the mad scientist scenario, and the SE-like situation for beliefs and behavior, for all we know the most selectable and efficient fitness-enhancing alien neurophysiology available to natural selection has a physiological relation between beliefs and behavior that is wildly different from what human naturalists believes about themselves. So there are possible worlds where the most selectable alien neurophysiology is such that the fitness-enhancing neurophysiology produces mostly false beliefs as in the mad scientist scenario. Of course, there are also possible worlds where the most selectable alien neurophysiology produces mostly true beliefs. But there’s no way to determine on N&E alone which sort of neurophysiology is more selectable, in part because the alien neurophysiology is too mysterious and far too different from our own.
Moreover, if we were calculating the likelihood of RA on just N&E and thus without any (further?) background knowledge about what sorts of physiological relations between beliefs and behavior obtain in actual N&E worlds, we would have no reason to suppose Pr(RA|N&E) is high regardless of whether we assume semantic epiphenomenalism or semantic pseudo-epiphenomenalism. Indeed, in light of the mad scientist scenario the semantic beliefs of the aliens could (at least in the epistemic sense) be just about anything, and thus Pr(RA|N&E) is low or at best inscrutable. Similarly, Pr(R|N&E) is also low/inscrutable.
One could concede that the Pr(R|N&E) is low but also claim we know some proposition P (perhaps that the physiological relation between beliefs and behavior happens to be benevolent for our species) such that Pr(R|N&E&P) is high. On that note, consider first the case of drug XX. Drug XX is such that if one were to take it, there is a 95% chance that it will make one’s cognitive faculties unreliable within thirty minutes of taking it, though those so affected will be unable to detect their own reliability. The other 5% are immune to the drug’s effects thanks to a gene that blocks the effects of the drug. Suppose I mistakenly take the drug and neither you nor I have any beliefs as to whether I have the gene. It would appear that both of us have a defeater for my belief that my cognitive faculties are reliable. Suppose I later come to believe that a doctor called me saying that I have the gene that blocks the effects of the drug. Would you have a defeater-defeater for the belief that my cognitive faculties are reliable? It would appear not. The belief that the doctor did indeed call me relies on the very cognitive faculties (my own) that were defeated in the first place, and one cannot sensibly assume the truth of the defeatee to defeat the defeater.
In case you missed it, the claim that "evolved creatures having something appropriately called beliefs implies that the creatures have to possess favorable belief-behavioral relationship such that RA would be obtained" was attacked via the semantic epiphenomenalism/pseudo-epiphenomenalism disjunction, which was itself justified via the mad scientist scenario. You didn't address this sort of objection your latest post to me.
Defeater Thesis: low/inscrutable Pr(R|N&E) defeats R?
Quote: Originally Posted by afunugsamongusQuote: The problem with this tu qoque objection is that R is never really defeated in the first place, so the problem of epistemic circularity never arises (whereas if R really were defeated, it would indeed be problematic to assume the defeatee to defeat the defeater). Let D = "One or more deities exist" and let T = "the God of philosophical theism exists." I believe D because I believe in T, not the other way around. Also, with B as my background knowledge, the following inequality seems to hold:
Pr(R|T&B) ≥ Pr(R|B)
That is, a perfectly good, omnipotent, and omniscient God existing does not reduce the likelihood of R; if anything it increases it to the point where the existence of people with diseased and imperfect cognitive faculties (among other evils) counts as some evidence against T. So even if Pr(R|D&B) serves as a defeater for R, Pr(R|T&D&B) does not.
How do you justify T without presupposing R? Seems like you'd have to start with some kind of experience or inference that would be undermined by ~R... and why must A' be the reason I believe N&E? As long as P(N&E&A') is high, and P(R|N&E&A') is high, I don't see why I should worry about P(R|N&E). One perhaps does (directly or indirectly) presuppose R in coming up with an argument for T, but again the reason why this isn't epistemically circular is that R was never defeated in the first place. In contrast, EAAN claims N&E defeats R, and one can't just presuppose the defeatee to defeat the defeater.
Quote: Originally Posted by afunugsamongusQuote: Kind of the point is that if in this scenario you take drug XX and without knowing beforehand that you are immune to its effects, you're screwed because any argument you form after you take drug XX would have to rely on the very cognitive faculties that were defeated in the first place, and you can't just assume the defeatee to defeat the defeater.
I'm not assuming the defeatee if I start with R' which is properly basic and then build up to R. Yes and no. To go from R' to R you'd have to rely on your cognitive faculties whose reliability was defeated in the first place. This is pretty much a textbook case of pragmatic circularity.
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| afunugsamongus |
| Posted 11/21/11 at 02:36 AM | Reply with quote #572 |
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Probability Thesis: Pr(R|N&E) low/inscrutable?
Quote: As with semantic epiphenomenalism, the semantic content produced by the fitness-enhancing neurophysiological process doesn’t need to have anything to do with the environment. So even if we accept that syntax and semantics are the same thing, in a purely physical view of the mind the spirit of semantic epiphenomenalism remains: for any given behavior B, there are innumerably many semantic contents C—even C’s wildly unrelated to the external environment—that could be associated with B. One could argue that the relation between semantic content and behavior is in this way functionally equivalent to SE in spite of the falsity of SE. Call this view semantic pseudo-epiphenomenalism.
The mad scientist scenario suggests that given naturalism, if semantic epiphenomenalism is not true, then semantic pseudo-epiphenomenalism is, with both choices giving us SE-like behavior. Both semantic epiphenomenalism and semantic pseudo-epiphenomenalism permit a great divorce between beliefs and behavior (think of the third and final case in the mad scientist scenario). One reason for the SE-like behavior is this: if semantics and syntax were (perhaps per impossibile) the same property, it would be possible for an agent’s “semantics” to causally influence behavior in a very different way from how a rational agent would behave. It is of course quite natural for an adherent of the “semantics causes behavior” view to believe that it does so in a way that a rational agent would behave. Yet while semantics influencing behavior in a rational manner are possible, e.g. “I am hungry” causing the person to eat food, semantics causing behavior in an irrational manner is also possible. To illustrate, think of an alien frog whose neurophysiology is very different from an earth frog. In light of the mad scientist scenario, we can conceive of a neurophysiology that causes the alien frog to snap out its tongue to capture the alien fly while also causing the frog believe that “eating this fly will kill me and I don't want to die, therefore I should eat it.” We might say the alien frog is being irrational in its behavior, but natural selection does not select for rationality, it selects for advantageous behavior. We can even conceive of the alien frog having a semantic content that has nothing to do with the external environment, as in the third case of the mad scientist scenario, and yet the neurophysiology still causes the alien frog to eat the alien fly.
Why on Earth (or on any planet for that matter) would complicated belief faculties evolve with output "wildly unrelated to the external environment"? Epiphenomenal belief systems are strictly inferior to raw reflexes, costing more but performing the same. Presumably (given naturalism) all beliefs require some expenditure. Wouldn't we expect the biology responsible for semantics, if totally disconnected from behavior, to vanish over time? Your position here - that any and all semantic mistakes may coexist with ordinary adaptive behavior - is what I called (strong)SE. My old objection remains: this position implausibly denies that motivation towards an action depends on the belief that that action is good. This kind of SE is too strong to be plausible.
I should add that believing is a kind of behaving, and a belief's meaning is an excellent indicator of its adaptivity. We (normally) talk in terms of believing that God exists, believing that an action is good, believing that it's Tuesday, etc, rather than in terms of neurons, because the meanings are more important to our prosperity. Any kind of SE that allows this is too weak to defeat R.
So there are several naturalistically acceptable reasons to doubt that anything resembling SE could be strong enough to stop reliability from accruing evolutionary benefits, yet weak enough to be plausible.
Quote: In case you missed it, the claim that "evolved creatures having something appropriately called beliefs implies that the creatures have to possess favorable belief-behavioral relationship such that RA would be obtained" was attacked via the semantic epiphenomenalism/pseudo-epiphenomenalism disjunction, which was itself justified via the mad scientist scenario. You didn't address this sort of objection your latest post to me.
Your quotation makes a stronger claim than my original statement. I said that all belief faculties share some of our reasons for reliability, especially the need for responses to vary appropriately; I did not say that RA would be obtained. As a sidenote, I'm pretty sure it is improper to use quotation marks to paraphrase.
Your mad scientist scenario poses no special threat to naturalism since any resulting epiphenomenalism would undermine all subjective experience, including alternatives to naturalism. Your alien frog scenario shows that E&~R is physically possible, blocking physical implication (E=>R) while saying little about probability.
The SE/PE disjunction supposedly threatens naturalism because there are "innumerably many semantic contents" that could be associated with each behavior, and "there’s no way to determine on N&E alone which sort of neurophysiology is more selectable". Immediately theism falls prey to the tu quoque: there's no way to determine on [unrelated fact] alone which sort of neurophysiology is more probable; therefore [unrelated fact] defeats R; and any reference to God is blocked as a "just add P" argument. If you say N&E defeats R only because N&E implies a certain ontology for our belief faculties, then 'N&E' must include the full naturalistic story of how our faculties came about, including specific features of the environment determining which sort of neurophysiology is more selectable. Does that address your objection?
As a corollary, here's an argument that reliable faculties were more selectable for our ancestors: (1) our belief faculties evolved by incremental changes to reliable reflex/sense/memory systems, and (2) isolated false beliefs contradict rules of thumb.
The first condition means that our belief faculties were reliable from the start, and the second maintains selective force towards reliability.
Defeater Thesis: low/inscrutable Pr(R|N&E) defeats R?
Quote: One perhaps does (directly or indirectly) presuppose R in coming up with an argument for T, but again the reason why this isn't epistemically circular is that R was never defeated in the first place. In contrast, EAAN claims N&E defeats R, and one can't just presuppose the defeatee to defeat the defeater.
Who cares if part (N&E) of an ontology (N&E&A'&...) for our faculties fails when taken out of context? How is R ever defeated in the first place by N&E, if N&E was never offered as a standalone ontology for our faculties?
Quote: To go from R' to R you'd have to rely on your cognitive faculties whose reliability was defeated in the first place. This is pretty much a textbook case of pragmatic circularity.
Reliability is not a binary variable but a continuous one capable of degrees. If P(R|N&E) were low or inscrutable then it would be wise to moderate our self-confidence, but nothing circular is required to observe some confidence-boosting facts. Observations made at confidence level L1 change the confidence level to L2, and so on. It would be foolish to infer a supernatural guarantee of reliability from the fact that we cannot operate below a minimum level of self-confidence. |
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| Tisthammerw |
| Posted 11/28/11 at 11:42 AM | Reply with quote #573 |
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The Recap Symbolism recap: - R = Our cognitive faculties are reliable
- N = Naturalism is true (the supernatural does not exist; only the natural realm is real)
- SE = Semantic epiphenomenalism (defined in post #1) is true.
- RA = the cognitive faculties of the aliens (mentioned in post #1) are reliable.
- RC = the cognitive faculties of Clint (mentioned in post #1) are reliable
- R' = we have baseline cognitive ability (the sort where a person not having R' implies that individual having no beliefs at all, based on what was said in post #172).
- RA' = the aliens in the Alien Scenario have R'-type cognitive ability.
- A' = Despite SE being true, reliable cognitive faculties are adaptive (in that e.g. they are associated with neurophysiological properties that produce fitness-enhancing behavior).
Recap of the "main" argument: - If Pr(R|N&E) is low or inscrutable, then N&E serves as a defeater for R.
- Pr(R|N&E) is low or inscrutable.
- Therefore, N&E serves as a defeater for R.
Premise (1) is the Defeater Thesis and premise (2) is the Probability Thesis. Categorization of sub-arguments (see for post #1 more on this):
(1.1) If RC is defeated in the Clint Scenario, then RA is defeated in the Alien Scenario. (1.2) If RA is defeated in the Alien Scenario, then R is defeated in the Probability Thesis scenario. (1.3) RC is defeated in the Clint Scenario. (1.4) Therefore, R is defeated in the Probability Thesis scenario.
The Post
Probability Thesis: Pr(R|N&E) low/inscrutable?
Quote: Originally Posted by afunugsamongus Why on Earth (or on any planet for that matter) would complicated belief faculties evolve with output "wildly unrelated to the external environment"? I kind of answered this question in your previous post to me. I'll quote the relevant portion for your convenience:
Quote: Originally Posted by Tisthammerw n response one could put forth the following rebuttal. Even though naturalism unavoidably entails an SE-type problem--whether via semantic epiphenomenalism or semantic pseudo-epiphenomenalism--the fitness-enhancing neurophysiological properties that are most likely to be selected by natural selection (say that a certain neurophysiology is selectable just in case it’s likely to be selected by natural selection) happen to be those that are truth-conducive. The mad scientist scenario is contrived and produces certain belief-behavior pairs that are unlikely to obtain in real human physiology. The most selectable and efficient way for neurophysiology to produce advantageous behavior also produces true beliefs. Thus, even though the SE-type situation exists for semantics and behavior, luckily for us the physiological relation between semantics and behavior is such that true beliefs usually obtain.
All that may be true, but as an objection against the Probability Thesis it falls short. A major problem is that a favorable physiological relation between beliefs and behavior does not appear to be knowable from N&E alone. To illustrate, consider a slightly modified form of the alien scenario, where the neurophysiology of these creatures is quite literally alien to us and radically different from our own (though we don’t know much more about it). Given this, the mad scientist scenario, and the SE-like situation for beliefs and behavior, for all we know the most selectable and efficient fitness-enhancing alien neurophysiology available to natural selection has a physiological relation between beliefs and behavior that is wildly different from what human naturalists believes about themselves. So there are possible worlds where the most selectable alien neurophysiology is such that the fitness-enhancing neurophysiology produces mostly false beliefs as in the mad scientist scenario. Of course, there are also possible worlds where the most selectable alien neurophysiology produces mostly true beliefs. But there’s no way to determine on N&E alone which sort of neurophysiology is more selectable, in part because the alien neurophysiology is too mysterious and far too different from our own. The answer, in short, is that perhaps the most selectable neurophysiology is of the sort that yields mostly false beliefs, and even if Earth primate physiology isn't of that sort of neurophysiology, there is no way to determine that from N&E alone.
Quote: Originally Posted by afunugsamongusQuote: In case you missed it, the claim that "evolved creatures having something appropriately called beliefs implies that the creatures have to possess favorable belief-behavioral relationship such that RA would be obtained" was attacked via the semantic epiphenomenalism/pseudo-epiphenomenalism disjunction, which was itself justified via the mad scientist scenario. You didn't address this sort of objection your latest post to me.
Your quotation makes a stronger claim than my original statement. I said that all belief faculties share some of our reasons for reliability, especially the need for responses to vary appropriately; I did not say that RA would be obtained. As a sidenote, I'm pretty sure it is improper to use quotation marks to paraphrase. I apologize for that, but I wasn't actually paraphrasing (or quoting) you; I just needed some way to encapsulate a particular claim, and quotation marks for good or ill are a common mechanism to do just that even when the encapsulated claim isn't spoken by anybody in particular (which as this instance demonstrates, can cause some confusion). In any case, the quote I was responding to is this: Quote: Originally Posted by afunugsamongus Anything appropriately called "belief" has to be similar enough to human belief to share some of our evolutionary reasons for reliability. Any system that evolves representation faculties must be faithful enough so that its responses vary according to relevant features of the environment. I had interpreted this to mean that anything appropriately called "belief" has to be similar enough to human belief must faithfully represent the actual world to some reliable degree. If it meant something far weaker, e.g. that it must share some of our evolutionary reasons for reliability in such a way that does not imply actual reliability of cognitive faculties, then I'm not sure how much relevance this has to the problem; are you denying semantic pseudo-epiphenomenalism here?
Quote: Originally Posted by afunugsamongus Your mad scientist scenario poses no special threat to naturalism since any resulting epiphenomenalism would undermine all subjective experience, including alternatives to naturalism. Your alien frog scenario shows that E&~R is physically possible, blocking physical implication (E=>R) while saying little about probability....If you say N&E defeats R only because N&E implies a certain ontology for our belief faculties, then 'N&E' must include the full naturalistic story of how our faculties came about, including specific features of the environment determining which sort of neurophysiology is more selectable. Does that address your objection? No and yes. Naturalism as I'm using it is defined as "the doctrine that the supernatural does not exist." Evolution is being defined as (to borrow from one dictionary) something like the "theory that the various types of animals and plants have their origin in other preexisting types and that the distinguishable differences are due to modifications in successive generations" to which we can add the mechanism of natural selection operating on genetic variation. Defined this way, it seems there's no way to determine on N&E alone whether a favorable belief-behavior neurophysiology is more selectable than one that delivers mostly false beliefs, as in the mad scientist scenario. If you insist that we must add further information, something like (note that the following employs the encapsulation usage of quotation marks), "specific information about the physiological relation between belief and behavior that actually obtains for Earth primates, including such information that provides evidence for R" then you're really raising the "just add P" objection. One could concede that the Pr(R|N&E) is low but also claim we know some proposition P such that Pr(R|N&E&P) is high, but the problem with this objection (in this context) is that it just does not attack the Probability Thesis. So in that sense, you didn't quite address my objection here; the point of the mad scientist scenario and semantic pseudo-epiphenomenalism was to support the Probability Thesis rather than the Defeater Thesis.
Or perhaps your actual objection is something like this: you think my definition of evolution is inadequate and you believe the real and correct definition of evolution includes otherwise extraneous details to the theory such as the specifics of belief-behavior physiological relations. But definition disputes like this just aren't productive because they don't really attack the substance of the argument. If the use of the term "evolution" is offensive we can simply choose another label, perhaps let E represent "austere evolution" and define austere evolution as something like the "theory that the various types of animals and plants have their origin in other preexisting types and that the distinguishable differences are due to modifications in successive generations" to which we can add the mechanism of natural selection operating on genetic variation. We then note that the naturalist accepts N&E, that Pr(R|N&E) is low or inscrutable, and on we go to get more or less the exact same argument, with the substance of the argument still not really being addressed by the definition-dispute objection.
So for the most part the Probability Thesis hasn't quite been attacked here. Rather, most of your attacks seem to be on the Defeater Thesis.
Tu Quoque Objection
Quote: Originally Posted by afunugsamongus The SE/PE disjunction supposedly threatens naturalism because there are "innumerably many semantic contents" that could be associated with each behavior, and "there’s no way to determine on N&E alone which sort of neurophysiology is more selectable". Immediately theism falls prey to the tu quoque: there's no way to determine on [unrelated fact] alone which sort of neurophysiology is more probable; therefore [unrelated fact] defeats R; and any reference to God is blocked as a "just add P" argument. It's hard to see how theism falls prey to the tu quoque argument. Watch what happens when we put theism in place of N&E: there's no way to determine on theism alone which sort of neurophysiology is more probable; therefore theism defeats R; and any reference to God is blocked as a "just add P" argument. But clearly any reference to God is not blocked as a "just add P" argument because theism is the hypothesis that God exists.
Or perhaps your actual objection isn't a tu quoque argument against theism but rather something like the perspiration objection, which goes something like this: "The likelihood that our cognitive faculties are reliable given perspiration is low or inscrutable, therefore perspiration is a defeater for R," and perhaps you're saying that the theist couldn't appeal to theism to defeat the defeater because it's merely a "just add P" objection. A big disanalogy here is that N&E isn't presented as an unrelated fact; naturalistic evolution (if true) is responsible for the development of our cognitive faculties. Regarding this objection, Plantinga says:
Quote: She apparently presupposes that (or apparently presupposes that my argument presupposes that) (5) For any propositions A and B I believe, if B is improbable or inscrutable with respect to A (i.e., the right attitude towards the question of its probability with respect to A is agnosticism) then A is a defeater for B.
(5), however, is false, which ill befits a principle. The problem is that Plantinga isn't using this principle at all. The justification for the Defeater Thesis comes from analogies, like the Clint Scenario and the Alien Scenario. The proponent of EAAN wouldn't necessarily agree with the reasoning present in "there's no way to determine on [unrelated fact] alone which sort of neurophysiology is more probable; therefore [unrelated fact] defeats R."
Defeater Thesis: low/inscrutable Pr(R|N&E) defeats R?
Quote: Originally Posted by afunugsamongus As a corollary, here's an argument that reliable faculties were more selectable for our ancestors:
(1) our belief faculties evolved by incremental changes to reliable reflex/sense/memory systems, and (2) isolated false beliefs contradict rules of thumb.
The first condition means that our belief faculties were reliable from the start, and the second maintains selective force towards reliability. You had this in the "Probability Thesis" portion but really it's an attack against the Defeater Thesis. My objection to this argument is that it is pragmatically circular and falls prey to the problems I pointed out earlier in my rebuttal to the "just add P" approach.
Quote: Originally Posted by afunugsamongusQuote: One perhaps does (directly or indirectly) presuppose R in coming up with an argument for T, but again the reason why this isn't epistemically circular is that R was never defeated in the first place. In contrast, EAAN claims N&E defeats R, and one can't just presuppose the defeatee to defeat the defeater.
Who cares if part (N&E) of an ontology (N&E&A'&...) for our faculties fails when taken out of context? How is R ever defeated in the first place by N&E, if N&E was never offered as a standalone ontology for our faculties? Because it seems that additional information about the specifics of our development falls prey to the "just add P" troubles I alluded to earlier (confer the case of drug XX).
Quote: Originally Posted by afunugsamongusQuote: To go from R' to R you'd have to rely on your cognitive faculties whose reliability was defeated in the first place. This is pretty much a textbook case of pragmatic circularity. Reliability is not a binary variable but a continuous one capable of degrees. If P(R|N&E) were low or inscrutable then it would be wise to moderate our self-confidence, but nothing circular is required to observe some confidence-boosting facts. Observations made at confidence level L1 change the confidence level to L2, and so on. It would be foolish to infer a supernatural guarantee of reliability from the fact that we cannot operate below a minimum level of self-confidence. EAAN doesn't entail a supernatural guarantee of reliability. In any case, I don't think your valiant attempt works to move from R' to R (if that is your intent). Consider again the case of drug XX. Drug XX is such that if one were to take it, there is a 95% chance that it will make one’s cognitive faculties unreliable within thirty minutes of taking it, though those so affected will be unable to detect their own reliability. The other 5% are immune to the drug’s effects thanks to a gene that blocks the effects of the drug. Suppose I mistakenly take the drug and neither you nor I have any beliefs as to whether I have the gene. It would appear that both of us have a defeater for my belief that my cognitive faculties are reliable. Suppose I later come to believe that a doctor called me saying that I have the gene that blocks the effects of the drug. Would you have a defeater-defeater for the belief that my cognitive faculties are reliable? It would appear not. The belief that the doctor did indeed call me relies on the very cognitive faculties (my own) that were defeated in the first place.
Suppose later on you learn that I believe that I have verified my reliability through numerous checks, moving from L1 to L2, and so forth, to come to the logical conclusion that my cognitive faculties are reliable. However, you have no (further?) corroborating evidence that my beliefs here are true. Would you have a defeater-defeater for the reliability of my cognitive faculties? It would appear not; my belief is using the very cognitive faculties that were defeated in the first place. The problem of pragmatic circularity remains.
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| afunugsamongus |
| Posted 11/29/11 at 02:30 AM | Reply with quote #574 |
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Probability Thesis: Pr(R|N&E) low/inscrutable?
Quote: Originally Posted by Tisthammerw The answer, in short, is that perhaps the most selectable neurophysiology is of the sort that yields mostly false beliefs, and even if Earth primate physiology isn't of that sort of neurophysiology, there is no way to determine that from N&E alone.
That doesn't answer my supporting argument:
Quote: Originally Posted by afungus Epiphenomenal belief systems are strictly inferior to raw reflexes, costing more but performing the same. Presumably (given naturalism) all beliefs require some expenditure. Wouldn't we expect the biology responsible for semantics, if totally disconnected from behavior, to vanish over time? Your position here - that any and all semantic mistakes may coexist with ordinary adaptive behavior - is what I called (strong)SE. My old objection remains: this position implausibly denies that motivation towards an action depends on the belief that that action is good. This kind of SE is too strong to be plausible.
I should add that believing is a kind of behaving, and a belief's meaning is an excellent indicator of its adaptivity. We (normally) talk in terms of believing that God exists, believing that an action is good, believing that it's Tuesday, etc, rather than in terms of neurons, because the meanings are more important to our prosperity. Any kind of SE that allows this is too weak to defeat R.
So there are several naturalistically acceptable reasons to doubt that anything resembling SE could be strong enough to stop reliability from accruing evolutionary benefits, yet weak enough to be plausible.
Quote: Originally Posted by Tist I had interpreted this to mean that anything appropriately called "belief" has to be similar enough to human belief must faithfully represent the actual world to some reliable degree. If it meant something far weaker, e.g. that it must share some of our evolutionary reasons for reliability in such a way that does not imply actual reliability of cognitive faculties, then I'm not sure how much relevance this has to the problem; are you denying semantic pseudo-epiphenomenalism here?
If a faculty (whose reliability is RA) evolved for belief, this fact warrants RA but does not imply RA. Warrant is all I need.
Quote: So for the most part the Probability Thesis hasn't quite been attacked here. Rather, most of your attacks seem to be on the Defeater Thesis.
I'm saying that in order to secure the Defeater Thesis, you have to undermine the Probability Thesis, and vice-versa. To recap, either: -N&E is a full evolutionary story of our belief faculties, so P(R|N&E) is high; or else -N&E is not a full evolutionary story of our belief faculties, so low/inscrutable P(R|N&E) doesn't defeat R.
Tu Quoque Objection
Quote: Quote: theism falls prey to the tu quoque: there's no way to determine on [unrelated fact] alone which sort of neurophysiology is more probable; therefore [unrelated fact] defeats R; and any reference to God is blocked as a "just add P" argument. It's hard to see how theism falls prey to the tu quoque argument.
I am not referring to "The (earlier) Tu Quoque Argument" but rather the tu quoque argument immediately following the ":" punctuation. I've been using the term tu quoque to mean that an argument backfires on its maker, not referring to any specific such argument.
Quote: A big disanalogy here is that N&E isn't presented as an unrelated fact; naturalistic evolution (if true) is responsible for the development of our cognitive faculties.
[...]
The problem is that Plantinga isn't using this principle at all. The justification for the Defeater Thesis comes from analogies, like the Clint Scenario and the Alien Scenario. The proponent of EAAN wouldn't necessarily agree with the reasoning present in "there's no way to determine on [unrelated fact] alone which sort of neurophysiology is more probable; therefore [unrelated fact] defeats R."
R is undefeated in the analogy scenarios too. Either: -N&E is a full story of their belief faculties, so P(RA|N&E) may be high; or else -N&E is not a full story of their belief faculties, so low/inscrutable P(RA|N&E) doesn't defeat RA.
Similarly we may believe that Clint diluted the poison, and this would prevent our seeing Clint drink poison from defeating RC.
Additionally, as I've argued, the meaning of 'reliability' doesn't survive the change of perspective from the alien scenario into the PT.
Defeater Thesis: low/inscrutable Pr(R|N&E) defeats R?
Quote: Quote: Originally Posted by afunugsamongus As a corollary, here's an argument that reliable faculties were more selectable for our ancestors:
(1) our belief faculties evolved by incremental changes to reliable reflex/sense/memory systems, and (2) isolated false beliefs contradict rules of thumb.
The first condition means that our belief faculties were reliable from the start, and the second maintains selective force towards reliability. You had this in the "Probability Thesis" portion but really it's an attack against the Defeater Thesis. My objection to this argument is that it is pragmatically circular and falls prey to the problems I pointed out earlier in my rebuttal to the "just add P" approach.
This belongs neither here nor there because it is an argument for the first branch of my PT/DT dichotomy: if N&E is a full evolutionary story of our belief faculties then P(R|N&E) is high. The "just add P" argument presupposes a defeater, so it misses the mark.
Quote: In any case, I don't think your valiant attempt works to move from R' to R (if that is your intent). Consider again the case of drug XX. Drug XX is such that if one were to take it, there is a 95% chance that it will make one’s cognitive faculties unreliable within thirty minutes of taking it, though those so affected will be unable to detect their own reliability. The other 5% are immune to the drug’s effects thanks to a gene that blocks the effects of the drug. Suppose I mistakenly take the drug and neither you nor I have any beliefs as to whether I have the gene. It would appear that both of us have a defeater for my belief that my cognitive faculties are reliable. Suppose I later come to believe that a doctor called me saying that I have the gene that blocks the effects of the drug. Would you have a defeater-defeater for the belief that my cognitive faculties are reliable? It would appear not. The belief that the doctor did indeed call me relies on the very cognitive faculties (my own) that were defeated in the first place.
Suppose later on you learn that I believe that I have verified my reliability through numerous checks, moving from L1 to L2, and so forth, to come to the logical conclusion that my cognitive faculties are reliable. However, you have no (further?) corroborating evidence that my beliefs here are true. Would you have a defeater-defeater for the reliability of my cognitive faculties? It would appear not; my belief is using the very cognitive faculties that were defeated in the first place. The problem of pragmatic circularity remains.
This kind of analogy breaks down for the reasons that I urged against the alien scenario: the sense of 'reliability' is much different between 1st and (2nd or 3rd) person perspective. Always "reliability" is measured against the measurer's own conception of reality; the possibility of being externally, objectively wrong is uninteresting because it could happen in so many contradictory ways that morally speaking we can neglect it. The idea that others are wrong in a sense external to themselves is fathomable to us each because our own reality serves as measuring device.
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| Tisthammerw |
| Posted 12/01/11 at 11:26 PM | Reply with quote #575 |
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The Recap Symbolism recap: - R = Our cognitive faculties are reliable
- N = Naturalism is true (the supernatural does not exist; only the natural realm is real)
- SE = Semantic epiphenomenalism (defined in post #1) is true.
- RA = the cognitive faculties of the aliens (mentioned in post #1) are reliable.
- RC = the cognitive faculties of Clint (mentioned in post #1) are reliable
- R' = we have baseline cognitive ability (the sort where a person not having R' implies that individual having no beliefs at all, based on what was said in post #172).
- RA' = the aliens in the Alien Scenario have R'-type cognitive ability.
- A' = Despite SE being true, reliable cognitive faculties are adaptive (in that e.g. they are associated with neurophysiological properties that produce fitness-enhancing behavior).
Recap of the "main" argument: - If Pr(R|N&E) is low or inscrutable, then N&E serves as a defeater for R.
- Pr(R|N&E) is low or inscrutable.
- Therefore, N&E serves as a defeater for R.
Premise (1) is the Defeater Thesis and premise (2) is the Probability Thesis. Categorization of sub-arguments (see for post #1 more on this):
(1.1) If RC is defeated in the Clint Scenario, then RA is defeated in the Alien Scenario. (1.2) If RA is defeated in the Alien Scenario, then R is defeated in the Probability Thesis scenario. (1.3) RC is defeated in the Clint Scenario. (1.4) Therefore, R is defeated in the Probability Thesis scenario.
The Post
Probability Thesis: Pr(R|N&E) low/inscrutable?
Quote: Originally Posted by afunugsamongusQuote: Originally Posted by Tisthammerw The answer, in short, is that perhaps the most selectable neurophysiology is of the sort that yields mostly false beliefs, and even if Earth primate physiology isn't of that sort of neurophysiology, there is no way to determine that from N&E alone. That doesn't answer my supporting argument: Quote: Originally Posted by afungus Epiphenomenal belief systems are strictly inferior to raw reflexes, costing more but performing the same. Presumably (given naturalism) all beliefs require some expenditure. Wouldn't we expect the biology responsible for semantics, if totally disconnected from behavior, to vanish over time? Your position here - that any and all semantic mistakes may coexist with ordinary adaptive behavior - is what I called (strong)SE. My old objection remains: this position implausibly denies that motivation towards an action depends on the belief that that action is good. This kind of SE is too strong to be plausible.
I should add that believing is a kind of behaving, and a belief's meaning is an excellent indicator of its adaptivity. We (normally) talk in terms of believing that God exists, believing that an action is good, believing that it's Tuesday, etc, rather than in terms of neurons, because the meanings are more important to our prosperity. Any kind of SE that allows this is too weak to defeat R.
So there are several naturalistically acceptable reasons to doubt that anything resembling SE could be strong enough to stop reliability from accruing evolutionary benefits, yet weak enough to be plausible. True, in hindsight I did not address it as directly as I should have and I apologize for that. Let's start with this:
Quote: Originally Posted by afunugsamongus Epiphenomenal belief systems are strictly inferior to raw reflexes, costing more but performing the same. Presumably (given naturalism) all beliefs require some expenditure. Wouldn't we expect the biology responsible for semantics, if totally disconnected from behavior, to vanish over time? Not necessarily. It might be that semantic content is a useless but nearly unavoidable byproduct of sufficiently complex behaviors (e.g. an animal seeing a predator and running a way) caused by sufficiently complex brain activity for at least some types of behavior. Bare reflexive behavior that required little if any brain activity to function wouldn't necessarily fit the bill. Excrement and urine is emitted by the body and has little survival value to an organism in many cases (in that the organism doesn't have much use for it after it's emitted), but nonetheless it is in many cases a nearly unavoidable byproduct of the organism's health. Under naturalism something similar could be said for various brain activities; the semantic content is a useless but nearly unavoidable byproduct of brain activity in certain cases.
Quote: Originally Posted by afunugsamongus Your position here - that any and all semantic mistakes may coexist with ordinary adaptive behavior - is what I called (strong)SE. My old objection remains: this position implausibly denies that motivation towards an action depends on the belief that that action is good. This part I kind of already addressed. Certainly one could conceive in ways where semantics influences behavior in a way that a rational agent would behave, but one can also conceive of an agent's belief-behavior relationship to be "irrational" in that the relationship is like the third case of the mad scientist scenario. There's no way to determine on N&E alone which sort of relationship obtains.
Quote: Originally Posted by afunugsamongus I should add that believing is a kind of behaving, and a belief's meaning is an excellent indicator of its adaptivity. We (normally) talk in terms of believing that God exists, believing that an action is good, believing that it's Tuesday, etc, rather than in terms of neurons, because the meanings are more important to our prosperity. Any kind of SE that allows this is too weak to defeat R. I do not entirely agree, because even though SE (and even SPE, semantic psuedo-epiphenomenalism) allows meanings of beliefs to be excellent indicators of adaptivity to obtain in certain conceivable cases, SE doesn't necessarily make this sort of thing likely to occur. If I believed aliens evolved beliefs in such a way that their semantic beliefs could (in a certain sense) be literally anything without affecting their behavior, I would be rather pessimistic about how rational their belief-behavior relationship is.
Quote: Originally Posted by afunugsamongusQuote: Originally Posted by Tist I had interpreted this to mean that anything appropriately called "belief" has to be similar enough to human belief must faithfully represent the actual world to some reliable degree. If it meant something far weaker, e.g. that it must share some of our evolutionary reasons for reliability in such a way that does not imply actual reliability of cognitive faculties, then I'm not sure how much relevance this has to the problem; are you denying semantic pseudo-epiphenomenalism here? If a faculty (whose reliability is RA) evolved for belief, this fact warrants RA but does not imply RA. OK, so if I'm interpreting you correctly you are saying/implying that anything appropriately called "belief" has to be similar enough to human belief must make it likely that the cognitive faculties are reliable But I think given the illustration of the mad scientist scenario and the truth of semantic pseudo-epiphenomenalism, Pr(RA|N&E) is at best inscrutable because there's (at best) no way to determine on N&E alone which sort of neurophysiology is more selectable.
Quote: Originally Posted by afunugsamongusQuote: So for the most part the Probability Thesis hasn't quite been attacked here. Rather, most of your attacks seem to be on the Defeater Thesis. I'm saying that in order to secure the Defeater Thesis, you have to undermine the Probability Thesis, and vice-versa. To recap, either: -N&E is a full evolutionary story of our belief faculties, so P(R|N&E) is high; or else -N&E is not a full evolutionary story of our belief faculties, so low/inscrutable P(R|N&E) doesn't defeat R. If your "full evolutionary story of our belief faculties" is such that it would include "a sufficiently favorable physiological relation between beliefs and behavior holds for all Earth primate species" then no it does not include the full evolutionary story, in which case it appears you're not disputing the Probability Thesis but rather the Defeater Thesis (the notion that Pr(R|N&E) being low/inscrutable defeats R).
Tu Quoque Objection
Quote: Originally Posted by afunugsamongusQuote: Quote: theism falls prey to the tu quoque: there's no way to determine on [unrelated fact] alone which sort of neurophysiology is more probable; therefore [unrelated fact] defeats R; and any reference to God is blocked as a "just add P" argument. It's hard to see how theism falls prey to the tu quoque argument.
I am not referring to "The (earlier) Tu Quoque Argument" but rather the tu quoque argument immediately following the ":" punctuation. I've been using the term tu quoque to mean that an argument backfires on its maker, not referring to any specific such argument. OK, I wasn't aware that the argument immediately following the colon, i.e. "there's no way to determine on [unrelated fact] alone which sort of neurophysiology is more probable; therefore [unrelated fact] defeats R..." was meant to be a different tu quoque objection. In any case, my rebuttal regarding the perspiration objection would seem to (at least some degree) apply; you can't just plug in an arbitrary unrelated fact into the "...[unrelated fact]..." sentence and expect to have a defeater for R. Nor does Plantinga ever rely on such a principle.
Quote: Originally Posted by afunugsamongusQuote: A big disanalogy here is that N&E isn't presented as an unrelated fact; naturalistic evolution (if true) is responsible for the development of our cognitive faculties.
[...]
The problem is that Plantinga isn't using this principle at all. The justification for the Defeater Thesis comes from analogies, like the Clint Scenario and the Alien Scenario. The proponent of EAAN wouldn't necessarily agree with the reasoning present in "there's no way to determine on [unrelated fact] alone which sort of neurophysiology is more probable; therefore [unrelated fact] defeats R."
R is undefeated in the analogy scenarios too. Either: -N&E is a full story of their belief faculties, so P(RA|N&E) may be high; or else -N&E is not a full story of their belief faculties, so low/inscrutable P(RA|N&E) doesn't defeat RA.
Similarly we may believe that Clint diluted the poison, and this would prevent our seeing Clint drink poison from defeating RC. Er, there wasn't any poison, but perhaps you're referring to the unspecified tragic event that has destroyed the reliability of his cognitive faculties. In any case, it is true that if we modify the scenario in certain ways (e.g. that Clint's cognitive faculties were never made unreliable) our belief in RC/RA may not be defeated, but that does nothing to show that RA/RC aren't defeated in the actual, original scenarios. In the actual scenario we know that Clint's cognitive faculties have indeed been made unreliable. We also know that there is a machine that can rebuild his cognitive faculties such that they function in a reliable fashion if the machine is set on setting #1. The technicians use the machine to help poor Clint. I naturally assume that the technicians use trusty setting #1, and I therefore believe that RC is true. Then to my dismay I learn that they accidentally used the not-so-trusty setting #2. If the machine using setting #2 makes the probability of RC low or inscrutable, and I have no further relevant information, I have a defeater for my belief that RC is true.
Consider again the actual Alien Scenario. In this scenario I have no further detailed knowledge of the evolutionary development of their cognitive faculties, but I do know that N&E is true with respect to them and I know that Pr(RA|N&E) being low/inscrutable is true with respect to them. I have no further relevant knowledge available to me (beyond optimism, my only reasons for believing RA rely on RA being true, e.g. I know there is at least one alien that believes there is a huge pile of evidence for his cognitive faculties being reliable). It would seem then in this case I would have a defeater for my initial presumption that RA is true.
You could say the Alien Scenario is not relevantly similar to our own to establish the Defeater Thesis, but I think it's hard to successfully avoid pragmatic circularity once you grant the Probability Thesis. With that, let's move on to discuss the Defeater Thesis.
Defeater Thesis: low/inscrutable Pr(R|N&E) defeats R?
Quote: Originally Posted by afunugsamongusQuote: In any case, I don't think your valiant attempt works to move from R' to R (if that is your intent). Consider again the case of drug XX. Drug XX is such that if one were to take it, there is a 95% chance that it will make one’s cognitive faculties unreliable within thirty minutes of taking it, though those so affected will be unable to detect their own reliability. The other 5% are immune to the drug’s effects thanks to a gene that blocks the effects of the drug. Suppose I mistakenly take the drug and neither you nor I have any beliefs as to whether I have the gene. It would appear that both of us have a defeater for my belief that my cognitive faculties are reliable. Suppose I later come to believe that a doctor called me saying that I have the gene that blocks the effects of the drug. Would you have a defeater-defeater for the belief that my cognitive faculties are reliable? It would appear not. The belief that the doctor did indeed call me relies on the very cognitive faculties (my own) that were defeated in the first place.
Suppose later on you learn that I believe that I have verified my reliability through numerous checks, moving from L1 to L2, and so forth, to come to the logical conclusion that my cognitive faculties are reliable. However, you have no (further?) corroborating evidence that my beliefs here are true. Would you have a defeater-defeater for the reliability of my cognitive faculties? It would appear not; my belief is using the very cognitive faculties that were defeated in the first place. The problem of pragmatic circularity remains. This kind of analogy breaks down for the reasons that I urged against the alien scenario: the sense of 'reliability' is much different between 1st and (2nd or 3rd) person perspective. Always "reliability" is measured against the measurer's own conception of reality; the possibility of being externally, objectively wrong is uninteresting because it could happen in so many contradictory ways that morally speaking we can neglect it. Whether the substantial bulk of our beliefs about matters of objective truth are indeed objectively true is very important to EAAN however. Now it's true that in practice I judge that a person's beliefs are e.g. incorrect if they conflict with what I confidently believe to be true, but that's irrelevant to the issue EAAN is discussing because it's concerned with whether the substantial bulk of our beliefs really do correspond with reality.
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| afunugsamongus |
| Posted 12/13/11 at 01:44 AM | Reply with quote #576 |
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Quote: In any case, it is true that if we modify the scenario in certain ways (e.g. that Clint's cognitive faculties were never made unreliable) our belief in RC/RA may not be defeated, but that does nothing to show that RA/RC aren't defeated in the actual, original scenarios. In the actual scenario we know that Clint's cognitive faculties have indeed been made unreliable.
How about a recap of my own:
In the CS, Clint's faculties are built by a machine with a low/insc. chance of RC (RC is defeated assuming the machine is all we know about his faculties). In the AS, our best data about their evolution indicates low/insc. chance of RA (RA is defeated assuming the evolution is all we know about their faculties). In the PT, the opposite is true: our evolution occurred in an environment favoring R (since N&E is not all we know, we don't care that this isn't provable on N&E alone; your "just add P" argument fails because it presupposes a defeater). Where's the defeater?
You highlight how any naturalistic argument for R seems to presuppose its conclusion, leaving us with low/insc. chance of R after rejecting all circular reasoning. Does this defeat R? If so then the tu quoque reply (that any theistic argument for R seems to presuppose R, leaving us with low/insc. chance of R after rejecting all circular reasoning) shows that naturalism doesn't lose any ground relative to its rivals. If not then what does defeat R, exactly?
Whatever you think defeats R, my pragmatic reply is that we have reasons to presuppose our own reliability to some degree, and that when our experiences fit together sufficiently well, the continuum between reliability and hallucination disappears. If this is the case then we're either right about most things, or wrong about almost everything. We neglect the latter case because it offers no practical advice, and arrive at R.
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| Tisthammerw |
| Posted 01/13/12 at 09:08 PM | Reply with quote #577 |
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Back from my break from the forum (if it's any consolation, your post is the first I've responded to in a month or so).
The Recap Symbolism recap: - R = Our cognitive faculties are reliable
- N = Naturalism is true (the supernatural does not exist; only the natural realm is real)
- SE = Semantic epiphenomenalism (defined in post #1) is true.
- RA = the cognitive faculties of the aliens (mentioned in post #1) are reliable.
- RC = the cognitive faculties of Clint (mentioned in post #1) are reliable
- R' = we have baseline cognitive ability (the sort where a person not having R' implies that individual having no beliefs at all, based on what was said in post #172).
- RA' = the aliens in the Alien Scenario have R'-type cognitive ability.
- A' = Despite SE being true, reliable cognitive faculties are adaptive (in that e.g. they are associated with neurophysiological properties that produce fitness-enhancing behavior).
Recap of the "main" argument: - If Pr(R|N&E) is low or inscrutable, then N&E serves as a defeater for R.
- Pr(R|N&E) is low or inscrutable.
- Therefore, N&E serves as a defeater for R.
Premise (1) is the Defeater Thesis and premise (2) is the Probability Thesis. Categorization of sub-arguments (see for post #1 more on this):
(1.1) If RC is defeated in the Clint Scenario, then RA is defeated in the Alien Scenario. (1.2) If RA is defeated in the Alien Scenario, then R is defeated in the Probability Thesis scenario. (1.3) RC is defeated in the Clint Scenario. (1.4) Therefore, R is defeated in the Probability Thesis scenario.
The Post The Defeater Thesis
Quote: Originally Posted by afunugsamongusQuote: In any case, it is true that if we modify the scenario in certain ways (e.g. that Clint's cognitive faculties were never made unreliable) our belief in RC/RA may not be defeated, but that does nothing to show that RA/RC aren't defeated in the actual, original scenarios. In the actual scenario we know that Clint's cognitive faculties have indeed been made unreliable. How about a recap of my own:
In the CS, Clint's faculties are built by a machine with a low/insc. chance of RC (RC is defeated assuming the machine is all we know about his faculties). In the AS, our best data about their evolution indicates low/insc. chance of RA (RA is defeated assuming the evolution is all we know about their faculties). In the PT, the opposite is true: our evolution occurred in an environment favoring R (since N&E is not all we know, we don't care that this isn't provable on N&E alone; your "just add P" argument fails because it presupposes a defeater). Where's the defeater? It's in the same place, because EAAN attacks our alleged knowledge of us being luck with respect to evolution giving us reliable cognitive faculties. As an analogy, suppose I take drug XX, but later come to believe that there is overwhelming evidence for the reliability of my cognitive faculties and that I therefore got lucky. The problem is that this "evidence" comes after drug XX has already affected my beliefs (if I am not immune). Similarly, all the "evidence" for us "knowing" that we got lucky with respect to EAAN is that it comes after evolution has already affected our beliefs. I don't see a relevant difference between the drug XX case and EAAN (a similar thing holds for the Alien Scenario, where one relies on the alien believing there is overwhelming evidence for RA being true).
Tu Quoque
Quote: Originally Posted by afunugsamongus You highlight how any naturalistic argument for R seems to presuppose its conclusion, leaving us with low/insc. chance of R after rejecting all circular reasoning. Does this defeat R? If so then the tu quoque reply (that any theistic argument for R seems to presuppose R, leaving us with low/insc. chance of R after rejecting all circular reasoning) shows that naturalism doesn't lose any ground relative to its rivals. If not then what does defeat R, exactly? I'm not sure. Perhaps it has something to do with how the beliefs originated, but I don't need to appeal to specific principles as long as the premises for the defeater thesis are true, and they seem to be. Also, since theism doesn't lower the probability of R, R was never defeated for the theist in the first place.
Quote: Originally Posted by afunugsamongus Whatever you think defeats R, my pragmatic reply is that we have reasons to presuppose our own reliability to some degree, and that when our experiences fit together sufficiently well, the continuum between reliability and hallucination disappears. Like the drug XX victim though, all our "reasons" appear to be tainted. Something similar holds true in the alien scenario. Consider this question: is the alien in the alien scenario justified in believing RA? Or would Pr(RA|N&E) being low defeat his belief in RA, just as ingesting drug XX defeats my belief in R? Remember, before he sees that Pr(RA|N&E) is low he believes he has excellent reasons for believing RA is true. If you think the alien is justified, consider the drug XX scenario where the man believes he has excellent reasons for thinking R is true for him until he remembers that all these reasons rely on memories that took place after he took drug XX.
Or maybe age has something to do with it. Do we agree that if I knowingly took drug XX at an unusually spirited 21st birthday party, I would have a defeater for R for me? If so, suppose my very first memories are ingesting drug XX as a three-year-old boy, knowing full well that it has a 95% chance of making my cognitive faculties unreliable. Would this defeat my belief in R? Now suppose for some reason the causes for cognitive unreliability via N&E for some odd reason don't affect us until we are three-years-old, close to where we have our first memories, but I also somehow know (being taught before N&E affect happened) that the probability that N&E would so negatively affect my cognitive faculties is 95%. I don't recall though whether I'd be among the lucky ones. Do I have a defeater for my belief that R is true for me?
Finally, suppose that Pr(R|N&E) is low, and if it renders our cognitive faculties unreliable it does so at least as far back as our first memories. Would this be a defeater for R?
I'm curious to know where you think this slippery slope ends. By my lights, it leads all the way to the bottom.
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| depthcharge623 |
| Posted 01/13/12 at 09:17 PM | Reply with quote #578 |
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| Is this thread ever going to end? Haha, too stubborn... |
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| Tisthammerw |
| Posted 01/13/12 at 09:21 PM | Reply with quote #579 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by depthcharge623 Is this thread ever going to end? Haha, too stubborn... Part of me hopes not; afunugsamongus has been one of my better and more intelligent online sparring partners. 
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| cutz22 |
| Posted 01/14/12 at 12:14 AM | Reply with quote #580 |
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| Yeah, this argument has to be one of the most epic on the whole forum. I usually tire of arguments after a just a few replies, but 39 pages and the EAAN keeps on truckin'! |
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| harvey1 |
| Posted 01/14/12 at 08:46 AM | Reply with quote #581 |
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| Well, personally I wouldn't read too much into the length of a thread especially if the content is not well understood. |
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| Tisthammerw |
| Posted 01/14/12 at 11:43 AM | Reply with quote #582 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by harvey1 Well, personally I wouldn't read too much into the length of a thread especially if the content is not well understood. If that's a problem, go ahead and read the first post. I've modified it to (more or less) keep up with relatively recent posts.
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| afunugsamongus |
| Posted 01/17/12 at 10:57 PM | Reply with quote #583 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by Tisthammerw Back from my break from the forum (if it's any consolation, your post is the first I've responded to in a month or so). Royal treatment! Whether or not we're approaching consensus, a debate in good faith and good manners has rewards of its own.
The Defeater Thesis
Quote: It's in the same place, because EAAN attacks our alleged knowledge of us being lucky with respect to evolution giving us reliable cognitive faculties. As an analogy, suppose I take drug XX, but later come to believe that there is overwhelming evidence for the reliability of my cognitive faculties and that I therefore got lucky. The problem is that this "evidence" comes after drug XX has already affected my beliefs (if I am not immune). Similarly, all the "evidence" for us "knowing" that we got lucky with respect to EAAN is that it comes after evolution has already affected our beliefs. I don't see a relevant difference between the drug XX case and EAAN (a similar thing holds for the Alien Scenario, where one relies on the alien believing there is overwhelming evidence for RA being true).
I'm still not seeing why N&E poses any threat whatsoever to R. It is one thing to take drug XX, and quite another to take drug ?? which has no known hallucinogenic effects. A proper analogue of drug XX would be if a large fraction of observed instances of evolved faculties were known to be unreliable; but this is not the case, and your skepticism about the naturalistic effects of reliability precludes this sort of argument. R is difficult to justify because it is so fundamental among our beliefs, but how does N&E make that problem harder to solve?
Tu Quoque
Quote: Also, since theism doesn't lower the probability of R, R was never defeated for the theist in the first place.
Then your work is cut out for you: show that N&E reduces the probability of R. It is not enough to show that P(R|N&E) is low or inscrutable; you must also argue that P(R) is relatively high from a standpoint agnostic about N&E. I reckon P(R) is utterly inscrutable without some ontology of our faculties. That's not good enough for you since "low or inscrutable" isn't less than "utterly inscrutable".
Quote: Like the drug XX victim though, all our "reasons" appear to be tainted. Something similar holds true in the alien scenario. Consider this question: is the alien in the alien scenario justified in believing RA? Or would Pr(RA|N&E) being low defeat his belief in RA, just as ingesting drug XX defeats my belief in R? Remember, before he sees that Pr(RA|N&E) is low he believes he has excellent reasons for believing RA is true. If you think the alien is justified, consider the drug XX scenario where the man believes he has excellent reasons for thinking R is true for him until he remembers that all these reasons rely on memories that took place after he took drug XX.
The alien is justified in believing in his own reliability for the same reasons that I'm justified in believing R, assuming he's in an analogous position. Namely, R is a reasonable presupposition or default position; sensory harmony creates a dichotomy between R and total unreliability (and therefore moral nihilism); and N&E doesn't defeat R.
Quote: Or maybe age has something to do with it. Do we agree that if I knowingly took drug XX at an unusually spirited 21st birthday party, I would have a defeater for R for me? If so, suppose my very first memories are ingesting drug XX as a three-year-old boy, knowing full well that it has a 95% chance of making my cognitive faculties unreliable. Would this defeat my belief in R? Now suppose for some reason the causes for cognitive unreliability via N&E for some odd reason don't affect us until we are three-years-old, close to where we have our first memories, but I also somehow know (being taught before N&E affect happened) that the probability that N&E would so negatively affect my cognitive faculties is 95%. I don't recall though whether I'd be among the lucky ones. Do I have a defeater for my belief that R is true for me?
Finally, suppose that Pr(R|N&E) is low, and if it renders our cognitive faculties unreliable it does so at least as far back as our first memories. Would this be a defeater for R?
I'm curious to know where you think this slippery slope ends. By my lights, it leads all the way to the bottom.
Drug XX defeats R, and N&E doesn't, no matter when they occur.
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| Tisthammerw |
| Posted 01/19/12 at 10:07 PM | Reply with quote #584 |
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Symbol recap:
- R = One's cognitive faculties are reliable.
- N = naturalism is true.
- E = evolution is true.
- Pr(R|N&E) = the probability that R is true given that N and E are both true.
The Defeater Thesis
Quote: Originally Posted by afunugsamongusQuote: It's in the same place, because EAAN attacks our alleged knowledge of us being lucky with respect to evolution giving us reliable cognitive faculties. As an analogy, suppose I take drug XX, but later come to believe that there is overwhelming evidence for the reliability of my cognitive faculties and that I therefore got lucky. The problem is that this "evidence" comes after drug XX has already affected my beliefs (if I am not immune). Similarly, all the "evidence" for us "knowing" that we got lucky with respect to EAAN is that it comes after evolution has already affected our beliefs. I don't see a relevant difference between the drug XX case and EAAN (a similar thing holds for the Alien Scenario, where one relies on the alien believing there is overwhelming evidence for RA being true). I'm still not seeing why N&E poses any threat whatsoever to R. It is one thing to take drug XX, and quite another to take drug ?? which has no known hallucinogenic effects. A proper analogue of drug XX would be if a large fraction of observed instances of evolved faculties were known to be unreliable; but this is not the case, and your skepticism about the naturalistic effects of reliability precludes this sort of argument. R is difficult to justify because it is so fundamental among our beliefs, but how does N&E make that problem harder to solve? The Probability Thesis of course; that and perhaps some apropos analogies (more on those later).
Quote: Originally Posted by afunugsamongusQuote: Or maybe age has something to do with it. Do we agree that if I knowingly took drug XX at an unusually spirited 21st birthday party, I would have a defeater for R for me? If so, suppose my very first memories are ingesting drug XX as a three-year-old boy, knowing full well that it has a 95% chance of making my cognitive faculties unreliable. Would this defeat my belief in R? Now suppose for some reason the causes for cognitive unreliability via N&E for some odd reason don't affect us until we are three-years-old, close to where we have our first memories, but I also somehow know (being taught before N&E affect happened) that the probability that N&E would so negatively affect my cognitive faculties is 95%. I don't recall though whether I'd be among the lucky ones. Do I have a defeater for my belief that R is true for me?
Finally, suppose that Pr(R|N&E) is low, and if it renders our cognitive faculties unreliable it does so at least as far back as our first memories. Would this be a defeater for R?
I'm curious to know where you think this slippery slope ends. By my lights, it leads all the way to the bottom.
Drug XX defeats R, and N&E doesn't, no matter when they occur. Why think that is true? By my lights, it's rather arbitrary to say that drug XX defeats R but N&E doesn't. To illustrate this better, suppose how N&E has a chance of rendering my cognitive faculties unreliable at age three is that an unfortunate mutation causes my body to naturally produce drug XX on my third birthday. It's pretty hard to see a relevant difference between this case and the case where I as a three-year-old manually ingest drug XX. In any case, how N&E renders my cognitive faculties unreliable seems rather irrelevant ceteris paribus (that it's global unreliability that manifests itself at age 3 etc.); if my cognitive faculties are unreliable then they are unreliable, regardless of whether their unreliability is brought about by mutation, normal genetic recombination, or the manual ingestion of a drug.
On that note, let's consider some scenarios.
Let Scenario S1 be the following: I as a three-year-old child knowingly ingest drug XX while also being fully aware of its effects (it having a high probability of rendering my cognitive faculties unreliable). Ingesting the drug and knowing of the drug's effects are my very first memories. Some years after the incident I come to believe I have taken an extensive battery of tests that establish my cognitive reliability, but since this belief came after the drug XX incident, I conclude that I have a defeater for my belief that my cognitive faculties of reliable.
Let Scenario S2 be the following: naturalistic evolution brought about a mutation that causes my body to naturally produce drug XX on my third birthday. Similar to S1, I know full well the consequences of the mutation and drug XX. Some years after the incident I come to believe I have taken an extensive battery of tests that establish my cognitive reliability, but since this belief came after the drug XX incident, I conclude that I have a defeater for my belief that my cognitive faculties of reliable.
Let Scenario S3 be the following: someone has injected me with drug XX as soon as I was born; those so injected have a high probability of the drug rendering their cognitive faculties unreliable, though those so afflicted are incapable of detecting their own cognitive unreliability. I'm at least as confident about the drug injection and the effects of such injections as I am about any other historical belief I have. Some years after the incident I come to believe I have taken an extensive battery of tests that establish my cognitive reliability, but since this belief came after the drug XX incident, I conclude that I have a defeater for my belief that my cognitive faculties of reliable.
Let Scenario S4 be the following: naturalistic evolution brought about a mutation that naturally produces and injects drug XX in my body as soon as I am born. I'm at least as confident about the drug injection and the effects of such injections as I am about any other historical belief I have. Some years after the incident I come to believe I have taken an extensive battery of tests that establish my cognitive reliability, but since this belief came after the drug XX incident, I conclude that I have a defeater for my belief that my cognitive faculties of reliable.
Let Scenario S5 be the following: the Probability Thesis is true and Pr(R|N&E) is low. Some years after I am born I come to believe I have taken an extensive battery of tests that establish my cognitive reliability, but since this belief came after N&E has already affected my cognitive faculties, I conclude that I have a defeater for my belief that my cognitive faculties of reliable.
So where do you think the slippery slope stops? I think the weakest link in the chain is scenario S3, but why wouldn't S3 work if S2 works? Perhaps because the drug XX ingestion occurs after I learn of its effects, not before. But is this enough? I think not. Suppose I learn of drug XX's effects one minute after I take it. Would this prevent drug XX from defeating R? Apparently not. How about one hour after I take it? Or a day? Or a month? Or a year? It seems that if R is defeated in S2 then it is defeated in S3, and it's difficult to find a relevant difference between S2 and S3. Or perhaps it's because I learn about having ingesting drug XX after the fact. This doesn't seem to work either. Suppose in my dazed state as a 21 year old I took drug XX without knowing it. Some time later though the suppressed memory resurfaces in a very vivid way, and I become as confident about this memory as I am with any other memory. My learning of it after the fact doesn't seem to prevent ingesting drug XX from defeating R.
Tu Quoque
Quote: Originally Posted by afunugsamongusQuote: Also, since theism doesn't lower the probability of R, R was never defeated for the theist in the first place. Then your work is cut out for you: show that N&E reduces the probability of R. It is not enough to show that P(R|N&E) is low or inscrutable; you must also argue that P(R) is relatively high from a standpoint agnostic about N&E. Well, it seems that if R is properly basic then it is justified and one would thus presumably award it with a respectably high epistemic probability.
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| afunugsamongus |
| Posted 01/20/12 at 02:27 AM | Reply with quote #585 |
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Tu Quoque
Quote: Originally Posted by TisthammerwQuote: Originally Posted by afunugsamongus Then your work is cut out for you: show that N&E reduces the probability of R. It is not enough to show that P(R|N&E) is low or inscrutable; you must also argue that P(R) is relatively high from a standpoint agnostic about N&E. Well, it seems that if R is properly basic then it is justified and one would thus presumably award it with a respectably high epistemic probability.
R is not properly basic since it is defeasible; and while R is a reasonable default assumption, that doesn't make P(R) high in the relevant sense. When evaluating P(R|N&E) you considered only what we could deduce from N&E, not what we could reasonably assume given our pragmatic needs. Applying the same criteria to P(R), it is inscrutable. So P(R|N&E) is not less than P(R).
Furthermore, if you're allowed to isolate N&E out from the evolutionary context that evidently determined our reliability, why not go a step further and consider P(R) given, say, atomic theory? The probability of R given that we're made of atoms seems low/inscrutable for the same reasons as P(R|N&E). If we have evidence for high P(R), though, it seems that ought to win. You cannot dismiss it from mere skepticism about R, because the 'drug' - N&E, atomic theory, etc. - also depends on R. It is as though we remember drinking a mixture, some subset of which would have functioned like drug XX had it been taken alone.
The Defeater Thesis
Quote: On that note, let's consider some scenarios. All five scenarios miss the essential distinction between low P(R) given drug XX, and "low or inscrutable" P(R) given N&E.
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