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Damoksta
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Posted 07/10/12
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#31
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@Damoksta: Thank you! You raise some interesting points but I find your view questionable. You mention arguments for the supernatural to justify your doubts about morals being subjective, but that's just exactly what they are. Arguments. Not proof, not even physical evidence. Now, it's important to note that I'm not questioning their credibility, I just find your "in the face of supernaturalism" claim to be unjustified and dependent on a subjective view of the world.
1. The arguments themselves are based on empirical observations and data. If the premise are valid, the conclusion then necessarily follows.
2. IF you're looking for proof of God, you're never going to get it, at least 2 good reasons:
i) Proof of God may prove His existence... but does it make you want to follow Him? If not, would it be better for there to be an actual proof and force people to knowingly live in a state of constant rebellion; or convincing arguments with empirical support that people can choose either to not believe and then carry on with their lives; or believe and then choose to reach out to Him?
ii) God actually wants people to freely come to Him - in other words, those who actually have the desire for Him. A proof necessitates coming to Him, less you live in active rebellion. I for one believe that if there is proof that God exists and you knowingly want to live life your way, the idea of waking up every morning knowing that you whole purpose in life is to rebel against what you are created to do is either going to make you feel prolonged guilt or needing to make an active decision to rebel is going to drive you insane.
Quote: Now, onto your second point. Why should morals be any more grounded than that? If we accredit then to evolutionary and social processes, the question is not "how we got to know morality" but rather "how we developed morality from absolute zero". You presuppose from the very beginning that morals are objective.
But is morality then objective or subjective?
If morality is subjective, there is absolutely nothing wrong with you running over someone with a car - whoever that got run over is merely the unlucky zebra that was too slow for the lion, right? And what about rape - if a female close to you get raped, if evolutionary naturalism is true she should actually take it gladly knowing that she is doing the human race a good thing by accepting the propagation of the genetic seeds of the male that manage to overpower her through physical prowess and cunning, right?
If you refuse to accept the above two examples, you therefore reject the notion that there is no such thing as evil. In order for evil to exist, there needs to be a moral law and hence a moral lawgiver. The moral lawgiver component is what makes it objective.
Quote: Concerning your answer to my second question: It isn't about guilt. It's the pain of losing him/her forever, knowing that he/she suffers etc. It certainly wouldn't fit into the picture of eternal happiness heaven promises.
Firstly, I find it fascinating that you object to eternal joy and Heaven because of a hypothethical situation involving somebody else. If biblical salvation and the relationship with the Christian God is a personal one, what does it have to do with someone else? But distraction asides...
How could there be the sort of pain of separation you are describing if there is no guilt?
If you have done absolutely what you should as a disciple of Christ, and God has done absolutely all He could to convince the hypothetical partner of yours to come to Him freely and in spite of all these she knowingly refused and therefore signed her own 'death' warrant, can you actually feel sad/regret about the situation?
And even if you want to force some sort of irrational sadness onto the situation, how do you actually know the amount of eternal joy and wonder stack to this sadness?
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BeefEraser15
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Posted 07/10/12
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#32
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Quote: Originally Posted by STIn a sense, from the view of the naturalistic explanation, it wouldn't be wrong. Didn't our morals constantly develop throughout history? What we see as a wicked, horrible turn now could be considered right after a good amount of time spent brainwashing. … This is also not a good argument because there was a time when slavery was not considered to be wrong by most people, which is a testimony to the fact that morals depend on the subject, is it not? Not necessarily. It could just as well be that our moral knowledge increases and develops over time as we figure out how we ought to treat one another. That is, it could be that there are objective moral principles that we discover over time, much like how there’s order in nature that we've uncovered over time with science. As you said: Quote: Originally Posted by ST
Of course, thinkers of that hypothetical time could begin reasoning and logically determining that jews, gypsies and the rest are not in any way lesser than aryans and a revolution would come. People who were around when slavery was the status quo believed that we should respect humanity, but didn’t believe that black people were truly human or worthy of their respect. Once they realized that black people are fully human and are just as worthy of respect as white people, people began to oppose slavery. In short, the fact that our moral beliefs change doesn’t imply that morality changes—it simply means that we haven’t figured everything out yet.
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SeekingTruth
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Posted 07/21/12
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#33
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Sorry for my long abscence. I'd like to ask a few new questions for theists only, since they don't make sense from an atheist perspective.
#3. What is the soul then? Is it how D'souza describes it: "the brain is a CD player, the soul are the soundwaves"? From where I stand, scientifically-aware christians are only left with the dualism theory of the mind.
#4. What is heaven in the christian view? I've heard many contradictory answers. Is it non-existence until the bodily resurrection? Or are our souls preserved until then in some form capable of thinking and interacting with others?
#5. The hiddenness of God. /rant/ A little back story: I might have cancer. The data from my blood is not in yet, but all the evidence indicates something bad. It's swollen lymph nodes, but swollen in a way that only leaves different forms of cancer as possibilites (instead of infections/inflammation) because its solid, not reactive, echo-poor, doesn't hurt at all, etc. Sure, its not always terminal even if its cancer, but it does bring me face to face with my mortality on an emotional level. I'd like to know what to expect in the worst case scenario. //rant/ Why is God hidden? Any way to experience His presence on a higher level?
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Archsage
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Posted 07/21/12
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#34
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Quote: Originally Posted by SeekingTruth
Sorry for my long abscence. I'd like to ask a few new questions for theists only, since they don't make sense from an atheist perspective.
#3. What is the soul then? Is it how D'souza describes it: "the brain is a CD player, the soul are the soundwaves"? From where I stand, scientifically-aware christians are only left with the dualism theory of the mind.
I tend not to use terms like "soul", as they have differing connotative and denotative meanings to each person, within each circumstance of use. I'd suppose that generally when we talk about one's souls, and God saving your soul (as opposed to your body, which will die, indeed must die), one is referring to your own essence of existence, characterized by, but perhaps not defined by, your own volition.
Quote: Originally Posted by SeekingTruth
#4. What is heaven in the christian view? I've heard many contradictory answers. Is it non-existence until the bodily resurrection? Or are our souls preserved until then in some form capable of thinking and interacting with others?
Heaven is not "non-existence". Heaven is a 'dimension' of existence where the non-physical dwell. When you die, you are dead. The example used is "asleep". Like with no dreams, just asleep. Pretty much 'gone'. And then you are resurrected, as in, you awake, but with a body that is alive, not dead. For those in the Christ, you die but aren't caught into some oblivion like dreamless sleep awaiting for resurrection. (though you will be waiting for resurrection) You are taken into Heaven, to be with God, until that day.
Quote: Originally Posted by SeekingTruth
#5. The hiddenness of God. /rant/ A little back story: I might have cancer. The data from my blood is not in yet, but all the evidence indicates something bad. It's swollen lymph nodes, but swollen in a way that only leaves different forms of cancer as possibilites (instead of infections/inflammation) because its solid, not reactive, echo-poor, doesn't hurt at all, etc. Sure, its not always terminal even if its cancer, but it does bring me face to face with my mortality on an emotional level. I'd like to know what to expect in the worst case scenario. //rant/ Why is God hidden? Any way to experience His presence on a higher level?
God is hidden from us because of sin. Of course, that really isn't so much a problem anymore because of Jesus. So, if you want to get to the Father, you have to go through Him. But its not an instantaneous thing, we're you'll automatically experience divinity and be caught up in a whirlwind into heaven, haha. Just like with everything you have to build it up slowly. Build up your relationship, your knowledge, your strength, your faith. Prayer is very important, and Love for God perhaps the integral thing about it.
And you have to note that there are those who do not want you to come to God. As in, they are seriously intent on keeping you worldly, or lost in some false spirituality, or what have you. Because the soul that loves God does not die. I think The Screwtape Letters is an amazing work of satirical literature that explains this point well, if you're interested. A very light, enjoyable, but also very serious and thought-provoking read.
By the way, would you like for me to pray for your health? Or perhaps it might be better for you this way, for if you had not been suffering the way you are you would not have been so inclined to seek God? I'll be with you no matter the choice you make.
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SeekingTruth
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Posted 07/22/12
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#35
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Thanks Archsage!
"I tend not to use terms like "soul", as they have differing connotative and denotative meanings to each person, within each circumstance of use. I'd suppose that generally when we talk about one's souls, and God saving your soul (as opposed to your body, which will die, indeed must die), one is referring to your own essence of existence, characterized by, but perhaps not defined by, your own volition."
Could you elaborate on this more? Anything you might add? Perhaps rephrase it a little? It interests me greatly, but due to English not being my native language I can't grasp it fully. (For example I had to look up the word volition and the idea is still fuzzy).
"Heaven is not "non-existence". Heaven is a 'dimension' of existence where the non-physical dwell. When you die, you are dead. The example used is "asleep". Like with no dreams, just asleep. Pretty much 'gone'. And then you are resurrected, as in, you awake, but with a body that is alive, not dead. For those in the Christ, you die but aren't caught into some oblivion like dreamless sleep awaiting for resurrection. (though you will be waiting for resurrection) You are taken into Heaven, to be with God, until that day."
So how do you imagine this "heaven-dimension" in the presence of God while waiting for the resurrection? Would it only be the two (or should I say four, haha) of us, or would others also be there capable of interacting?
"
God is hidden from us because of sin. Of course, that really isn't so much a problem anymore because of Jesus. So, if you want to get to the Father, you have to go through Him. But its not an instantaneous thing, we're you'll automatically experience divinity and be caught up in a whirlwind into heaven, haha. Just like with everything you have to build it up slowly. Build up your relationship, your knowledge, your strength, your faith. Prayer is very important, and Love for God perhaps the integral thing about it.
And you have to note that there are those who do not want you to come to God. As in, they are seriously intent on keeping you worldly, or lost in some false spirituality, or what have you. Because the soul that loves God does not die. I think The Screwtape Letters is an amazing work of satirical literature that explains this point well, if you're interested. A very light, enjoyable, but also very serious and thought-provoking read.
By the way, would you like for me to pray for your health? Or perhaps it might be better for you this way, for if you had not been suffering the way you are you would not have been so inclined to seek God? I'll be with you no matter the choice you make."
What's the relationship between our sins and His hiddenness? I don't understand why he would choose to be hidden because of that, maybe you can explain.
Loved The Screwtape Letters, just read it less than two weeks ago!
That's a very kind offer Archsage and it certainly couldn't hurt. Well, of course I'm deeply troubled by my current state and I'd love to be healthy, but if it comes to prayer, it's only fair if one asks God simply for help, regardless of what form it comes in. I'm grateful for any support.
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Archsage
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Posted 07/22/12
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#36
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Quote: Originally Posted by SeekingTruth
Thanks Archsage!
"I tend not to use terms like "soul", as they have differing connotative and denotative meanings to each person, within each circumstance of use. I'd suppose that generally when we talk about one's souls, and God saving your soul (as opposed to your body, which will die, indeed must die), one is referring to your own essence of existence, characterized by, but perhaps not defined by, your own volition."
Could you elaborate on this more? Anything you might add? Perhaps rephrase it a little? It interests me greatly, but due to English not being my native language I can't grasp it fully. (For example I had to look up the word volition and the idea is still fuzzy).
Oh, very sorry! I didn't remember that English wasn't your native language. I'll rephrase myself:
The term "soul" means a lot of things, to a lot of people, in a lot of ways. So it's not easy to understand what each person means in each circumstance. However, most of the time the term "soul" refers to the essence of your own self, which is characterized by (but not necessarily defined by) your own free will.
It is best to see it in a dualistic way. There is your body, a collection of particles arranged in a way that works like a machine with a computer. And then there is your "soul", the part that is called 'you', where you make your own choices and goals and even most of your actions.
You can experiment with this dualism if you want. If you ever find yourself fighting something that your body wants to do (a good example is with lust/sex), then it shows easily the difference between your body, and your soul (characterized by your own free will).
Quote: Originally Posted by "SeekingTruth"
"Heaven is not "non-existence". Heaven is a 'dimension' of existence where the non-physical dwell. When you die, you are dead. The example used is "asleep". Like with no dreams, just asleep. Pretty much 'gone'. And then you are resurrected, as in, you awake, but with a body that is alive, not dead. For those in the Christ, you die but aren't caught into some oblivion like dreamless sleep awaiting for resurrection. (though you will be waiting for resurrection) You are taken into Heaven, to be with God, until that day."
So how do you imagine this "heaven-dimension" in the presence of God while waiting for the resurrection? Would it only be the two (or should I say four, haha) of us, or would others also be there capable of interacting?
Imagine? "as it is written: "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him" [1 Corinthians 2:9]. I don't pretend to know much about it, and if I did, I suppose that would make it a lot less great than it should be.
But as for your question, I'm not sure what you mean about only "two" or "four" of us interacting?
Quote: Originally Posted by "SeekingTruth"" God is hidden from us because of sin. Of course, that really isn't so much a problem anymore because of Jesus. So, if you want to get to the Father, you have to go through Him. But its not an instantaneous thing, we're you'll automatically experience divinity and be caught up in a whirlwind into heaven, haha. Just like with everything you have to build it up slowly. Build up your relationship, your knowledge, your strength, your faith. Prayer is very important, and Love for God perhaps the integral thing about it.
And you have to note that there are those who do not want you to come to God. As in, they are seriously intent on keeping you worldly, or lost in some false spirituality, or what have you. Because the soul that loves God does not die. I think The Screwtape Letters is an amazing work of satirical literature that explains this point well, if you're interested. A very light, enjoyable, but also very serious and thought-provoking read.
By the way, would you like for me to pray for your health? Or perhaps it might be better for you this way, for if you had not been suffering the way you are you would not have been so inclined to seek God? I'll be with you no matter the choice you make."
What's the relationship between our sins and His hiddenness? I don't understand why he would choose to be hidden because of that, maybe you can explain.
God is Holy. He does not entertain sin, no can sin dwell within His presence. Only the sinless can stand before God, and not die. "20 But He said, “You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live.” [Exodus 33:20]
Which is in part why Jesus is so important. "Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. 2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure." [1 John 3:1-3]
(For some reason, the Church has failed to teach people about this as of late. They're too busy talking about how money and prosperity instead of God. The Holiness of God is, in a way, insane. Anyone who thinks they can be "worthy" of God except by Him excusing your faults is a seriously confused individual.)
God, knowing this, became a man and took on our sins, and instead of us being "forsaken" Jesus was "forsaken" and because of that we can be with God. All we have to do is humble ourselves to be innocent and carefree as children and believe. The Bible calls this child-like faith "foolishness". Because it was meant to put to shame human wisdom; God purposely made the Gospel very, very simple, basic, childish, and "foolish to those who are stumbling". [1 Corinthians 1:18-25]
Quote: Originally Posted by "SeekingTruth"
Loved The Screwtape Letters, just read it less than two weeks ago!
That's a very kind offer Archsage and it certainly couldn't hurt. Well, of course I'm deeply troubled by my current state and I'd love to be healthy, but if it comes to prayer, it's only fair if one asks God simply for help, regardless of what form it comes in. I'm grateful for any support.
Then I'll be praying for you then! But you need to believe too, bro, if only a little bit. Else I'm unsure if God will say 'yes'. 6 But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind. 7 For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; 8 he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways. [James 1:6-8]
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SeekingTruth
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Posted 07/22/12
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#37
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Quote: Originally Posted by Archsage
Oh, very sorry! I didn't remember that English wasn't your native language. I'll rephrase myself:
The term "soul" means a lot of things, to a lot of people, in a lot of ways. So it's not easy to understand what each person means in each circumstance. However, most of the time the term "soul" refers to the essence of your own self, which is characterized by (but not necessarily defined by) your own free will.
It is best to see it in a dualistic way. There is your body, a collection of particles arranged in a way that works like a machine with a computer. And then there is your "soul", the part that is called 'you', where you make your own choices and goals and even most of your actions.
You can experiment with this dualism if you want. If you ever find yourself fighting something that your body wants to do (a good example is with lust/sex), then it shows easily the difference between your body, and your soul (characterized by your own free will.)
It's clear now, thanks. In your opinion, do we keep our personality after death? By that I mean those little things that make us individuals. Let me give you a random example. I like to play chess. Would that characteristic feature of me survive regardless of whether chess exists on the other side? Haha.
Quote: Originally Posted by Archsage
Imagine? "as it is written: "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him" [1 Corinthians 2:9]. I don't pretend to know much about it, and if I did, I suppose that would make it a lot less great than it should be.
But as for your question, I'm not sure what you mean about only "two" or "four" of us interacting?
Oh, that was just a little joke (to lighten up the mood a bit) about God being three persons in one.
I suppose my main question would be; if we are with God until the day of the bodily resurrection, are we alone with Him until then, or are we capable of interacting with other dead persons too? Just would like you guys' opinion on this since I have absolutely no knowledge concerning the matter.
Quote: Originally Posted by ArchsageGod is Holy. He does not entertain sin, no can sin dwell within His presence. Only the sinless can stand before God, and not die. " 20 But He said, “You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live.” [Exodus 33:20] Which is in part why Jesus is so important. "Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. 2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure." [1 John 3:1-3]
(For some reason, the Church has failed to teach people about this as of late. They're too busy talking about how money and prosperity instead of God. The Holiness of God is, in a way, insane. Anyone who thinks they can be "worthy" of God except by Him excusing your faults is a seriously confused individual.) God, knowing this, became a man and took on our sins, and instead of us being "forsaken" Jesus was "forsaken" and because of that we can be with God. All we have to do is humble ourselves to be innocent and carefree as children and believe. The Bible calls this child-like faith "foolishness". Because it was meant to put to shame human wisdom; God purposely made the Gospel very, very simple, basic, childish, and "foolish to those who are stumbling". [1 Corinthians 1:18-25]
So, what you're saying is that the hiddenness of God is due to the fact that anything affiliated with sin would be unable to face Him and therefore He doesn't show himself more clearly?
Quote: Originally Posted by Archsage
Then I'll be praying for you then! But you need to believe too, bro, if only a little bit. Else I'm unsure if God will say 'yes'. 6 But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind. 7 For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; 8 he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways. [James 1:6-8]
I'm trying my best not to doubt my beliefs and will continue doing so.
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SeekingTruth
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Posted 07/22/12
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#38
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One more question I would like to add relating to the last quote Archsage.
It's regarding prayer. Is it effective? It's an intellectual doubt about the nature of prayer and nothing against God Himself. I will formulate my question this way: Wouldn't the death of innocents (due to sickness and other naturalistic causes, not moral evil), diverse tragedies, etc. indicate that it is determined how things would turn out anyway?
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Archsage
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Posted 07/22/12
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#39
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Quote: Originally Posted by "SeekingTruth"
It's clear now, thanks. In your opinion, do we keep our personality after death? By that I mean those little things that make us individuals. Let me give you a random example. I like to play chess. Would that characteristic feature of me survive regardless of whether chess exists on the other side? Haha.
Well 'personality' is multifaceted. And it grows/evolves/develops with each successive event we experience. Furthermore, a lot of our personality is determined by our culture, our bodies, the people we hang around with, etc.. So because one's personality is so easily malleable, I think this question is a bit hard to answer accurately.
Oh, that was just a little joke (to lighten up the mood a bit) about God being three persons in one.
I suppose my main question would be; if we are with God until the day of the bodily resurrection, are we alone with Him until then, or are we capable of interacting with other dead persons too? Just would like you guys' opinion on this since I have absolutely no knowledge concerning the matter.
We certainly are. Hmm. I think this is a good way to demonstrate what I mean:
Revelation 7:9-17 9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; 10 and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, “ Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.”
11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying, “ Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen.”
13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?” 14 I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them. 16 They will hunger no longer, nor thirst anymore; nor will the sun beat down on them, nor any heat; 17 for the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd, and will guide them to springs of the water of life; and God will wipe every tear from their eyes.”
Emphasis added.
Quote: Originally Posted by SeekingTruth
So, what you're saying is that the hiddenness of God is due to the fact that anything affiliated with sin would be unable to face Him and therefore He doesn't show himself more clearly?
That's one reason. And there are others, though we may not know them all. For example, one other reason has to do with what Jesus was saying to Thomas, after His Resurrection. Well, it's better for you to see for yourself:
John 20:26-2926 After eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors having been shut, and stood in their midst and said, “ Peace be with you.” 27 Then He said to Thomas, “ Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing.” 28 Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.”
(Again, I added emphasis)
Quote: Originally Posted by "SeekingTruth"
It's regarding prayer. Is it effective? It's an intellectual doubt about the nature of prayer and nothing against God Himself. I will formulate my question this way: Wouldn't the death of innocents (due to sickness and other naturalistic causes, not moral evil), diverse tragedies, etc. indicate that it is determined how things would turn out anyway?
I'll be completely honest with you. You will be surprised, literally amazed at how faithfully petition-prayer works. It's like, you'll be asking for one thing, and God just says something like "no" (because it's not something that you should even be asking for, or you'll be asking in the wrong way, and your own conscience will affirm that). Or you'll be asking for another thing, and God will give it to you just in the way you asked! There are times when God says no not because you did wrong, but because you can endure without it. And then there are the times, these are the best ones, when you ask for something and God doesn't give it to you in the way that you asked for, but in a way that He decides to give it to you, which completely blows your idea out of the water.
Now, I'm not sure how the death of innocents has to do with anything. And I'm not completely sure what you mean by an "innocent"? Nonetheless, this may be going off into some other topic, so just to deal with it before it does, think about this for a while, it should help you in addressing your concern, I think:
Isaiah 57:1-2
The righteous man perishes, and no man takes it to heart; And devout men are taken away, while no one understands. For the righteous man is taken away from evil, 2 He enters into peace; They rest in their beds, Each one who walked in his upright way.
Reading the Bible is very helpful, you know? It isn't God nor can it save you. But it is called "divinely inspired" for a reason. It can only help you, the more you read it, the more of your questions will be answered (and, consequently, the more questions you'll have to ask!).
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SeekingTruth
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Posted 07/25/12
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#40
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##Just a flaw that occured to me, bear with me till I explain and I'd love to hear an answer from a christian perspective##
We're supposed to keep our personality after death, right? In heaven, with God, but especially in the new world the Bible promises. If what remains of us after death would just be a mere empty "thing", conscious but lacking any other feature that would make it an individual, death really is the end. But since most of our personality is determined by our upbringing and circumstances and can be explained away by neurosience and psychology, how does it fit into the idea of an afterlife? Surely it's impossible to imagine the bodily resurrection without keeping your personality.
Let's take it up a level. Abortion. Aborted fetuses are supposed to already have a soul, right? One might wonder how would the bodily resurrection be like to them. Would they have adult bodies with the intelligence of a new-born? Etc. You get the point.
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Cata
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Posted 07/26/12
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#41
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I don't think you can say with certainty what exactly it means to keep your personality after death. Personality includes interactions with physical objects, but after death the mind no longer interacts with the physical world. The bible doesn't clearly say what heaven is like (what we do have indicates that it is far, if not infinitely superior to our current state).
Of course, I'm interested in reading about dualism myself, so if there's anyone with a more thought-out position than mine I'll be sure to listen. 
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SeekingTruth
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Posted 07/26/12
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#42
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I understand where you're coming from, but even if you could explain away our souls in heaven without any personality and individuality, the problem arises with the promise of the new world and us getting renewed bodies.
I would like other responses too.
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Archsage
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Posted 07/26/12
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#43
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Quote: Originally Posted by SeekingTruth
##Just a flaw that occured to me, bear with me till I explain and I'd love to hear an answer from a christian perspective##
We're supposed to keep our personality after death, right? In heaven, with God, but especially in the new world the Bible promises. If what remains of us after death would just be a mere empty "thing", conscious but lacking any other feature that would make it an individual, death really is the end. But since most of our personality is determined by our upbringing and circumstances and can be explained away by neurosience and psychology, how does it fit into the idea of an afterlife? Surely it's impossible to imagine the bodily resurrection without keeping your personality.
Let's take it up a level. Abortion. Aborted fetuses are supposed to already have a soul, right? One might wonder how would the bodily resurrection be like to them. Would they have adult bodies with the intelligence of a new-born? Etc. You get the point.
One of the big problems with your question is that I don't think anyone is too sure of what "personality" is. What you do keep, for certain, is your will, which characterize and defines your personality. But your personality, even in every day life, changes constantly. And the fact that you can willingly change your personality goes to show that 'personality' isn't something essential to your nature, but only a consequence of it.
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SeekingTruth
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Posted 07/27/12
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#44
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Still, isn't our personality the very thing that makes us, well, us? When it changes, we ourselves change.
I'm not sure what do you exactly mean by will, but if I understand it right, isn't that also a thing that we develop? How could a newborn have this kind of "will"?
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Cata
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Posted 07/27/12
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#45
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Quote: Originally Posted by SeekingTruth
Still, isn't our personality the very thing that makes us, well, us? When it changes, we ourselves change.
I'm not sure what do you exactly mean by will, but if I understand it right, isn't that also a thing that we develop? How could a newborn have this kind of "will"?
I'm not sure if our personality can be considered us. When you talk about someone's personality, you talk about their responses to different situations. Their responses don't necessarily make them a person, it's their personhood that gives them a personality. Or so I would think.
I'm not sure about newborns going to heaven. Craig has an article about it somewhere... I don't remember exactly what he said.
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