| Kenny |
| Posted 06/02/10 at 02:42 AM | Reply with quote #16 |
|
Quote: Originally Posted by skepticon
In his book Reasonable Faith, Craig argues that reason is a valid, and indeed, very useful tool for bringing unbelievers to the Christian religion. He cites as examples C.S. Lewis and Lee Strobel (pg. 22).
Well, maybe you should try reading chapter 1 in Reasonable Faith where Craig writes more in depth about reason and how it is utilized for Christians.
Quote: It may be useful, but God in truth disallows reason.
You'd have to quote in the Bible where God says something to the effect of "I don't want you to reason at all. It's wrong!"
Quote: The Christian message is "Believe in it, or suffer horrific consequences."
Actually, it's more like "Believe in it, because it's the truth." Dr. Craig said that Christians are not motivated by fear of hell:
Hell is merely the consequences of not following God. It may not be great knowing you'd fall to your death from a 100 feet cliff but that is the consequences. Sorry, but God will not force you to love Him.
Quote: Am I thus free to utilize reason to consider the Christian gospel? No.
Well, that's by your own free will you chose not to.
Quote: My assent is demanded...or else.
If God told you that, I'd like to see how. So far, you haven't even quoted any scripture. You just assumed it.
Quote: What if, employing reason, I conclude Christianity is false? Too bad.
All the laws of logic show is whether reasoning is valid or not. Technically something can logically follow yet still be wrong. For instance, atheist Bertrand Russell said there is no logical impossibility that the world was made about 5 minutes ago! He writes,
Quote: "There is no logical impossibility in the hypothesis that the world sprang into being five minutes ago, exactly as it then was, with a population that 'remembered' a wholly unreal past. There is no logically necessary connection between events at different times; therefore nothing that is happening now or will happen in the future can disprove the hypothesis that the world began five minutes ago."
- Bertrand Russell, The Analysis of Mind (1921), p. 159
Quote: I'm punished. Eternally. Horrifically. God thus doesn't want me to use reason. He wants me to simply swallow the gospel. Martin Luther was right to dismiss reason.
Look, you haven't shown us anywhere in Scripture where it says reasoning is wrong.
Just bear in mind reason and evidence is not the only way of knowing truth lest we run into a infinite regress of explanation:
Also, if you read Chapter 1 in Reasonable Faith (something tells me you haven't read it yet), Craig speaks of knowing God through the immediate experience of God, because it is a properly basic belief. This is the view that you can hold to a proposition without evidence but it is still rational to do so. Craig explains what a properly basic belief is:
|
| Loading... | |
| fourfemur |
| Posted 06/02/10 at 02:32 PM | Reply with quote #17 |
|
To the original poster:
I think your conclusion is so bare-bones that it even runs the risk of reflecting some other religion that is not christianity.
Your right to say the consequence of unbelief is eternal damnation, and that you could reasonably conclude that christianity is false, die, wake up before God, and hear those frightening words and spend an eternity in hell.
All this because you reasoned that christianity is false. However, from this it does not follow that in light of that, God discourages reason. The bible in many places encourages the use of reason and the mind, as another method of loving God and reaching people. The book of Acts records Paul reasoning in the synagogues with jews, and infact much of pauls ministry involved the use of reason. In fact I would be so bold to call paul an early william lane craig 
But the real reason why your original post is wrong is because the reason you are going to Hell if you do not believe in God is not *simply* an intellectual disagreement with christianity. God will condemn you on behalf of your life lived according to the standard he has set by his son and by his decree, and in fact, God could judge you based off of your own standard of morality. God would in this case be sending you to hell for your sins, the most significant of them would be your lack of trust in the atoning sacrifice of his son as a real peace offering from God and rejection of his great act of love.
So if you were to reduce your reason for rejecting God as purely intellectual, I think on the last day God would infact expose the true macinations of your heart.
Im not making any judgements of you in saying this, please dont misunderstand. Im just trying to help you see that this is not just black and white believe or die. Its actually more like 'your wicked and deserve to die but I can fix that if you would just repent and believe in my son'.
As the bible says in Jeremiah 17:9
"9 “ The heart is deceitful above all things,
And desperately wicked;
Who can know it? "
This, i find every day, is profoundly true.
|
| Loading... | |
| gralan |
| Posted 06/02/10 at 08:38 PM | Reply with quote #18 |
|
Come, God says, Let us reason together. |
| Loading... | |
| idrovetheepb |
| Posted 06/02/10 at 11:40 PM | Reply with quote #19 |
|
| Well said fourfemur!
|
| Loading... | |
| joel |
| Posted 06/03/10 at 02:32 PM | Reply with quote #20 |
|
Quote: Originally Posted by skepticon
In his book Reasonable Faith, Craig argues that reason is a valid, and indeed, very useful tool for bringing unbelievers to the Christian religion. He cites as examples C.S. Lewis and Lee Strobel (pg. 22).
It may be useful, but God in truth disallows reason. The Christian message is "Believe in it, or suffer horrific consequences." Am I thus free to utilize reason to consider the Christian gospel? No. My assent is demanded...or else.
What if, employing reason, I conclude Christianity is false? Too bad. I'm punished. Eternally. Horrifically. God thus doesn't want me to use reason. He wants me to simply swallow the gospel. Martin Luther was right to dismiss reason.
The first thing to do when you are presented with a belief system that threatens dire consequences for your actions is to reason whether the threat is credible, correct? Already we see reason in the equation.
Also, your contention that God disallows reason I find to be totally without merit. Governments set up systems of laws. The punishment for breaking those laws can be quite significant. Does it then follow that Governments disallow reason? Of course not. That's an absurd conclusion. People under governmental rule are reasoning all the time, while obeying the command of the Government they are under.
The government analogy really unmasks your argument as a false dilemma. Reason and obedience are not mutually exclusive. A follower of Christ can both obediently follow and reason out why he would be commanded to do so simultaneously. Just as you can obey a law commanding you not to drive drunk while reasoning out why such a law is in place.
|
| Loading... | |
| skepticon |
| Posted 06/03/10 at 06:45 PM | Reply with quote #21 |
|
Quote: Originally Posted by Kenny
Well, maybe you should try reading chapter 1 in Reasonable Faith where Craig writes more in depth about reason and how it is utilized for Christians.
How reason is utilized for Christians is not relevant to my argument. My argument concerns getting to Christian belief.
Quote: Originally Posted by Kenny
You'd have to quote in the Bible where God says something to the effect of "I don't want you to reason at all. It's wrong!"
So if something has to be explicitly prohibited in the Bible to be disallowed? Pro-choice Christians will not take that well.
Quote: Originally Posted by Kenny
Actually, it's more like "Believe in it, because it's the truth." Dr. Craig said that Christians are not motivated by fear of hell:
It may indeed be the truth, but reason is not the means with which God allows you to obtain it.
Quote: Originally Posted by Kenny
Hell is merely the consequences of not following God. It may not be great knowing you'd fall to your death from a 100 feet cliff but that is the consequences. Sorry, but God will not force you to love Him.
Sort of like how being beat up is the consequence of not giving the bully your lunch money. The bully isn't forcing you to give him the money. Remember, you have a choice!
Quote: Originally Posted by Kenny
If God told you that, I'd like to see how. So far, you haven't even quoted any scripture. You just assumed it.
I haven't assumed anything, but demonstrated it.
Quote: What if, employing reason, I conclude Christianity is false? Too bad.
Quote: Originally Posted by Kenny
All the laws of logic show is whether reasoning is valid or not. Technically something can logically follow yet still be wrong.
Yes, as I've pointed out before. Reason is imperfect, which is why, when the punishment for disbelief is so horrific, reason cannot be relied upon. One must simply swallow the message.
Quote: Originally Posted by Kenny
Look, you haven't shown us anywhere in Scripture where it says reasoning is wrong.
I need not to. It's a conclusion based on the Christian message.
Quote: Originally Posted by Kenny
Just bear in mind reason and evidence is not the only way of knowing truth lest we run into a infinite regress of explanation:
Except for the small problem that every other religious believer does the same to arrive at their "truth".
Quote: Originally Posted by Kenny
Also, if you read Chapter 1 in Reasonable Faith (something tells me you haven't read it yet), Craig speaks of knowing God through the immediate experience of God, because it is a properly basic belief. This is the view that you can hold to a proposition without evidence but it is still rational to do so. Craig explains what a properly basic belief is:
Similar to knowing Allah through the immediate experience of Allah? So Islamic belief is rational too?
Similar to knowing Mazda through the immediate experience of Mazda? So Zoroastrianism is rational too?
|
| Loading... | |
| skepticon |
| Posted 06/03/10 at 07:08 PM | Reply with quote #22 |
|
Quote: Originally Posted by fourfemur
But the real reason why your original post is wrong is because the reason you are going to Hell if you do not believe in God is not *simply* an intellectual disagreement with christianity. God will condemn you on behalf of your life lived according to the standard he has set by his son and by his decree, and in fact, God could judge you based off of your own standard of morality. God would in this case be sending you to hell for your sins, the most significant of them would be your lack of trust in the atoning sacrifice of his son as a real peace offering from God and rejection of his great act of love.
Then reason is not just pointless, but indeed dangerous, as Martin Luther concluded. Why? Because it provides a means to ignore my "guilt," which was established at birth. The Christian simply points my "guilt" out. I don't feel guilty and nothing you say convinces me I am? Too bad. I'd be going to hell anyway.
Quote: Originally Posted by fourfemur
So if you were to reduce your reason for rejecting God as purely intellectual, I think on the last day God would infact expose the true macinations of your heart.
Precisely. The message is clear: don't utilize reason. Don't even think it can get you out of the horrific, eternal torture. Accept the message, bow your knee to Jesus, and you're saved. Reason can offer you nothing.
Quote: Originally Posted by fourfemur
Im not making any judgements of you in saying this, please dont misunderstand. Im just trying to help you see that this is not just black and white believe or die. Its actually more like 'your wicked and deserve to die but I can fix that if you would just repent and believe in my son'.
You say it's not "black and white" but your very next words show that it is.
And if all are deserving death anyway, then once again, the Christian's job is merely to point this out, as well as the consequences for disbelief. By trying to reason with non-believers, the Christian is engaging on a plane which Christianity may be rejected. But to reject Christianity earns you horrific, eternal torture. Thus, don't reason with people. Merely point out how wicked they are, how they're deserving of this torture, and present your message. There's nothing to "reason" about with the non-believer.
This is why God in fact disallows reason.
|
| Loading... | |
| skepticon |
| Posted 06/03/10 at 07:23 PM | Reply with quote #23 |
|
Quote: Originally Posted by joel
The first thing to do when you are presented with a belief system that threatens dire consequences for your actions is to reason whether the threat is credible, correct? Already we see reason in the equation.
If I don't the threat credible? Will that save me from it, according to Christians? Nope.
Quote: Originally Posted by joel
Also, your contention that God disallows reason I find to be totally without merit.
I think my first post was clear that reason as a means to accepting the gospel is what God disallows. When you threaten someone for disbelieving your message, you're actually prescribing their belief.
Quote: Originally Posted by joel
The government analogy really unmasks your argument as a false dilemma. Reason and obedience are not mutually exclusive. A follower of Christ can both obediently follow and reason out why he would be commanded to do so simultaneously. Just as you can obey a law commanding you not to drive drunk while reasoning out why such a law is in place.
Once belief in the Christian message is established, God cares not how you justify it in your mind. It's establishing the belief in the first place where God doesn't want you to reason.
|
| Loading... | |
| fourfemur |
| Posted 06/03/10 at 07:29 PM | Reply with quote #24 |
|
Help me out here. God sets fourth a moral law that you must submit to. You break this moral law. And now you need justice. Justice on Gods grounds is hell.
If we assume christianity is true, this is the current situation, wether you like it or not.
Now from that, how does it follow that God discourages reason? . . .
Are you saying that God discourages thoughtful inquiry of him?
And what does this say of the hundreds of people that through the use of reason have concluded that the bible really is accurate when it defines the human condition, and more importantly that they are indeed, sinful, and in need of a savior? Its entirely possible that someone may be convinced by reason of the moral argument and be led to God and saving faith because of it. Does that sort of reasoning not count?
Or are you saying that God discourages the use of logic and critical thinking? How can this be the case when someone could logically conclude that a creator must have created the universe we live in, and furthermore that that creator is Jesus, who has existed from eternity past and will endure throughout all time, and who was telling the absolute truth when he said "you" (thinker in this scenario) are sinful, you've not only fallen short of your own moral standard but you've broken mine, and through me will you only receive forgiveness and eternal life?
Or are you saying that the act of repentence is not a 'logical' or 'reasonable' one? Im just not following you here.
I get the impression that you think that because God's punishment for sin is death, therefore it follows that God discourages reason.
These two things are so disconnected that im honestly having a bit of trouble trying to understand where you are coming from.
If God's justice demands punishment for sin, then thats just the way it is. The way you portray it is something like, 'God has thrown out an equation, and anyone who gets it wrong is damned for all eternity'. When the situation here is, 'you have broken my law and my justice demands your death'. So believe the message -- wether this comes through logical conclusions leading up to the conviction that Jesus is God, or simple 'emotive' repentence following a conviction of ones own personal shortcomings before a righteous God. In either case, nothing in the gospel implies that God discourages the use of reason.
The punishment for sin is death. From this it does not follow that the punishment for 'getting the puzzle wrong' is death. If God disallowed the use of reason as another method of being led to his Son, pauls entire ministry as it was recorded in the new testament was in vain.
As a side note, though, strict logical inquiry will only get you so far. At a point, you must abandon faith in your crippled and fallen ability to reason and champion your way to God. You will need to place absolute trust in his Son. Jesus wants you to go further than whimsical human dialogue and discourse. Hes not looking for some robotic, disconnected child. He wants know you personally.
|
| Loading... | |
| skepticon |
| Posted 06/03/10 at 09:08 PM | Reply with quote #25 |
|
Quote: Originally Posted by fourfemur
Help me out here. God sets fourth a moral law that you must submit to. You break this moral law. And now you need justice. Justice on Gods grounds is hell.
If we assume christianity is true, this is the current situation, wether you like it or not.
Now from that, how does it follow that God discourages reason? . . .
Reason plays no part in any of this. These are merely brute facts. God disallows reason because it may lead you to deny these brute facts.
Quote: Originally Posted by fourfemur
Are you saying that God discourages thoughtful inquiry of him?
I don't think God cares. If you take Him 100% on faith, you're just as saved as the guy who spent all his life as an apologist.
Quote: Originally Posted by fourfemur
And what does this say of the hundreds of people that through the use of reason have concluded that the bible really is accurate when it defines the human condition, and more importantly that they are indeed, sinful, and in need of a savior? Its entirely possible that someone may be convinced by reason of the moral argument and be led to God and saving faith because of it. Does that sort of reasoning not count?
When faced with the threat of horrific, eternal torture, I would deny reason played wholly in their conclusion. How easy it is to agree with the person holding the gun to your head, particularly if disagreement means he'll pull the trigger.
But ok, let's assume reason played some part in their belief. It doesn't matter to God. What matters is that they believe. These people got lucky in their reasoning. If they were mistaken or unlucky, they'd be sent to hell.
As I stated before, if God truly allowed me the use of reason, He'd accept my conclusion no matter what it was. He would not horrifically and eternally torture me forever for merely being reasonably mistaken. This would be barbarism and contrary to the characteristic of "just".
Quote: Originally Posted by fourfemur
Or are you saying that God discourages the use of logic and critical thinking? How can this be the case when someone could logically conclude that a creator must have created the universe we live in, and furthermore that that creator is Jesus, who has existed from eternity past and will endure throughout all time, and who was telling the absolute truth when he said "you" (thinker in this scenario) are sinful, you've not only fallen short of your own moral standard but you've broken mine, and through me will you only receive forgiveness and eternal life?
Yes, that's what I'm saying. Simply because you can reasonably conclude the things you say doesn't mean that's what's demanded of you. If you ask Muslims, they can just as surely say with full conviction they logically concluded that a creator must have created the universe we live in, and further more, that creator is Allah, who has existed from eternity past and will endure throughout all time, and who was telling the absolute truth when He said "you" are sinful, you've not only fallen short of your own moral standard, but you've broken His, and only through Him will you receive forgiveness and paradise?
Will this matter to God? Nope! Muslims will be horrifically and eternally tortured.
Quote: Originally Posted by fourfemur
Or are you saying that the act of repentence is not a 'logical' or 'reasonable' one? Im just not following you here.
What I'm saying is that logic or reason have nothing to do with it when it's demanded. And if the demand isn't met, then you're fried.
Quote: Originally Posted by fourfemur
I get the impression that you think that because God's punishment for sin is death, therefore it follows that God discourages reason.
If you haven't already, it might help if you read some of my previous replies to others.
What I'm saying is that reason is in effect disallowed because its use can get you eternally and horrifically tortured.
How is it right to say on the one hand, "You're free to utilize reason in assessing the truth of my message," and then on the other say, "But if by doing so you conclude it's false, you'll be tortured forever"? No sane person would agree reason is in fact being permitted.
Quote: Originally Posted by fourfemur
If God's justice demands punishment for sin, then thats just the way it is. The way you portray it is something like, 'God has thrown out an equation, and anyone who gets it wrong is damned for all eternity'. When the situation here is, 'you have broken my law and my justice demands your death'. So believe the message -- wether this comes through logical conclusions leading up to the conviction that Jesus is God, or simple 'emotive' repentence following a conviction of ones own personal shortcomings before a righteous God. In either case, nothing in the gospel implies that God discourages the use of reason.
"God's justice demands eternal, horrific torture for sin" is simply a brute fact with which reason plays no part. There is no possibility for disbelief of this fact. Reasonably concluding otherwise will not save you. If you're going to use reason, you had better "reason" to the right conclusion.
This is not the message of someone who grants you the right of reason. It's the message of the extortionist. "Give me what I want, or be brutally punished."
Quote: Originally Posted by fourfemur
The punishment for sin is death. From this it does not follow that the punishment for 'getting the puzzle wrong' is death. If God disallowed the use of reason as another method of being led to his Son, pauls entire ministry as it was recorded in the new testament was in vain.
It has nothing to do with a puzzle; this is an incorrect analogy. It's more like, "Disbelief is death".
Paul, like Jesus, issued the threat. Christians merely need do the same. Reasoning is pointless. If you lose the argument with someone, does that change a thing? Nope. The person still gets horrifically and eternally tortured.
Quote: Originally Posted by fourfemur
As a side note, though, strict logical inquiry will only get you so far. At a point, you must abandon faith in your crippled and fallen ability to reason and champion your way to God. You will need to place absolute trust in his Son. Jesus wants you to go further than whimsical human dialogue and discourse. Hes not looking for some robotic, disconnected child. He wants know you personally.
Yes, well funny that. It's precisely what the Muslim tells me. And the Mormon. And the Jew. And the millions of other believes of millions of other religions. And guess what? If you do that, then you'll be a believer of their religion too! It's worked for them, so why not for you?
In the end, we either have to play Russian roullette with our beliefs and hope to get lucky with the right ones, or base our beliefs purely on what's reasonable to us.
|
| Loading... | |
| OrdinaryClay |
| Posted 06/03/10 at 10:24 PM | Reply with quote #26 |
|
Quote: Originally Posted by skepticon
As I stated before, ...
Your posts are a repeated sequence of non-sequiturs. I know this must make you feel vindicated, but verbosity does not an argument make. Your claim that Christianity disallows reason remains completely unsubstantiated. If your position is as strong as you think then by all means form a syllogism substantiating it. Clear uncluttered reasoning is the most convincing. Have at it.
|
| Loading... | |
| joel |
| Posted 06/03/10 at 11:22 PM | Reply with quote #27 |
|
Quote: Originally Posted by skepticonQuote: Originally Posted by joel
The first thing to do when you are presented with a belief system that threatens dire consequences for your actions is to reason whether the threat is credible, correct? Already we see reason in the equation. If I don't the threat credible? Will that save me from it, according to Christians? Nope.
Let's continue the governmental/law analogy. If you were to "reason" your way into thinking that drunk driving is an acceptable practice should you indignantly tell the judge that you are being punished just because you reasoned improperly? You're still going to jail, and not solely because you reasoned improperly, but also because of the actions you took from your wrong conclusion.
Keep in mind that your condemnation before God is not just the result of unbelief. But like everyone else on this thread, your actions (self-worship, selfishness, and moral corruption...sin, in other words) have earned your eternal consequence. God is offering you a way out by sacrificing another in your place. Some of us have taken it, you may refuse to take that other way out if you so choose. But let's not pretend that you have no moral culpability in this. It's not simply "reasoning wrong" that lands you eternal punishment.
|
| Loading... | |
| skepticon |
| Posted 06/04/10 at 05:26 PM | Reply with quote #28 |
|
Quote: Originally Posted by joel
Let's continue the governmental/law analogy. If you were to "reason" your way into thinking that drunk driving is an acceptable practice should you indignantly tell the judge that you are being punished just because you reasoned improperly? You're still going to jail, and not solely because you reasoned improperly, but also because of the actions you took from your wrong conclusion.
I don't think your analogy is appropriate. I'm not disputing any of God's laws or hold they can be reasoned with. I fully understand the Christian message that we're "guilty." No exceptions (Romans 3:10). Consequently, we deserve horrific and eternal torture. But, God offers a way out.
Christians try to reason with me to accept this way out. They say God endorses such efforts. But what if Christians fail at reasoning with me? What if my arguments are better than theirs? What if I can demonstrate to myself, on the basis of reason, that the Christian message is actually quite foolish, incoherent, and internally contradictory? Clearly I'm mistaken, but that won't get me off the hook. I'll still be horrifically and eternally tortured.
What if Craig, at one of his debates, brought a shotgun and announced that he's going to argue on behalf of Christianity. Those who don't find his arguments convincing following the debate he'll shoot dead.
Ridiculous, right? It would expose the debate as a sham. Yet, this is precisely the situation Christianity faces us with. It doesn't grant anyone the right to intellectually weigh its case. It simply says, "Believe in Christ Jesus or be tortured."
Quote: Originally Posted by joel
Keep in mind that your condemnation before God is not just the result of unbelief. But like everyone else on this thread, your actions (self-worship, selfishness, and moral corruption...sin, in other words) have earned your eternal consequence. God is offering you a way out by sacrificing another in your place. Some of us have taken it, you may refuse to take that other way out if you so choose. But let's not pretend that you have no moral culpability in this. It's not simply "reasoning wrong" that lands you eternal punishment.
No argument from me here. That's why it's merely the Christian's job to point this out "as the way it is."
|
| Loading... | |
| fourfemur |
| Posted 06/05/10 at 04:10 AM | Reply with quote #29 |
|
So to keep this from turning into back and fourth ill leave you one last thought, and you may have the last word.
I am inclined to agree with one of the analogies presented and I will try to present my own.
Lets say you download 2 songs off the new Lady Gaga album (illegal). You have now broken the law.
As your riding your bike to work, a police man stops you and informs you that if you've broken the law, your going to have to spend some time in jail. However, the police man is struck with a bolt of grace and says, 'you know what, I like you so if you tell me what you did, ill let you off the hook.'
At this point you have a choice. Fess up to your crimes, or risk getting caught & punished. If its true that you've comitted a crime (and according to this scenario you have), then you must adhere to the options the police man has given you. You are welcome to reasonably conclude that the cop is a liar, but that has no bearing on the truth of the situation -- that you stole songs & broke the law.
Now from this, how can we conclude that this cop explicitly or even implicitly discourages reason? Here is the cop, standing in front of you, telling you you broke the law. Its *true* that you broke the law, therefore it *true* that you must pay the price, or confess your crime. I understand things are a little different in the real world (God isint literally standing in front of you), so forgive the incompleteness of this.
The point is, according to the legal system here you've broken the law and must pay for it according to those in authority. Same can be said in real life.
If you drive with no seat belt, you might get pulled over and fined. Would you say that because of this the state discourages reason? Minus the severity penalty, this is virtually identical to the charge you present (if we assume God exists.) Brute facts, indifferent to reason.
To bring this back into the conversation at hand, if its true that the Christian God exists, then its true that you are guilty of sin. God in his mercy has given you a brain to use reason to come to certain conclusion about the world, and even in test his word to see if its true. You may draw nearer and nearer to him by way of reason. However, through all your days of reasoning and discourse, you still have a big problem -- your sin. And if in all of your studies and reasoning you stop shy of the cross and fail to ultimately acknoweldge and confess your own wickedness, well, your reason cant save you. Jesus didnt say 'bring your reasoning to the cross'. You dont have a reason problem, you have a sin problem. But surely you can conceive of a person who by way of reason may be lead closer to the truth of Christianity -- ultimately leading up to repentence? I have no doubt you can.
I believe you said something very telling here: Quote: I don't think God cares. If you take Him 100% on faith, you're just as saved as the guy who spent all his life as an apologist.
This is absolutely right. The apologist and the "dumb" convert are both sinners. God is so good that in his great grace he doesnt force you to pass a knowledge exam to see if your "smart enough" for salvation. The 2 year old who cant speak but knows Jesus is just as loved by God as a Stephen Hawking intellect.
If I can make my point one last time . . . Your sin is real, Gods justice is real, and God's mercy is real. You and I have a problem that we cant solve. We have offended God. If the christian God exists, this is true.
Salvation depends on repentence and faith in the work of Jesus Christ. Thats it. Not the reasoning of brilliant minds. Its not guesswork. Its simple recognizing of our own selfishness an idol worshiping, and then confessing our sinful brokeness to God. Thats all he wants man. He doesnt want you to slide him an IQ test. At the same time, God in no way discourages you to use the mind he has given you to consider his message. If at the end of your life you never come to grips with the christian message, so be it. It is possible that the christian God could actually not exist. Obviously I dont believe that, but I hope you understand what I mean. I hope at some point you can see where im coming from. I think you confuse what salvation is on Gods grounds. Nothing about the christian message discourages reason. Its completely non-sequitur.
Salvation through faith in Jesus, not through works of the mind, friend. Use the gifts and mind you have and draw your conclusions. You may have the last word 
|
| Loading... | |
| Kenny |
| Posted 06/05/10 at 05:46 AM | Reply with quote #30 |
|
Quote: Originally Posted by skepticon
How reason is utilized for Christians is not relevant to my argument.
Well, you said that God disallows reason, and you said so without even showing that to be the case. So, I think it's very relevant.
Quote: My argument concerns getting to Christian belief.
Okay.
Quote: So if something has to be explicitly prohibited in the Bible to be disallowed?
 Well, duh! The Bible does command we shouldn't worship any other gods except Christ.
Quote: Pro-choice Christians will not take that well.
Abortion is definitely condemned in the Bible. As we read Psalms we see that those who are formed in the mother's wombs are considered people:
Quote: For You have formed my inward parts; You have covered me in my mother’s womb. I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; marvelous are Your works, and that my soul knows very well. My frame was not hidden from You, when I was made in secret, and skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed. And in Your book they all were written, the days fashioned for me, when as yet there were none of them (Psalm 139:13-16).
Look, at least the two examples above shows what is explicitly prohibited in the Bible. We can at least see in principle what is disallowed. For instance, stealing is prohibited in the Bible. But the word "Ipad" is not in the Bible. But we know by principle we are not to steal someone's Ipad. This is just common sense and I don't see why it's so hard to follow.
Quote: It may indeed be the truth, but reason is not the means with which God allows you to obtain it.
Well again, you never showed that to be the case. You merely assumed it without showing it to be the case.Quote: Sort of like how being beat up is the consequence of not giving the bully your lunch money.
Well, that's if you think God is a bully. But He's not. As Dr. Craig said He wants to be in a loving relationship with you.
Quote: The bully isn't forcing you to give him the money.
That's a laugh! Then that means he's not a bully. Why can't someone force you to give him money? Is it not possible that he can physically overcome you and grab the money from your unwilling hands?
Quote: Remember, you have a choice!
Well, yes, but God doesn't force Himself on you like a bully. Your analogy is false. And if it isn't then show me in Scripture that God forces you to love Him. You haven't shown that to be the case. And you haven't show that God wants an irrational disbelief in Him.
Quote: Originally Posted by Kenny
I haven't assumed anything, but demonstrated it.
Well, your demonstration is based on a false premise, because God does not disallow reasoning. You never showed that to be the case.
Quote: Yes, as I've pointed out before. Reason is imperfect, which is why, when the punishment for disbelief is so horrific, reason cannot be relied upon.
That doesn't follow. Just because something is horrific that doesn't mean reason is no longer relied upon. How is that the case?
Quote: One must simply swallow the message.
That still doesn't follow though. If I was kidnapped by Al Qaeda terrorists, and they say they're going to saw my head off, that doesn't automatically mean I no longer rely on reasoning.
Quote: I need not to. It's a conclusion based on the Christian message.
Well, if it's based on the Christian message, and the Christian message is based on Scripture, then you'd have to show us in Scripture where it says reasoning is wrong.
Quote: Except for the small problem that every other religious believer does the same to arrive at their "truth".
PRECISELY! They have a properly basic belief as well. That's where we can reason and show that the other religion is false! The Bible does command us to defend Christianity:
Quote: Always be prepared to give to every man who asks you a reasoned defense (apologia) for the hope that lies within you but do this with gentleness and respect." - 1 Peter 3:15
And as you can see reasoning is encouraged in the Bible, which refutes your point.
Quote: Similar to knowing Allah through the immediate experience of Allah? So Islamic belief is rational too?
Possibly. But again as I mentioned above we can then show the other person wrong.
Quote: Similar to knowing Mazda through the immediate experience of Mazda? So Zoroastrianism is rational too?
They can be. If their experience is veridical and true I'd like to see how. Having a properly basic belief in God doesn't mean you're necessarily right. You'd have to have a defeater to help the situation. Dr. Craig speaks of the immediate experience of God as properly basic in relation to other religions - this question is right up your allie:
I hope that helps. And I would urge you to read Chapter 1 of Reasonable Faith because it's obvious you haven't read the book in full.
|
| Loading... | |
