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Archsage
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Posted 07/28/12
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#46
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Quote: Originally Posted by SeekingTruth
Still, isn't our personality the very thing that makes us, well, us? When it changes, we ourselves change.
I'm not sure what do you exactly mean by will, but if I understand it right, isn't that also a thing that we develop? How could a newborn have this kind of "will"?
No, it is the opposite. It is us who make our personalities the way they are, not the other way around. Our personalities are a reflection of our volition (will).
Our will is not something we develop. Either you have it or you don't. If you don't have it, you're like a rock, or a river. You move not because you want to, but because gravity forces you. Either you have will or you don't. If you don't have it, you're like a computer. You compute, but you do not think. You operate, but you do not act.
You're 'will' is what characterizes your essence. Your personality, on the other hand, is crafted by your will, as well as circumstance. That is why your personality changes on what you want to do/be like, and why it changes depending on who your company is.
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SeekingTruth
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Posted 07/28/12
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#47
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A few concerns of mine regarding the ten commandments
"You shall not make for yourself an idol or a likeness of anything in the heavens above or on the earth below or in the waters beneath the earth; you shall not bow down before them or serve them. For I, the LORD, your God, am a jealous God, inflicting punishment for their ancestors’ wickedness on the children of those who hate me, down to the third and fourth generation"
To put it simply and in as few words as possible, this gravely contradicts God's supposed image, doesn't it?
God is supposed to be all-loving. Here's another bible quote: “Love is always patient and kind; it is never jealous, love is never boastful or conceited; it is never rude or selfish; it does not take offense, and is not resentful.(...)"
Also, how is it justified (being an all-loving God and all) to punish children, and their children and so on, for their ancestors' (different individual human beings') sins?
Also,
"but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God. You shall not do any work, either you, your son or your daughter, your male or female slave, your work animal, or the resident alien within your gates. For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them; but on the seventh day he rested. That is why the LORD has blessed the sabbath day and made it holy."
I can't see this commandment to make any sense except if you presuppose God really did create the world in 6 days time, which is not a view many people hold nowadays (thankfully).
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KeithS
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Posted 07/28/12
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#48
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Quote: Originally Posted by SeekingTruth
I'm trying my best not to doubt my beliefs and will continue doing so. This statement witnesses powerfully to the presence your faith. You would not be concerned enough to try, if it were not for the faith you have. You definitely have the faith of a mustard seed described in Luke 17:6: He replied, "If you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, 'Be uprooted and planted in the sea,' and it will obey you. My observation is that your struggle seems to be reconciling the world you live in with the biblical texts and your understanding of God. You have an analytical mind. If you are like me, unresolved questions make you uncomfortable.
God deniers mock and belittle Christians as ignorant, stupid, gullible, irrational, illogical, unscientific, and even deluded. A strong analytical and skeptical mind can help you tremendously in pushing past the emotions of shame or embarrassment this characterization of Christians might cause you to feel. Like Archsage, I believe very strongly that your desire to seek Truth will lead you to it.
Your analytical mind gives you an advantage in finding Truth, so I’m actually a bit excited by your questions. Such questions are not, in my opinion, double-mindedness, so much as evidence of faith and a desire to find Truth. They should be resolved, and you should not ignore them. Question the answers you if they don't seem right to you. Reject answers that don't make sense. A Christian worldview should result in a framework of beliefs that are consistent with God's word, but also logically consistent and well reasoned.
Our ability to reason is part of what makes us “in God's image”. Reasoning and questioning while sincerely seeking with an open mind leads to a belief in God that is stable, grounded, and unshakable. I’m a very analytical and skeptical science-loving person. It took years of analysis and questioning, but I am absolutely convinced that faith isn’t needed to believe in God, the evidence is more than sufficient. Placing your faith in God, rather than the world, yourself, science, or something else, is the real challenge. Quote: Originally Posted by SeekingTruth
It's regarding prayer. Is it effective? It's an intellectual doubt about the nature of prayer and nothing against God Himself. I will formulate my question this way: Wouldn't the death of innocents (due to sickness and other naturalistic causes, not moral evil), diverse tragedies, etc. indicate that it is determined how things would turn out anyway? Prayer works, and is very effective. Not every prayer is answered immediately, or in the way we expect. It is not an insult to God to ask any question that is on your mind. He knows it is on your mind already. In your prayers, ask God to show you that your prayers are heard, and He will show you. The answer may or may not be immediate. It is likely the answer will not come in the way you have in mind, in a way you would expect, or even in a way you could have imagined. God answered this prayer for me in a way that was supernatural, but more convincing than it would have been if I’d heard His audible voice. About the death of innocents, pain, and suffering note that Jesus and his most devoted followers experienced plenty of abuse, pain, and suffering. Christianity doesn’t assure God’s intervention to prevent bad things from happening, though prayer does produce miraculous results when what is requested aligns with God’s will. What your faith can do is give you a perspective on pain and suffering so that it doesn’t affect you the same way. Your circumstances may cause you to worry. In answer to prayer, God may change the circumstances, or he may help with the worry. Think about the Christians who infuriated Caesar by singing and praising God as they were being killed in the Roman games. About everything being determined ahead of time, I’d say the answer is no, though there are some Christians who believe things are predestined. There are two reasons, I don’t believe in predestination, one is the free will that Archsage mentioned. The other is that I have witnessed acts of God that were objectively impossible. I’m not a pastor or a young earth creationist either, by the way. I’m a research scientist whose job is harvesting energy from deep ocean geothermal sources.
If nobody else answers your first and last questions, I'll come back later. I have to go for now.
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Cata
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Posted 07/28/12
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#49
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Quote: Originally Posted by SeekingTruth
A few concerns of mine regarding the ten commandments
"You shall not make for yourself an idol or a likeness of anything in the heavens above or on the earth below or in the waters beneath the earth; you shall not bow down before them or serve them. For I, the LORD, your God, am a jealous God, inflicting punishment for their ancestors’ wickedness on the children of those who hate me, down to the third and fourth generation"
To put it simply and in as few words as possible, this gravely contradicts God's supposed image, doesn't it?
God is supposed to be all-loving. Here's another bible quote: “Love is always patient and kind; it is never jealous, love is never boastful or conceited; it is never rude or selfish; it does not take offense, and is not resentful.(...)" Hmm, when reading the Old Testament you do have to take into account that God is personified in a lot of places. God, for example, cannot be jealous in the human sense because, being maximally great, he cannot be motivated by a desire for something he doesn't have--because being maximally great he already has it. I would see this the way that a lot of pastors actually see it--i.e. God is jealous in the sense that he wants us believe in him and not in man's works. In this case, jealousy is different in the sense that he wants our beliefs to be in him and not in a different place. Basically, to say this is a contradiction with God's love is equivocation. Ancient Hebrew had, what, 8000 words? So it's not like the authors had a choice. They painted a picture to get across the meaning. Quote: Also, how is it justified (being an all-loving God and all) to punish children, and their children and so on, for their ancestors' (different individual human beings') sins? The children are sinful too, being the offspring of sinners. It has to do with original sin--i.e. man chose to sin, so sin entered the world. This could be interpreted in a lot of ways, such as Adam's sin just being the first sin (before the first sin there is no sin in the world, is there?) but regardless the children are/would be sinners anyway, at least under molinism. I'm not exactly sure about child salvation myself. But it shouldn't affect Christian's faith because it's irrelevant to us, as we ought to teach children about the gospel anyway since they'l need to know it when they grow up. Quote: Also,
"but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God. You shall not do any work, either you, your son or your daughter, your male or female slave, your work animal, or the resident alien within your gates. For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them; but on the seventh day he rested. That is why the LORD has blessed the sabbath day and made it holy." I can't see this commandment to make any sense except if you presuppose God really did create the world in 6 days time, which is not a view many people hold nowadays (thankfully).
You have to realize that on the Sabbath the Jews were supposed to honor God. He set aside a day for them to honor him and take a break from their daily work. I'm not a theological expert though. I don't know exactly why so and so is in the Bible. It's just there.
But if you really don't know why God would make that commandment--just remember we don't exactly need to know the explanation for everything in order to believe or be saved. It might be annoying, yes, to not know the answer to something, but not knowing it is in no way a logical obstacle for faith.
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KeithS
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Posted 07/28/12
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#50
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SeekingTruth, the video link you posted made perfect sense to me. Aside from Daniel Dennett’s assumptions of godlessness what he said made perfect sense. I think it is entirely likely that God wired people to like sweets, in part because it is a good energy source, but perhaps also because many sweet fruits also contain vitamin C. As for Dennett’s assumption that unguided evolution explains why we love sweets, a natural question to ask him would be why don’t we like fat even more? Fat provides even more energy than sugar per ounce, and people who don’t get meat proteins in their diet often end up with malnutrition. Quote: Originally Posted by SeekingTruth
"but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God. You shall not do any work, either you, your son or your daughter, your male or female slave, your work animal, or the resident alien within your gates. For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them; but on the seventh day he rested. That is why the LORD has blessed the sabbath day and made it holy." I can't see this commandment to make any sense except if you presuppose God really did create the world in 6 days time, which is not a view many people hold nowadays (thankfully).
It makes sense regardless if you think the day’s described in Genesis were actual, allegorical, or “God days” of unknown length. Not also that the first and last intervals in the creation account are open-ended, and could be any length. You don’t have to take the Genesis account literally to accept that there were 7 intervals to creation. Mark 2:23-27 is instructive 23 And it came to pass, that he went through the corn field... STOP! How is this possible? The Iroquois didn’t give corn to the Europeans until 1779? Corn a the term used in Old English to describe many different grains. So the word corn here is not maize (what Americans call corn). This illustrates the problem translating from Hebrew and Greek to English. That’s why it helps to study the Bible.
OK, picking up where we left off: 23 And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn. 24 And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful? 25 And he said unto them, Have ye never read what David did, when he had need, and was an hungerd, he, and they that were with him? What Jesus is saying is that the Jewish Pharisees were making far more out of the idea of not working on the Sabbath, than was intended. The Pharisees had rules (made by men, not God) about how far a person could walk on the Sabbath. Note also that it was the disciples plucking the ears of corn, not Jesus. The message I take from this commandment (at minimum) is that God wants us to take at least 1 in 7 days away from our work, and that this day should include some time with Him. 26 How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and did eat the shewbread, which is not lawful to eat but for the priests, and gave also to them which were with him? 27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: 28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath. The above should make it clear that God made the Sabbath for man’s benefit, not to make man a slave to a bunch of rules the Pharisees made up. Quote: Originally Posted by SeekingTruthA few concerns of mine regarding the ten commandments"You shall not make for yourself an idol or a likeness of anything in the heavens above or on the earth below or in the waters beneath the earth; you shall not bow down before them or serve them. For I, the LORD, your God, am a jealous God, inflicting punishment for their ancestors’ wickedness on the children of those who hate me, down to the third and fourth generation" To put it simply and in as few words as possible, this gravely contradicts God's supposed image, doesn't it?
The doctrine that God is a jealous God comes from the Old Testament books of the law of Moses. The "jealousy" is always in the context of idol worship, beginning in the Ten Commandments of Exodus 20. - "You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, (Exodus 20:5)
- for you shall not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God-- (Exodus 34:14)
- "For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God. (Deuteronomy 4:24)
- 'You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, and on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, (Deuteronomy 5:9)
- for the LORD your God in the midst of you is a jealous God; otherwise the anger of the LORD your God will be kindled against you, and He will wipe you off, the face of the earth. (Deuteronomy 6:15)
What these five verses have in common is that they all share the same Hebrew adjective, qannâ'  (Strong's H7067),translated with the English word "jealous." The interesting thing about this word is that it is only used in reference to God. In no instance is the word qannâ' used to describe human jealousy. The reason that God is "jealous" is because He wants people to choose to love Him. Jesus said that the most important commandment was to love God.God does not want us to waste out time worshipping pretend gods that do not exist. Whereas God's "jealousy" is primarily restricted to a jealousy over the worship of idols that competes with His love to prevent a dedicated relationship with Him, jealousy between people takes on quite a number of forms. Two different Hebrew words are used to describe human jealousy. The Hebrew verb qânâ' (Strong's H7065) refers to a passionate jealousy or envy.The Hebrew noun qin'âh (Strong's H7068) takes on a wide range of meanings from sexual passion (or jealousy) to a zeal for God to anger or envy.The exact meaning (and the English translation is usually determined from the context. For more go to http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/jealous_god.html As for the apparent generational curse, a good explanation can be found at: http://www.tektonics.org/print.php4
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SeekingTruth
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Posted 07/29/12
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#51
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Thank you KeithS and Cata for the detailed answers that help me greatly! I really appreciate you guys (Archsage and all the others included too!) and I know whenever I have new questions I can ask them here and get good answers. You guys are awesome.
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SeekingTruth
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Posted 07/31/12
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#52
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I understand the usual properties accredited to God, but I can't understand something. How does it fit into the image of a necessary and perfect being to have three distinct personalities? And why is it particularly a "Father", a "Son" and a "Holy Spirit" out of all possibilities?
I've been reading the New Testament by the way. How do you reconcile with passages that would seem to indicate that Jesus thought the end of the world would come within the lifetime of his followers?
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troyjs
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Posted 07/31/12
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#53
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SeekingTruth,
There have been a number of arguments put forward for the encessity of a Trinitarian relationship within God, and you may find them interesting.
I personally do not find them satisfactory, but I will atleast give you direct you to some resources. Briefly, it is argued that 3 persons are required for all the necessary attributes of God to be exemplified. God actually, rather than potentially, loves perfectly, because there is more than one person within the Trinity. This love is, upon further argumentation, said to require 3 persons, as one Persons idea would be essentially non-distinct from God Himself, and therefore God's knowledge of Himself implies there being atleast 2 persons which share the same essence, but are really distinct. The 2 persons have a relationship which analogously spirates the procession of the third person, as this person would proceed from both the first 2 persons. This Trinitarian relationship would be sufficient to account for the attributes of God, as well as the particular relationships between the persons, and the overall relationship of the Trinity. A fourth person would be superfluous and hence would be non-necessary.
There are other views on the Trinity, but I think it is best to leave those questions where we have no idea, left alone until we have reasons to affirm a particular view, or have been given means to know which view is to be preferred.
http://readingthesumma.blogspot.com.au/2010/10/question-27-procession-of-divine.html
http://www.reasonablefaith.org/a-formulation-and-defense-of-the-doctrine-of-the-trinity
As for Jesus and the End of the World, I recommend you consider the particular views regarding what Jesus actually believed. There really isn't a strong case for the contention that Jesus believed that the end would come before the lifetime of His disciples.
I recommend a good Commentary, and they can be found on the internet for free:
Here is an oldie but a goodie:
http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/commentaries/?action=getBookSections&cid=1&source=1
For more scholarly works, please feel free to ask.
kind regards
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SeekingTruth
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Posted 08/01/12
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#54
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Thanks troyjs, this was a very clear and good answer.
Well, I'm really full of questions. This next one is a little bit hard to put into words too. It's established that God is maximally good and wants us to come to him, not be decieved, etc. Yet, many religions exist. I can't fully reconcile with this in light of the previously mentioned fact. Now I understand that it could be argued as a part of "free will", to invent your own religion (for example Islam) or derivation (for example Mormonism) without God interfering. Still, I just can't seem to shake off that well-known feeling of doubt which comes to many of us when faced with all these other religions. Why would mine, which is only one of them (and is similar to many others of the same sort - doctrines, prophets, miraculous events, etc. - making it very "human" like), be true? Or rather, the only truth?
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SeekingTruth
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Posted 08/01/12
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#55
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Archsage wrote this and I can't remember how to quote someone (how do you do it again?), so I'll just copy it.
"It is us who make our personalities the way they are, not the other way around. Our personalities are a reflection of our volition (will).
Our will is not something we develop. Either you have it or you don't. If you don't have it, you're like a rock, or a river. You move not because you want to, but because gravity forces you. Either you have will or you don't. If you don't have it, you're like a computer. You compute, but you do not think. You operate, but you do not act.
You're 'will' is what characterizes your essence. Your personality, on the other hand, is crafted by your will, as well as circumstance. That is why your personality changes on what you want to do/be like, and why it changes depending on who your company is."
I've thought about this and came to the conclusion that we are not really conscious of ourselves without the presence of a personality. If it is only a pure volition that survives without any distinct feature, it really isn't "I" that survive. I associate this pure volition with the mind of newborns. I doubt they'd think of anything beside their physical needs, the very same needs that cease after death. Following this line of thought, the afterlife would be a state of not thinking anything at all, just existing without being mindful and... well, conscious of ourselves. Which would mean "we" cease to exist.
Interestingly, near-death/post-death experiences and scripture seems to indicate that we keep our personality and thoughts after death. But isn't our personality dependent upon our brainstate, upbringing, social circumstances and the like? How could it survive then the death of the brain? Newborns would be again a good example of what a pure "mind" would be without the baggage of the affected and influenced brain, wouldn't they?
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troyjs
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Posted 08/01/12
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#56
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SeekingTruth,
Quote: It's established that God is maximally good and wants us to come to him
That is not quite correct. that is what a lot of christians believe, but the persons of the Trinity love each other more, than they love us humans, in the sense that the priority goes to the persons of the Trinity, and not to us.
What that has to do with your question though, is that God will not desire us to come to Him, if that means the persons of the Trinity do not love each other perfectly -- which is what would happen. Let me explain.
The persons of the Trinity want to express their trinitarian love, and have chosen to do this by making creatures who have the capacity to love God. The Father shows his love to the Son and Spirit, by rewarding us when we love the Son and Spirit, and likewise with the other persons of the Trinity. The Father continues to show His love for the Son and Spirit, by removing his blessings from us, when we fail to love the Son and Spirit. In theology, this is called the 'Covenant of Works'. God continues to provide for us when we love the persons of the Trinity, but when we fail to love the Trinity, God removes his blessings from us in order that His expression of trinitarian love will remain perfectly expressed.
Because the persons of the Trinity love each other, they will not necessarily desire sinners to come to God, but rather, they will desire to show their love for each other by removing the blessings from sinners -- this is called punishment or Hell.
The question is though, why would God create a world in which there would exist sinners in the first place, and for some people to go to Hell? We have already answered part of this question, in that everything God does, is primarily out of trinitarian love. The exact question is:
'Why does God choose to express perfect love, in a way in which some people suffer, or do not come to Him'?
Part of the answer, is that when God saves sinners, He creates people who have a greater capacity to love the Trinity, than if they had never sinned. The more we have been forgiven, the more we can be grateful for. This is part of the reason. The other part of the reason is that by creating people who will ultimately not come to Him, God completely and perfectly expresses trinitarian love in every possible way, or throughout the whole spectrum of possible types of creatures. God could have created a world in which every single person came to Him, however that does not express either to those saved, or to the persons of the Trinity, the magnitude of the grace given to those who are saved, or the amount of love that the Father has for the Son and Spirit.
God wants to express His love for the persons of the Trinity in the greatest, most expressive way possible, and that includes His removal of His providence from some sinners, and His gift of grace to others.
There is the problem here, that one feels sorry for those one believes will not be saved, because those who are not saved are no worse than those who are saved. The question is, 'Why am I saved, whereas they are not? That is not fair!'
That is exactly the point though. Because it is unfair, those who receive the gift of grace based upon no merits of their own, will see that those who are not saved, are receiving what the saved themselves really deserve. The sort of anger one may feel at the unfairness, is the springboard from where the saved can be really grateful for the salvation they receive, because they will perceive the graciousness of that which they receive, and hence be able to thank God in gratitude, as long as they appreciate the gift of salvation.
The saved person, can always ask the question, 'Why me?', and see that the grace received really is a gift, and by contemplating the fact that some people will not be saved, we are confronted with this question (why me?), all the more clearly.
As for the truth of the other religions, Christianity has an answer to the question of 'How do I know which one to choose?' The answer is, that God chooses for us. Jesus is the primary source of all knowledge, because He is the Truth and the Teacher/Rabbi. We do not even have to know that Jesus is the only one who can solve this problem for us -- He providentially guides us so that we will eventually learn the Truth. The Bible has given some pointers, which guide us to the truth of Christianity:
We are all sinners
We can not 'make-up' for our sins..
Those 2 facts point us to the natural helplessness we all have as human beings.
The next points, are only knowable through Revelation, ie., the Bible:
We can be right or good in God's eyes, if we are identified with Jesus
We can have the just requirements of our sin dealt with, if we are identified with someone who has fulfilled those just requirements.
This concept of self-identification, means that Jesus identifies Himself as if He were us, like a proxy. He then fulfills the requirements of the Covenant of Works. When He does this, because He has identified Himself with us, His good acts are considered to be our acts, and our evil acts are considered to be His sinful acts. The theological terms are imputation, and 'union with Christ'.
Union with Christ is where sinners become one with Christ, as if the relationship between sinner and Christ constitutes one entity. The Bible calls the Church, the Bride of Christ, and as you may recall, the Bible also says that a husband leaves his parents and joins himself to His wife, and the 2 become 1 flesh. The Bible also says that nothing can separate us from Him.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_with_Christ
I hope that helps. For more resources, please feel free to ask.
kind regards
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SeekingTruth
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Posted 08/01/12
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#57
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Troyjs, I see you have a very well thought-out and interesting view. But from this standpoint of yours, what would be the reason for God to create us? If we accept the scripture, we must remember it's not just us and God. There are the spiritual beings called angels too, who also have free will (some of them even left God after all) and thus are capable of recieving grace or punishment in light of their relationship with the Son and the Holy Spirit. So why do we exist?
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Archsage
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Posted 08/01/12
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#58
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Quote: Originally Posted by SeekingTruth
Troyjs, I see you have a very well thought-out and interesting view. But from this standpoint of yours, what would be the reason for God to create us? If we accept the scripture, we must remember it's not just us and God. There are the spiritual beings called angels too, who also have free will (some of them even left God after all) and thus are capable of recieving grace or punishment in light of their relationship with the Son and the Holy Spirit. So why do we exist?
I think your question is, "What is the reason why God made us?", right? Then the answer would be, to be the image and likeness of God on earth.
Psalms 8
3 When I consider Your heavens, the work of Your fingers, The moon and the stars, which You have ordained; 4 What is man that You take thought of him, And the son of man that You care for him? 5 Yet You have made him a little lower than God, And You crown him with glory and majesty! 6 You make him to rule over the works of Your hands; You have put all things under his feet, 7 All sheep and oxen, And also the beasts of the field, 8 The birds of the heavens and the fish of the sea, Whatever passes through the paths of the seas. |
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troyjs
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Posted 08/01/12
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#59
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SeekingTruth,
Archsage is correct. Thanks Arch ;-)
We have a capacity that even angels do not possess. Because we have been given a world which we could never ever finish cultivating and understanding, we always have the privilege and task of reigning by the works of our hands. If I can use the words of Mufasa from The Lion King, "From the smallest ant, to the leaping antelope", and furthermore, to the galaxies and star-clusters which array our boundless sky, we have a world in which we can create, form, govern, express, in art, music, works of charity, works of service, the attributes of God. God is the master-artist, and the Universe is His masterpiece, which culminates in eternal joy and beauty.
kind regards
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