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Ricky247
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Posted 06/22/12 at 04:44 PM
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#1
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Hey guys, I've been studying Sociology recently and What makes someone attractive - evolutionarily speaking. Here are some thoughts and questions I wanted to share with you all.
1. What makes men attracted to woman, Visa Versa?
I'll be the first to say, there is a genetic predisposition to what we like in skin colors, and so forth based upon our race, (which I'll get into in a minute). But what about the basics?
I've read that basically that we are designed to go after mates that offer us survival or replication value. Guys want girls that are healthy that will be fertile so they can pass their genes on; girls want guys that can protect them and their children (who will stick around) once they mate.
But what does each like or dislike we have in the opposite sex mean?
Why would a guy like a girl who has Long shiny hair, big eyes, soft skin, tall - short, certain facial symmetries, small noses yet dislike large ones, smells and higher voices. WHAT IS EACH OF THESE ASPECTS LINKED TO?
Personality traits: Why do guys like girls who are: Kind, funny, polite and intelligent. Question on intelligence: I've read that the more intelligent a girl is the less likely she will be fertile - shouldn't it be the other way around? Since evolution favors intelligence. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fertility_and_intelligence
I don't want to make an extremely long post, so that's enough for now. I'll add more notes as the post goes along. Tell me what you guys think the answers are - thanks!
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JudeNebula
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Posted 06/22/12 at 04:56 PM
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#2
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Good questions. I'll answer them for you.
Basically all the traits you listed are signs of good health.
If you are are healthy, especially in the womb, and early childhood your face will have a natural symmetry. Lack of symmetry is a sign that something went wrong in your early development.
Things like waist-to-hip ratio, the classic hour glass figure is related to being able to give a good birth, something in our ancient history that was a very precarious endeavor.
Soft skin is a signal of youth, and women being around the ages of 17-24 being the most fertile and capable of bearing a child. This is how old women started having kids back in our hunter-gatherer days.
The pitch of the voice is related to testosterone/estrogen levels probably..
It all comes down to health, we find women who are the most attractive the ones that are the healthiest.
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vmancha
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Posted 06/22/12 at 04:56 PM
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#3
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We share over 25 percent of a bananas DNA. I guess we should want to mate with fruit. We should like yellow beings with peels. Of course this might have explanatory power in Jude's case
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mazzgolf
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Posted 06/22/12 at 05:16 PM
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#4
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> What makes men attracted to woman, Visa Versa?
This made me think of something (ok, its tangential to this thread, hope you don't mind a hijack of sorts; but, maybe it is relevent .
The concept of beauty.
One thing that was new to me when I started studying philosophy was the rejection by many folks (theists and non-theists alike) of scientism. And one reason (among others) for rejecting scientism was that science cannot "prove" something is beautiful (which is, I guess, what your question is related to - in other words, can you use science to answer your question or, more broadly, the question "why do we think of something as beautiful?").
I actually found this an interesting thought because I've always seen science shows that attempt to, for example, measure people's faces and based on their facial dimensions attempts to grade them on a beauty scale (kinda like what that Apple iPod app claimed to do).
But then I thought - looking at the Northern Lights, they are beautiful. But, I know this not by any scientific method - it just is beautiful (and I would think we'd be hard pressed to find any to think that they are ugly).
Anyway, sorry to hijack this thread, but it reminded me of this. I would be interested in both theist and non-theists thoughts on whether or not you think the "truth" of something being beautiful is a viable objection to scientism. Can you use science to determine "beauty".
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Ricky247
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Posted 06/22/12 at 07:35 PM
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#5
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Jude,
I really liked your answer a lot! Here are some thongs I wanted to note: What about having nice hair - what is that synonyms with?
(2) Also are our brains still evolutionarily conditioned for tribal living. In other words, I've read that our brains still have not adapted to 21st century life - we're out of date machines. We still think in terms of us living in a tribal society - is this True?
(3) Also can someone please comment on the dilemma I raised on intelligent woman not being fertile
(4) Very Important: Please list some attributes that woman find attractive to men and show how their evolutionarily linked - like you did before.
(5) Also what are the references that make your statements true
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propertyofgod
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Posted 06/22/12 at 07:36 PM
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#6
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Quote: Originally Posted by mazzgolf> What makes men attracted to woman, Visa Versa?
This made me think of something (ok, its tangential to this thread, hope you don't mind a hijack of sorts; but, maybe it is relevent .
The concept of beauty.
One thing that was new to me when I started studying philosophy was the rejection by many folks (theists and non-theists alike) of scientism. And one reason (among others) for rejecting scientism was that science cannot "prove" something is beautiful (which is, I guess, what your question is related to - in other words, can you use science to answer your question or, more broadly, the question "why do we think of something as beautiful?").
I actually found this an interesting thought because I've always seen science shows that attempt to, for example, measure people's faces and based on their facial dimensions attempts to grade them on a beauty scale (kinda like what that Apple iPod app claimed to do).
But then I thought - looking at the Northern Lights, they are beautiful. But, I know this not by any scientific method - it just is beautiful (and I would think we'd be hard pressed to find any to think that they are ugly).
Anyway, sorry to hijack this thread, but it reminded me of this. I would be interested in both theist and non-theists thoughts on whether or not you think the "truth" of something being beautiful is a viable objection to scientism. Can you use science to determine "beauty".
I have often wondered if men have a desire for women, just because they are beautiful. Is that an actual turn-on, or a false assumption. Men are said to have a picture of their mother in their head, till married, then their wife. But is that for reproductive purposes, or just identifying with the opposite sex?
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Rostos
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Posted 06/22/12 at 07:50 PM
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#7
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Why did even different sex come about? It is very very expensive......Surely that goes against evolution and the chances of reproduction decline significantly.
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Matthias
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Posted 06/22/12 at 08:02 PM
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#8
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I think it's important to emphasize that humans evolved to be open to non-biological sources of programming; indeed, this is the origin of our incredible success as a species. You can make a parlour game of coming up with adaptive explanations for this or that specific behavior, but oftentimes sociological explanations are stronger.
Quote: Originally Posted by propertyofgod
I have often wondered if men have a desire for women, just because they are beautiful.
Men desire women (the same being true of the other combinations) for many reasons - certainly not just on the basis of physical beauty. But in that beauty does certainly play a role, it might be more accurate to say that people are beautiful because they are desired (although not all such aesthetic appreciation motivating the "beauty" judgment is strictly sexual.)
Quote: Originally Posted by Rostos
Why did even different sex come about? It is very very expensive......Surely that goes against evolution and the chances of reproduction decline significantly.
You know how IDers say that negative mutations will always outpace positive mutations, so evolution is impossible? That's more or less what happens to clonal species. (Bacteria and such don't need sex because they can swap DNA directly.)
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JudeNebula
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Posted 06/22/12 at 08:36 PM
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#9
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Quote: Originally Posted by Ricky247
Jude,
I really liked your answer a lot! Here are some thongs I wanted to note: What about having nice hair - what is that synonyms with?
(2) Also are our brains still evolutionarily conditioned for tribal living. In other words, I've read that our brains still have not adapted to 21st century life - we're out of date machines. We still think in terms of us living in a tribal society - is this True?
(3) Also can someone please comment on the dilemma I raised on intelligent woman not being fertile
(4) Very Important: Please list some attributes that woman find attractive to men and show how their evolutionarily linked - like you did before.
(5) Also what are the references that make your statements true
2)Yes are brains are definitely still wired for tribal living, your bodies too. That is why people today are pathetically obese. Your body was made for running around the forest hunting food every day. Not sitting at a desk. You didn't evolve to eat processed foods, you evolved to eat whole natural meats and vegetables.
4) Women find the following traits attractive in men- tall, physically healthy bodies that are both strong and have stamina, wide shoulders, thin waists--these are all signs of physical health..Confidence, intelligence, humor, ..
5)I'm not doing your homework assignment for you am I?
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propertyofgod
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Posted 06/22/12 at 09:32 PM
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#10
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Quote: Originally Posted by RostosWhy did even different sex come about? It is very very expensive......Surely that goes against evolution and the chances of reproduction decline significantly.
I think the better question is "How?"
Twins mating?
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JudeNebula
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Posted 06/22/12 at 10:00 PM
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#11
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Quote: Originally Posted by RostosWhy did even different sex come about? It is very very expensive......Surely that goes against evolution and the chances of reproduction decline significantly.
Looking up answers for yourself...why don't you do it?
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Ricky247
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Posted 06/23/12 at 12:38 AM
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#12
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Jude,
Haha, no. As much as it sounds like it - your not doing any homework for me. I'm just generally interested in the subject - which is why I asked for resources so I can study into it more. Secondly I'm also a skeptical person and my mind just requires some consensus on weather or not something is evident.
In regards to the 4th topic I raised: Why would a thin waist, humor and intelligence be attractive in a guy. What are they linked to evolutionarily speaking.
6) Also, I'll take a guess and say intelligence is important amongst a tribe because it can lead to survival - thus, why would I find intelligence in a woman? I doubt tribes consulting smaller alphafemales for help.
Jude, I just find this stuff fascinating - that's why I ask. Thanks so much for answering them. But, for some reason I feel that the attributes I listed go deeper as health indicators - I just feel that we haven't totally solved this question.
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JudeNebula
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Posted 06/23/12 at 12:45 AM
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#13
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Ricky,
A smart woman will give smart offspring...remember that in the end the goal is successful reproduction, you want a woman who will you give kids who will give you grandkids..etc...
And women do need to be smart, women navigate elaborate social relationship webs, they also had to be able to find food etc..
Males have thin waists because that is a more athletic build then being a fatty..Humor..Women love to laugh...
I can give you a few book recommendations if you think this stuff is fascinating..
Matt Ridley-The Red Queen Sex and Human Nature
Jared Diamond- The Third Chimpanzee
Christopher Ryan- Sex At Dawn
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Chris9809
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Posted 06/23/12 at 08:41 AM
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#14
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While I agree with most of what you said Jude, I have to wonder, what about fetishes? I mean sure a lot of women would prefer a thin, healthy male over a potentially unhealthy obese male, but that isn't always the case. As a rather large man myself, I've dated women who, while rather fit themselves, just preferred the "big boys" as it was often put. Often an attribute they were fond of was the feeling of being protected, where a smaller guy they claimed nearly unanimously they felt like they would have to defend him, not the other way around.
I suppose people with other fetishes such as feet, or something would potentially be more of a "case by case" basis or something. I had a friend who actually dated a girl due to her having pretty feet (apparently she wore sandals their first date).
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vmancha
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Posted 06/23/12 at 11:44 AM
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#15
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Quote: Originally Posted by RostosWhy did even different sex come about? It is very very expensive......Surely that goes against evolution and the chances of reproduction decline significantly.
Dawkins wonders why sex in one interview. Of course being an English man gives explanatory power 
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